to be or not to be.....

global · Post by **global** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:58 am

I am in a dilemma. i applied for naturalisation at NCS in jan. and got the approval last week. After I applied I left the UK within couple of days for my native country. I got a good job here now. I would like to stay here for couple of years.

now that the approval has come thru (my friend in the UK conveyed this to me - had given his address)......can I come to the UK - attend the ceremony and apply for UK passport and come back to my native country. Will that be ok ?

Any comments since I'll have to decide soon ...my friend told me little late and the ceremony is in two weeks time. thanx a lot.

bbdivo · Post by **bbdivo** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:03 am

Shouldnt be a problem! I would try and get over ASAP, unless circumstances don't allow it, you can change your ceremony date and in fact get a private ceremony if you want, however there is a time limit in which you must have your ceremony.

Edit:- also forgot, you need to keep in mind what your home country's stance is on dual nationality

global · Post by **global** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:11 am

thanks. i m from India. they dont allow dual nationality so I will have to forego it and take up an employment visa.

Post by **John** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:12 am

As long as you attend the Citizenship Ceremony within three months of the approval you should be OK. As soon as you get handed the Certificate of Naturalisation you will be British.

You will then have the ability to apply for a British Passport whenever you want, either immediately or at any later date.

Particularly if you arrange a private citizenship ceremony (at extra cost) and then apply for your British Passport in person and use the fast service, you could have that passport in about a week after arriving back in the UK.

global · Post by **global** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:41 am

Great. will it be a problem that I hv to return to India immediately in a week. Is there any minimum time I need to spend in UK after I get passport.

Post by **John** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:20 pm

After you get your Certificate of Naturalisation there is actually no compulsion to get a British Passport immediately. You could do that on your next trip, if that is want you want to do.

In answer to your answer, "Is there any minimum time I need to spend in UK after I get passport." ... no!

I shall let others comment upon whether your Indian passport remains valid after you are British. But you have already picked up on that point.

mhunjn · Post by **mhunjn** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:06 pm

Indian passport is not longer valid once you take up any other country's citizenship.
It is however a grey area, as it is 'legally' not valid, but whether anybody checks it is a question!
However, you could take up the Overseas Indian Citizenship, though, it will take a few weeks to get the paperwork through.

John wrote: I shall let others comment upon whether your Indian passport remains valid after you are British. But you have already picked up on that point.

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:32 pm

Indian passport is not longer valid once you take up any other country's citizenship.
It is however a grey area, as it is 'legally' not valid, but whether anybody checks it is a question!

Using an indian passport when you are no longer a citizen amounts to a criminal act and misrepresentation of your nationality. It may not be checked but would anyone really want to take a chance in a post 9/11 world ?
If it was ever checked you're pretty much guaranteed to be locked up.

basis · Post by **basis** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:29 pm

There is, however, a requirement by UK home office which u have agreed when applying for naturalisation i.e. to continue to make the UK as your home. Now if you have left so soon after applying and again just want to be here for passport purpose. I am not sure whether other members have picked upon this topic. If you already resident of another country it would be difficult to prove future intentions to stay.

global · Post by **global** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:22 pm

Hi John - thanks very much. just spoke to my friend he has booked me a ceremony in the last week of March. And then I will apply for UK passport. Someone told me I can get 5 years visa for India and convert to a PI card once I am back to India. I am exploring that - with this I really dont have to stay in the UK much after I get my UK passport.

I was loking at another thread of ILR 5 years etc. I think it is wise for me to take up the naturalisation available now. as the rule may change there and i may not be able to get it later. but wanted to make sure i dont have to stay in the Uk after oath or passport. somebody told me in the US one has to live for one year after getting citizenship. I wanted to make sure it is not applicable to uk.

global · Post by **global** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:28 pm

basis wrote:There is, however, a requirement by UK home office which u have agreed when applying for naturalisation i.e. to continue to make the UK as your home. Now if you have left so soon after applying and again just want to be here for passport purpose. I am not sure whether other members have picked upon this topic. If you already resident of another country it would be difficult to prove future intentions to stay.

I read the copy of the FORM AN again. It says - "3.3 If you are not married to a British citizen tell us in which country you intend to have your principal home if you are naturalised.'

So I think I left immedietly after applying may not matter as the requirement is to continue to have pricnipal home if naturalised. I would be naturalised only when my application is succesful right ?

Ofcourse after naturalised I would come back after three years or so. So considering that it should not matter. As John said there is not requirement to stay in UK after I get passport.

mhunjn · Post by **mhunjn** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:37 pm

Assuming that you get an Indian visa on your 'new' UK passport... can you actually work in India using that visa?... wouldn't you need to get an Indian WP till your get a PIO or OIC?...

global · Post by **global** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:13 pm

I think u r right. But many people told me that if i apply for PIO immediately upon return to India - I should be ok.

raikal · Post by **raikal** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:16 pm

Global,

What you can do is, Take the naturalization and go back to India.

1. Then apply for PIO card immediately. Mentioning that you are going to apply for British passport while in India.

2. Contact local British consulate in India for passport forms.
The form you get here in UK is different to the form you get in India.
You can even apply for the first passport from India.

If the Indian authorities insist that they need to see Brit passport then you do it first then PIO.

Good luck

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:40 pm

What you can do is, Take the naturalization and go back to India.

You're suggesting that the OP carries out a criminal act. As soon as he naturalises his Indian passport is invalid and he cannot travel to India without a british passport.
The only way he can do what you suggest is by entering India on his ( now invalid) Indian passport. Not something I would ever recommend or attempt to do myself as a day or two in lockup beckons and you could well be stuck in limbo if you are not admitted to India and your invalid India passport is confiscated. If you have no UK passport as a proof of your citizenship - airlines may refuse to carry you back if deported as just a naturalisation certificate is no proof of identity and both identity and citizenship need to be proved for international travel.

All in all not a recommended course of action at all. isn't it much simpler to get a UK passport ( you can get it in a few days after your ceremony), then get an Indian visa if you can't wait 3 weeks for a PIO card ( Indian visas are issued on a same day basis) and then apply for a PIO card or OCI from India. I guess you would not be able to start work in india till the appropriate PIO or OCI status comes through though as a normal tourist visa normally doesn't permit employment.

basis · Post by **basis** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:44 pm

raikal wrote:Global,

What you can do is, Take the naturalization and go back to India.

1. Then apply for PIO card immediately. Mentioning that you are going to apply for British passport while in India.

2. Contact local British consulate in India for passport forms.
The form you get here in UK is different to the form you get in India.
You can even apply for the first passport from India.

If the Indian authorities insist that they need to see Brit passport then you do it first then PIO.

Good luck

You cannot use Indian passport, the moment you take oath. So please dont do that - you dont want to celebrate your BC in jail that too Indian jail I hope.

And for PIO card you must have the UK passport. PIO card contains the passport number, place of issue etc and is valid, can exist only and only with a valid non-Indian passport.

I would suggest you take one month vacation / break - come to UK, take oath, apply for the UK passport and get PIO card. That's the best thing. It will also avoid you having to fly back to India so immediately after naturalisation which would make UK authorities to raise their eyebrows about your intention to use UK passport as glorious visa to many countries than making UK as the permanent home.

basis · Post by **basis** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:31 pm

and yes dont forget to register yourself once in India with the british high commission. You can do it onlie @ http://www.britishhighcommission.gov.uk ... 5785033373

raikal · Post by **raikal** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:18 pm

I know it is illegal...but people have got it in India like that before.
Before citizenship ceremony was introduced, the Naturalization certificates used come in the post. They used to redirect it to India.
Hence it was valid those days.

Now it may not but you can always argue that you dont have time to do that. If you have time , what lemses says should be right thing.

global · Post by **global** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:15 am

Thanks everyone for the help. Really useful info. I'll keep u posted on the events.

mhunjn · Post by **mhunjn** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:18 am

The whole point of the argument from 'basis' is that you cannot use an Indian passport for travel after the citizenship ceremony.
I can see your point that people have got around this earlier... but it still is a risk, and a big risk for that matter.

Before the ceremonies were introduced, the applicants still had to take an oath, albeit in front of a solicitor etc.

You cannot just argue that you don't have time... it's a very serious offence... and serious penalties, if caught.

raikal wrote:I know it is illegal...but people have got it in India like that before.
Before citizenship ceremony was introduced, the Naturalization certificates used come in the post. They used to redirect it to India.
Hence it was valid those days.

Now it may not but you can always argue that you dont have time to do that. If you have time , what lemses says should be right thing.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:08 am

The whole point of the argument from 'basis' is that you cannot use an Indian passport for travel after the citizenship ceremony.

In fact the chances of the Indian government ever discovering that you have aquired another citizenship are pretty slim. Although technically illegal to use your Indian passport after the citizenship ceremony, there is not really any way that the Indian government will know about it.

I'm not advocating doing this, just trying to point out that theoretically your passport becomes invalid the moment you swear allegance to the Queen, however in reality the Indian government will not actually know that you are no longer a citizen until you tell them.

basis · Post by **basis** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:11 am

mhunjn wrote: You cannot just argue that you don't have time... it's a very serious offence... and serious penalties, if caught.

And something that will haunt you for the lifetime.....think a million times before doing these things. It is like trying to risk your life by breaking signals to avoid a wait of two second at traffic light and worrying whether you were caught on camera or not. Atleast the penalties are not that sever here but here you could ruin your entire career, life by committing a criminal offence so serious. Never break immigration rules and what more do u want - UK passport, lifetime PR of India u have got. Why cant u spare a few weeks in the UK and get the matters straight.

tt · Post by tt » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:55 am

Interestingly enough, even security-conscious Australia has occasionally slipped up on this. I would expect the infamously over-bureaucratised state of India would do so even more.

One of Australia's leading architects of the Modernism movement, Harry Seidler, who has just died in Australia, left Austria (where he was born) in 1938, went to England, was interned (!), left for Canada, and also studied at Harvard, before emigrating to Australia in 1948, married, had children etc.

He got his Australian citizenship 10 years later.

In 1995, while Australian nationality law still ensured the losing of Australian citizenship once you voluntarily and subsequently picked up another citizenship (by the way, this law no longer exists - it's possible to have dual nationality in Australia now under all circumstances), this is what happened to poor Harry Seidler.

In 1985 the Austrian government restored his Austrian citizenship he lost due to the Nazi occupation in the 1930s.

It was only in late 2005 (after having a stroke) that Seidler found out the news that he had therefore lost his Australian citizenship from that time (1985). The Australian government had made that decision in 1996 without his knowledge.

There was a great Australian icon, bereft of Australian citizenship. He held amongst the highest of national awards and honours.

When enough refugee advocates protested, the Australian government announced that it would restore Seidler's Australian citizenship immediately (late 2005).

But read the last bit of the http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ ... click=true article here.

Mr Seidler has been issued with Australian passports as recently as March 2000, sat on the roll of electors, and become a Companion to the Order of Australia - all of which require citizenship.

So even IF the Indian Govt knew of the subsequent British citizenship, one wonders if the other hand of the Bureaucracy would know?

Post by **JAJ** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:52 am

tt wrote: It was only in late 2005 (after having a stroke) that Seidler found out the news that he had therefore lost his Australian citizenship from that time (1985). The Australian government had made that decision in 1996 without his knowledge.

There was a great Australian icon, bereft of Australian citizenship. He held amongst the highest of national awards and honours.

When enough refugee advocates protested, the Australian government announced that it would restore Seidler's Australian citizenship immediately (late 2005).

But read the last bit of the http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/ ... click=true article here.

Mr Seidler has been issued with Australian passports as recently as March 2000, sat on the roll of electors, and become a Companion to the Order of Australia - all of which require citizenship.

In this particular instance they revoked the 1996 decision, rather than restored his citizenship. So he was deemed to have remained an Australian citizen all along.

Basically, from 22 November 1984 to 3 April 2002, most Australians who acquired a foreign citizenship automatically lost Australian citizenship. However there was an element of intention in the law, and in cases where people thought they were applying for something else (such as recognition of an existing citizenship) then there was a work-around.

The rule on loss of citizenship was slightly different before 22 November 1984.

basis · Post by **basis** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:02 pm

Good faq on Aus citizenship

http://www.citizenship.gov.au/faq.htm Of course now we are discussing beyond the remit of the original discussion.

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to be or not to be.....

to be or not to be.....