Got refused for 'leave to remain'

[Jeri]

Hello!

Please help, I need some advice:

I met my Brit husband last Nov03 through a common friend and introduced us online. Through constant communication via email and phone calls our relationship developed. I decided to come over to UK last Jan04 and from then on we are living together. We got married last 10 March. Then I applied for 'leave to remain' at the Home Office and just got refused yesterday since they said I am currently holding a visitors visa that will expire on June04, which didnt meet their 6mon or more requirement.

What do I have to do now? How can we stay together if they don't grant me visa? I love my husband very much and do not want to live apart. My friend said I should have applied for Marriage Visa instead. Others said that I need to go back to my home country (Philippines) and apply for a spouse visa from there.

I am already confused, what is the best thing to do from this point?

Cheers.

[saraliz]

As of April 2003, people on visas valid for 6 months or less (excluding fiance visas) can no longer switch to a spouse visa whilst in the UK (this is to encourage people planning to get married to come to the UK on a fiance visa, rather than a tourist visa). You will need to go to your home country and apply for a spouse visa from there.

[Kayalami]

You should apply for a spouse visa at the British Embassy in Manila via the CAVA (courier) system which involves submitting settlement form VAF 2 and all supporting documentation. An in country application outside the scope of the immigration rules would be on the most compassionate of grounds and I cannot readily see any from your statement. Note that where all documents are submitted a spouse visa can be issued within 48 hours. However given the short nature of your relationship you are likely to be interviewed and this is where there may be delays if Manila has long queues for spousal/ other settlement visas.

Good Luck

[Jeri]

Thank you for the quick replies.

I already checked the website for the requirements, I want to bring all the relevant papers with me when I go home, any more suggestions what other important documents I will need? What do you think are my chances of granting a spouse visa? Here are some facts: I am worried bec I have resigned from my work in Manila last 16 Feb - wrong move for me since I thought everything will be ok here in UK. Then we are living with my husband's parents because we were thinking if I get a job here and saved enough money, we will get our own place. He moved in to his parents house just last year bec he 5yr old son lives in the same town with his ex-gf. His son stays with us on weekends. So the only supporting documents I can show are his bank statements, employement documents and some properties like his car. I am worried that it might not enough to show that he can support me, although I am pretty ok for the past 2months of staying with them. Both are parents are very supportive in our relationship. We just need this chance to move on.

Cheers!

[Kayalami]

Your situation as you describe shows some pros and cons in relation to para 281 of the immigration rules for leave to enter the UK as a spouse:

281. The requirements to be met by a person seeking leave to enter the United Kingdom with a view to settlement as the spouse of a person present and settled in the United Kingdom or who is on the same occasion being admitted for settlement are that:

(i) (a) the applicant is married to a person present and settled in the United Kingdom or who is on the same occasion being admitted for settlement; or

(b) the applicant is married to a person who has a right of abode in the United Kingdom or indefinite leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom and is on the same occasion seeking admission to the United Kingdom for the purposes of settlement and the parties were married at least 4 years ago, since which time they have been living together outside the United Kingdom; and

(ii) the parties to the marriage have met; and

(iii) each of the parties intends to live permanently with the other as his or her spouse and the marriage is subsisting; and

(iv) there will be adequate accommodation for the parties and any dependants without recourse to public funds in accommodation which they own or occupy exclusively; and

(v) the parties will be able to maintain themselves and any dependants adequately without recourse to public funds; and

(vi) the applicant holds a valid United Kingdom entry clearance for entry in this capacity.

pros
1. You are already married - i (a)
2. You live together - (ii) & (iii)
3. Your husband is in employment - (v)

cons
1. You do not have accomodation you occupy exclusively - (iv)
2. Your husband's son who he is likely to be paying Child Support for - (v)

IMHO the Entry Clearance Officer will focus on the the accomodation issue and probably just brush over the child support aspect unless your husband's income is very low. Low in this context means in relation to average living costs where you live although my understanding is that the ECO's have guidelines based on basic Income Support levels. As for the acccomodation I do not know the size of your in laws house but if it is a mansion then this is less of an issue. You need a letter from them saying that they are accomodating you in the short term until you are able to find your feet. It is more likly to be acceptable to the ECO if your in laws own the property as opposed to renting it. If it is rented then ECO will need to see docs from owner consenting to 4 adults living in the property. Your in laws must also give you utility bills and a tenancy/ mortgage docs for the property to include in your application. However if you and your husband were able to organise your own accomodation or evidence of efforts fo such - even if 1 bedroomed flat then IMHO this would be better.

You do not detail your profession but I note your previous employment in the Phillippines. It will be evaluated positively if your qualifications and skills make it likely that you will be able to work in the U.K. when you return as a spouse. You may wish to review employment opportunities in the UK and get evidence of such to show the ECO - e.g. newspaper cuttings of adverts with salary, registration with employment agencies, interviews attended with offers subject to your spouse visa issue etc. This will strengthen your position in relation to (v).

What do you think are my chances of granting a spouse visa?

IMHO you should be o.k. if you address the accomodation issue. Note that you should leave the U.K. before the expiry of your visitors visa.

Good Luck

[Jeri]

Thank you so much for all the help! I will definitely give you an update when I come back. Cheers!

[Jeri]

Hi its me again,

Im already here in Manila and still waiting for results, anyway its just been 10days. I've got some questions:

1) My mate said that my husband should've at least visited me here in Manila to have bigger chance of granting a visa. Is this true? My point is that, he can't leave England as of this time bec of his 5yr old kid and now that he has a new/better paying job. Thats why I came over there instead.

2) She also mentioned that its better to marry here in Manila rather than in England. Does this mean we have to re-marry again here?

Sorry im just getting paranoid.

Thanks again!

[tdabash]

Hello there,

My mate said that my husband should've at least visited me here in Manila to have bigger chance of granting a visa. Is this true? My point is that, he can't leave England as of this time bec of his 5yr old kid and now that he has a new/better paying job. Thats why I came over there instead.

I do not agree with your friend. If the ECO ever asked you this question, I suggest you tell him/her ' I have been happily married in the UK, living with my husband now for a few months. I only came here to have my marriage visa as per law requirement. This trip has cost us a lot of money. Would the British consulate or Home office pay for my husband to come here? Would you pay for the time he would take off work?

She also mentioned that its better to marry here in Manila rather than in England. Does this mean we have to re-marry again here?

Absolutely incorrect. Your marriage is legal in the UK. The British consulate must abide to UK laws.

GOOD LUCK

[marka]

Having your husband in Manila might help convince the immigration officer that the marriage is genuine. On the other hand a british marriage cetificate and copies of your husbands passport and so on should be more then enough. However, I would suggest you don't take an aggresive line with the officer as the previous poster suggests. Just explain truthfully what happened. You didn not understand UK immigration law and that is why you did not originally enter on a fiance visa. Now you are applying for a spouse visa.

marka

[tdabash]

Marka,
I am not asking Ge to shout at the ECO. The essence of an interview with an ECO is being polite, firm and to the point.

I suggest she reads a book about interview techniques as if she is going to take a job.

What is between the applicant and the ECO is the immigration law. ECOs are not lawyers but people who had training in the application of the law. They may get it wrong.

Although the immigration law should be applied on the civil standards, a lot of ECOs apply the criminal standards of absolute evidence. They tend to refuse visas. I do not know if this is an internal regulation from HO or it is a safety measures for themselves.

Unfortunately, if they got it wrong it is the applicant who suffers. There is neither apology nor compensation.

In Ge’s case, she can not claim that she did not initially apply for a fiancé visa because she did not understand the law, because she does not satisfy Rule 290 (ii).

Ge needs to highlight the fact she has been refused in the UK and was asked to apply in Manila.

Looking into the pros and cons in Ge s case as indicated in Kaya’s comment, you will find that she stands a good chance of getting her visa if she has abolished the cons prior to coming to Manila. I am sure she did.

Ge,
Please remember that your visa will depend on the integrity of your husband and consequently on the documents you are submitting. The ECO is not doing you a favour!

Please be polite, firm, and to the point. I am not asking you to shout or to be aggressive. The ECO has no right to ask you where your husband is now or why he did not come with you.

Even if you told the ECO that you met your husband over the internet initially, there is a UK marriage certificate. Your husband is a British citizen who signed this marriage certificate in sound mind. Would any one in the UK or even the ECO put any doubt on his will?

Being extremely nice in the interview would not be very helpful. It is the law and I would say no more.

One more advice, Please make sure that ECO would take every document you are submitting. If he/she refuses your application, it will be against his decision when the papers come to the UK.

Marka, have you ever dealt with ECOs before?

Good luck

[Jeri]

Thanks to both of you. This discussion board is indeed very helpful!

I dont think its practical anymore for my husband to come over here, my papers are already with the embassy and since they can not give a definite date when i will get the results...it will just be a waste of time and money. Its been 2wks now and they havent contacted me yet if they want to interview me or if i need to submit other papers, all relevant docs are with them including support letters from my in-laws except our letters before we met and pictures bec its not in the list of requirements, I think that is only needed when I'll be interviewed. I've called them several times for updates and i always get the same reply - still processing it.

Btw I've found 2 people who applied as well for spouse visa but for work permit dependant. They both waited for more than 2months so I guess I'll be waiting for that long as well. Anyway it means i get to spend more time with my family here but I also miss my other family.

I will keep you posted. Thanks!

[tdabash]

Pas de quoi !
Je dir Merci Aussi

[Jeri]

Hello!

I've got some updates... after 3wks I got a letter from the embassy and Im scheduled for an interview 1st week of July, they've also returned some of my original documents but im asked to have those ready again during my interview. Its not stated in the letter if I need to present other documents but I will have our letters, photos and phone billings ready just in case they ask for proofs.

Any more suggestions what papers/docs should I bring?
Its a 30-45min interview, Im wondering what kind of questions do they usually ask? I'm not nervous about the interview but any ideas/suggestions/pointers will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for all the help!

[tdabash]

Hello there,

It is good to hear that you have got your interview appointment.
Do not worry about the 45 minutes. They will pass quickly.

I believe you may well have consulted a legal representative in the UK prior to coming to Manila because you said in a previous post that you have some letters from your in laws. This is an idea of a person who knows how to gather evidence. It is likely to be a legal representative.

I think you may have been instructed to adopt a specific line but what makes you sometimes worried is what you hear from other people. This is a human nature!

I will be very surprised if you did not get your visa for two reasons
1- Your case is genuine
2- You have established the requirements of the law.

*but I will have our letters, photos and phone billings ready just in case they ask for proofs.

Please do

*Any more suggestions what papers/docs should I bring?

Please take every document that you have presented to the consulate.

*I’m wondering what kind of questions do they usually ask?

The questions in your interview will be centered on the rules and every word in the application form.

Please refer to Para 281. See kayalami’s post to you and VAF2 Form http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/VAF2_2003_Eng.pdf

Please also refer to DSPs, chapter 13 and 9. This is the bible of ECOs.
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front ... 5796295766

*I'm not nervous about the interview but any ideas/suggestions/pointers will be greatly appreciated.

I would like you to get rid of the idea ‘a Pilipino lady is going to see the British master’
You are now a wife of a British citizen and in the future you will be exactly like this ECO in the eyes of the law.

In essence: use the simple technique of an interview as you are interviewed for a job
Well dressed ‘respected formal dress’ not casual. Appropriate eye contact and body language. Sit comfortably and appropriately. Listen to the question carefully. Lean slightly forward when giving your answer. Do not talk too much. Just be short and to the point. Do not dig a hole for yourself.

I suggest you buy a book for interview technique .With ECOs be smiley, firm and polite though

When you give your answers, always refer to or support them with your documentary evidence. Do not imagine that ECOs are very intelligent.

Always direct your answers to serve a point in the rules but never say the law says... as this irritates the ECOs.

If you think that the question is leading to a negative point against you,
please give a short answer that carries two meanings. Lawyers are good at commenting on such types of answers. In other words create a chance for your lawyer to attack the ECO bitterly in case of unexpected refusal.

Good luck

[Jeri]

Hello!

Thank you so much for the replies!! Specially to Kayalami & Tdabash!

I would like to share some sites I've found that might be useful to those who are preparing for spouse interviews as well.

http://www.jcwi.org.uk/publications/factsheet1.PDF

http://www.marrying-filipinos.fsnet.co. ... tions.html
The ones highlighted in red, do they really ask those kind of questions??

Regards!

[lindelwood]

I would like to share some sites I've found that might be useful to those who are preparing for spouse interviews as well.

http://www.jcwi.org.uk/publications/factsheet1.PDF

http://www.marrying-filipinos.fsnet.co. ... tions.html

Also:

http://www.transpondia.co.uk

[tdabash]

Dear Ge,

Thank you very much.

The second site you have provided is an excellent one. Not only for those who are applying from manila but also from any post overses. It has been written by Mr Edward Basson.
Although I do not know the man, I can fairly say that he is organized in his thoughts and was able to translate the immigration rules into short concise facts. He has given a sincere practical advice.

He said‘Don't beg! A short sentence or two, reminding the ECO that he/she is dealing with a human being can help, but any type of pleading or simpering will not go down well at all. The vast majority of your correspondence should be taken up with facts only.’

I have already said what is between the applicant and the ECO is the immigration rules.


Please Let me demonstrate how I would answer some questions of those you have marked in red

How long do you intend to stay in UK?
Permanently or for ever. ( DO NOT SAY ANY MORE UNLESS YOU ARE ASKED)

Why do you want to go to UK?
- To join my husband.

I suppose if you get your visa, you'll be looking forward to a new life in the UK?
Yes I will.

Would you still have married your husband if you could not live in UK?
Yes. I married my husband to have and to hold for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health

Did you ask him to marry you?
No. he did.

Did you agree to marry your husband only if you could live in the UK?
I have alredy said I married my husband to have and to hold for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health

What do you have in common with each other?
Love, honesty and understanding.

Why did you marry him?
Because I have loved him

What do you like about him?
Loving, tender caring

What is the real reason why you want to marry him?
Love

How do you feel about the differences in your culture?
Love has dissolved that difference.

Please remember what I previously said

I would like you to get rid of the idea ‘a Pilipino lady is going to see the British master’
You are now a wife of a British citizen and in the future you will be exactly like this ECO in the eyes of the law.

In essence: use the simple technique of an interview as you are interviewed for a job
Well dressed ‘respected formal dress’ not casual. Appropriate eye contact and body language. Sit comfortably and appropriately. Listen to the question carefully. Lean slightly forward when giving your answer. Do not talk too much. Just be short and to the point. Do not dig a hole for yourself.

I suggest you buy a book for interview technique .With ECOs be smiley, firm and polite though

When you give your answers, always refer to or support them with your documentary evidence. Do not imagine that ECOs are very intelligent.

Always direct your answers to serve a point in the rules but never say the law says... as this irritates the ECOs.

If you think that the question is leading to a negative point against you,
please give a short answer that carries two meanings. Lawyers are good at commenting on such types of answers. In other words create a chance for your lawyer to attack the ECO bitterly in case of unexpected refusal.

Good Luck

[Jeri]

Bless you Tdabash for answering those questions, I was hoping someone would do that! Thank you!!! and to Lindelwood as well!!!

[tdabash]

You are welcome

Good luck

[Jeri]

Hello! I just finished my interview today...and it was pure torture.

The ECO grilled me...insulted and humiliated me. He said Im a liar bec I didnt originally specify in my previous tourist visa application that I have an intention to meet my husband. I know I wasnt able to explain myself well bec he kept on throwing questions at me and when I do explain it, he said Im lying. That i deceived the Brit govt by intentionally not mentioning my relationship with my bf then. I asked him, I didnt see any part where that was asked in the application form, though i listed his name as one of my friends. He said why did i put him as friend and not bf?? I said, we were not a couple then. He even showed me the blank page at the last part of the form, he said I should've wrote it there about my relationship with him. I said I wasnt aware that would be important bec my real intention was to have a holiday in England. He said I dont believe you. He said how come I stayed 3months from the original 1month I planned. I said bec I got married! He said why are we in a hurry to get married? I said we love each other and he asked me to marry him! I kept on explaining to him that i was invited initially by our common friend who introduced us last Nov. Then my husband invited me as well around Dec. He was insisting that I went there to meet him and had an intention to develop our relationship. He kept on saying I've been lying. I said yeah partly that was the reason to mee him, he said no...that was your main and only purpose! He even questioned the progress of our relationship, that we were introduced Nov, then met Jan, then got married March. He said things went so fast. He even said I agreed to live him from the first time I met him. I said I dont see anything wrong with that...we love each other and we are genuine!

I really feel so bad. He asked me other basic questions then he will go back to that issue again. Reading to me my husband's support letter. Bec in the letter my husband mentioned that after a few months of chatting, he invited me over. Honestly I got so confused already bec of his 'shotgun' questioning. On the last part, he asked if I was happy with the interview...i said no. Then he said, I need to fix first my passport bec the pix and sticker is already peeling off. Once my passport is ok.. to go back to him then he will let me know of his decision. He said they dont issue visas on damaged passports. Unfortunately the renewal of my passport will take months bec I got married in England and haven't filed it to the Phil Embassy. We need to do all those things first before they amend my passport. Then I have no choice but to see that bloke again!

Honestly Im prepared if ever he denies me, what upsets me most was how he treated me, calling me liar and saying that my whirlwind romance was a complete bull.

Now I have no choice but to wait again.. Thanks for all the help and Im still hoping though that I will get my visa bec he didnt discussed about the requirements anyway which I know I've met, he didnt even want to look at the pictures I want to show him.

[tdabash]

Dear Ge

I am sorry to hear about the difficulty in your interview.

Looking into what you have written, I think you have done very well.

ECOs are usually rude and as I explained earlier, they apply the immigration law in criminal standards although civil standards should be applied.

In your case, the ECO was angry because he can not have a basis of refusal. The law requires the parties have met. You are now a wife of a British Citizen, He can not change that. He can not cast any doubts on your intention. If he accuses you of deceiving the British government on papers, he will be liable. He can not call you a liar because things do change. This ECO does not understand the law. He is sitting in his office feeling that he has got authority. The truth is he only applies the law.

I think he will issue the visa. Refusal is unjustifiable and is subject to a successful appeal.

Furthermore, there is a channel to a solid complaint against this ECO for calling you a liar but Let us wait a little bit. If you did bad in the interview he could have refused your visa on what you say but he could not. He was angry he could not do so.

Simply if he is taking into consideration on what your husband has said initially , he should respect his support to you to have your visa.You are not costing the British government a penny. This is the major issue.

Good luck

[Jeri]

Thanks Tdabash!

I think they felt cheated when I applied for visitor visa bec I didnt mention our relationship, he said I knew they wouldnt issue me one if I did mention it. I said its not true! (I was confident then bec I have US visa multiple/10yrs and they didnt request for an interview but I didnt mention that anymore to the ECO) and we were not a couple then. Good thing I;ve got a copy at home and I signed my visitor application 2 Dec 2003...we became a couple 4 Dec! So I was right, we were friends back then...but still he said Im a liar, that we already have an existing relationship when I applied!!

I also pointed out if I've had BAD intentions, I should;ve stay there instead of going back to apply for a spouse visa. He ignored and said yeah you planned to stay 1 month and yet you stayed 3months! I thought well at least I didnt over stay...may visitor visa expired June and I was back April! I didnt break any law. I so wanted to give him a mouthful but I dont want to make things more complicated, I know he was waiting for me to slip....giving him the chance to pin me down. Another thing, when I explained, he doesnt let me finish! He cuts me off and says im lying!

But Im still hoping he'd issue me a visa, what puzzles me is if Im denied why would he asked me to fix my damaged passport?

[tdabash]

Dear Ge,

Just do not worry about what this ECO has said to you in the interview for the time being. I can show you the way to open fire now but it is not advisable. The ECO can not write on papers whatever allegations he threw at you in the interview.

As I said I think you have done an excellent interview. It is unusual to get an ECO that angry unless He or she is really cornered. He can not accuse you of a previous arrangements for one simple reason: What would happen if your husband did not fall in love and propose? What would happen if you did not like the way he looks?
Can the mighty ECO answer these questions instead of throwing unlawful allegations at you?

There is a fact here. You are a wife of a British citizen and his and your civil rights have to be respected. The requirements of the law have been met.

This ECO has no grounds of refusal. He probably asked you to change your passport for two reasons.
1- giving you a hard time prior to issuing your visa. This is the most probable reason
2- buy time to think about a way of refusal. However, He will not be able to find any. I am sure he will not put any of those allegations that he threw at you in the interview, otherwise he will be liable under the provision of the law.

I am glad you adopted the line of ‘love’ in your interview. You answered the questions with no pitfalls.

I would advise you for the time being to sit down and write exactly what has happened in the interview before you forget.

If your passport will take long time to be issued and the ECO did not say to you that he would issue the visa, I would suggest a strong letter from the UK by a lawyer only questioning the British consol in Philippines about
1- What has happened in the interview
2- To mention at this stage; we preserve our rights for further actions
3- Why the British consulate did not issue the visa and what is their intention.

The British posts overseas have an obligation to respond to lawyers and MPs.

Good luck

[Jeri]

Many thanks!

I've renewed my passport today and can claim it this Wednesday! then I will go straight to the embassy...lets see what will happen, I will keep you posted.

[tdabash]

Ge

You have done very well in your interview. If the ECO applied the law appropriately, you should get your visa. I am optimistic

Good luck