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So how can I prove that the marriage is currently subsisting ? We have 10 set of immigrations matching stamps in our passports during the last 2 years - detailing 5 trips where we traveled together (2 of which were in the last 6 months), and another 6 sets where we traveled within within 2 weeks of each other (1 of which was 2 months ago). I even annotated the relevant copies of the pages in our passports to demonstrate this ! Then there is her last visit visa that was approved and used only 8 months ago, and the trust deed that was executed 3 months ago.djb123 wrote:I disagree. All that proves is that the marriage subsisted in the past. It doesn't prove that the marriage is currently subsisting.batleykhan wrote:The fact that you are legally married and have two kids is the best evidence that your marriage subsists.
Hi Wanderer, and thanks.Wanderer wrote:If it's any consolation, this looks like an easy one to overturn, just think of it as the ECO hadn't had his nookie the night before and took it out on you! He'll be some spotty mummy's boy who's Dad's in the Service and he's not good enough to make the grade....
Posh bastards! Saw an ECO after our interview in a petrol station in Ekaterinburg, he was being an arse there too...
Yes, I have issues.....!
Address every point, and ask for a reconsideration from the ECM, I'm 99% sure you'll sort this one easily. Without a solicitor, don't bother with them...
I'm slightly playing devil's advocate here, but everything you've provided could have been provided by a couple who had split up, but stayed friends possibly just for the sake of their children. And as part of this they were going to stay married until they were all in the UK.joeking1809 wrote:So how can I prove that the marriage is currently subsisting ? We have 10 set of immigrations matching stamps in our passports during the last 2 years - detailing 5 trips where we traveled together (2 of which were in the last 6 months), and another 6 sets where we traveled within within 2 weeks of each other (1 of which was 2 months ago). I even annotated the relevant copies of the pages in our passports to demonstrate this ! Then there is her last visit visa that was approved and used only 8 months ago, and the trust deed that was executed 3 months ago.djb123 wrote:I disagree. All that proves is that the marriage subsisted in the past. It doesn't prove that the marriage is currently subsisting.batleykhan wrote:The fact that you are legally married and have two kids is the best evidence that your marriage subsists.
And what about the photographs of us all together ? We're not talking about teenage children here - they are not yet 4 years old !
Hi again, and thanks for this. Now I see where they are coming from.. It is clearly a waste of time and effort trying to bring my family back to my home country. If we get joint accounts now and utility bills in her name they will obviously just think we've done it to try to cover up our sham marriage.djb123 wrote:I'm slightly playing devil's advocate here, but everything you've provided could have been provided by a couple who had split up, but stayed friends possibly just for the sake of their children. And as part of this they were going to stay married until they were all in the UK.joeking1809 wrote:So how can I prove that the marriage is currently subsisting ? We have 10 set of immigrations matching stamps in our passports during the last 2 years - detailing 5 trips where we traveled together (2 of which were in the last 6 months), and another 6 sets where we traveled within within 2 weeks of each other (1 of which was 2 months ago). I even annotated the relevant copies of the pages in our passports to demonstrate this ! Then there is her last visit visa that was approved and used only 8 months ago, and the trust deed that was executed 3 months ago.djb123 wrote:I disagree. All that proves is that the marriage subsisted in the past. It doesn't prove that the marriage is currently subsisting.batleykhan wrote:The fact that you are legally married and have two kids is the best evidence that your marriage subsists.
And what about the photographs of us all together ? We're not talking about teenage children here - they are not yet 4 years old !
As mentioned the ECO for their ticklist is looking for proof of living together and preferably proof of joint financial responsibilities. And yes I understand that this can be a pain if you haven't planned for it. (My wife moved to the UK a few years back and I purposely made many things like utility bills in joint names just for the sake of visa applications, there was no other reason for it.).
I dont think that anybody in their right mind would go the length that Joe has gone to if the marriage was not genuine and valid.djb123 wrote:I'm slightly playing devil's advocate here, but everything you've provided could have been provided by a couple who had split up, but stayed friends possibly just for the sake of their children. And as part of this they were going to stay married until they were all in the UK.joeking1809 wrote:So how can I prove that the marriage is currently subsisting ? We have 10 set of immigrations matching stamps in our passports during the last 2 years - detailing 5 trips where we traveled together (2 of which were in the last 6 months), and another 6 sets where we traveled within within 2 weeks of each other (1 of which was 2 months ago). I even annotated the relevant copies of the pages in our passports to demonstrate this ! Then there is her last visit visa that was approved and used only 8 months ago, and the trust deed that was executed 3 months ago.djb123 wrote:I disagree. All that proves is that the marriage subsisted in the past. It doesn't prove that the marriage is currently subsisting.batleykhan wrote:The fact that you are legally married and have two kids is the best evidence that your marriage subsists.
And what about the photographs of us all together ? We're not talking about teenage children here - they are not yet 4 years old !
As mentioned the ECO for their ticklist is looking for proof of living together and preferably proof of joint financial responsibilities. And yes I understand that this can be a pain if you haven't planned for it. (My wife moved to the UK a few years back and I purposely made many things like utility bills in joint names just for the sake of visa applications, there was no other reason for it.).
What is meant by the phrase "have been living together in a relationship, which has subsisted for two years or more"?
In order to meet this requirement, the Home Office (or entry clearance officers at British Diplomatic Posts) will expect the couple to show evidence of cohabitation for the two-year period preceding the date of application. Short breaks apart would be acceptable for good reasons, such as work commitments, or looking after a relative which takes one partner away for a period of up to six months where it was not possible for the other partner to accompany.
The most straightforward application will be one in which there is evidence of 2 years cohabitation. Where a relationship has subsisted for 2 years but you have not cohabited throughout (e.g. some time spent apart due to living in different countries) then your application will be scrutinised carefully but you could still succeed. There is legal precedent (Ref. IM/09696/2004) for the argument that the Immigration Rules require a 2 year relationship akin to marriage but not 2 years of continual co-habitation. If you are in such a situation, it is suggested you seek legal advice to ascertain the chances of success.
If you have been separated during the two-year period it is necessary to show that the relationship has continued throughout that period by visits, letters/emails written and phone calls made. It is likely that a relationship based on occasional short visits followed by long periods of separation will not succeed.
Immigration Directorates' Instructions (IDIs)
Chapter 8 Section 9 (Unmarried Partners - definition of "a relationship akin to marriage" Annex Z).
How do I prove that I have been living together in a relationship for two years?
The Home Office caseworkers are told that they should be looking for "conclusive evidence of the relationship". It is suggested that the following types of evidence would be useful: -
Evidence of any joint commitments (such as joint bank accounts, investments, rent agreements, mortgage, death benefit, etc).
Correspondence which links the partners to the same address.
Any official records that show that they live at the same address (e.g. doctor’s records, DSS records and National Insurance records.
any other evidence that adequately demonstrates the couple’s commitment to each other.
Over the years our members have made hundreds of applications and we suggest in the section on evidence, the types of documentation that you should prepare and submit.
EVIDENCE REQUIREMENTS
Although prior cohabitation is not a requirement for entry clearance as a civil partner, a proposed civil partner, or leave to remain as a civil partner, it is very important to provide evidence that the relationship is genuine and subsisting and intended to be permanent. Apart from section 5, therefore, all the suggestions for evidence which follow are still useful for CP related applications.
For an unmarried partners application, or an application for a EEA family permit based on a "durable relationship", providing the evidence that you have been living together for at least 2 years is crucial.
Your dossier should include such things as:
1. Details of joint commitments, such as Bank accounts, lease agreements, life Insurance etc.
2. Correspondence which links you to the same address, esp. official records such as Doctors etc.
3. A covering letter from each of you detailing most, but not necessarily all of the following:
* How and when you met.
* How and why the relationship developed.
* If you’ve spent time apart - why, and how you felt during this time.
* Your shared social activities and hobbies.
* Milestones in your relationship such as moving in together or going on hols.
* What makes your relationship special for you.
* What makes your partner special for you.
* Future plans you may have.
* How you would feel if you were forced to be apart.
4. Supporting letters from friends and family, saying:
* How long they have known you both.
* How long they have known of the relationship.
* Reasons why they believe the relationship is genuine and committed.
* That they have experienced you as a couple in social situations.
* How they think you would feel if you were forced to separate.
* Whether or not they are married and whether they consider your relationship to be ‘akin to marriage’.
[Please note, that these days such letters, apart maybe from those written by people in official positions, are considered as "soft", rather than "hard" evidence in unmarried partner applications - i.e. not very useful unless the application is otherwise very short of evidence. They could, however still be useful to help prove that you are more than just housemates.
5. Evidence of Cohabitation:
* Joint leases or a letter from your landlord/lady stating that you live at the same address.
* Joint Utilities Bills.
* Letters addressed to you both at the same address.
* Official documents such as drivers licenses which are addressed individually but show the same address.
I personally suspect it wouldn't have taken much for the ECO to have granted the visa, it was just the fact the ECO had nothing at all to use for evidence to prove they were living together and he could not tick that box.batleykhan wrote:I dont think that anybody in their right mind would go the length that Joe has gone to if the marriage was not genuine and valid.djb123 wrote:I'm slightly playing devil's advocate here, but everything you've provided could have been provided by a couple who had split up, but stayed friends possibly just for the sake of their children. And as part of this they were going to stay married until they were all in the UK.joeking1809 wrote:So how can I prove that the marriage is currently subsisting ? We have 10 set of immigrations matching stamps in our passports during the last 2 years - detailing 5 trips where we traveled together (2 of which were in the last 6 months), and another 6 sets where we traveled within within 2 weeks of each other (1 of which was 2 months ago). I even annotated the relevant copies of the pages in our passports to demonstrate this ! Then there is her last visit visa that was approved and used only 8 months ago, and the trust deed that was executed 3 months ago.djb123 wrote:
I disagree. All that proves is that the marriage subsisted in the past. It doesn't prove that the marriage is currently subsisting.
And what about the photographs of us all together ? We're not talking about teenage children here - they are not yet 4 years old !
As mentioned the ECO for their ticklist is looking for proof of living together and preferably proof of joint financial responsibilities. And yes I understand that this can be a pain if you haven't planned for it. (My wife moved to the UK a few years back and I purposely made many things like utility bills in joint names just for the sake of visa applications, there was no other reason for it.).
This type of refusal is common in Asian applicants because the husband and wife simply didnt keep in contact with each other for a short while, when one of them returned to the UK after the marriage .
The ECO claimed that the marriage was not subsistent. Its an easy refusal for the ECO but very difficult to prove for the applicant.
In Joe's case, he has lived with his wife, had two children of her, he has sold his property where he is living, so he can move to the UK with his family. I think that anyone who goes to this length will just not split up on arrival as soon as they land in UK.
I think the ECO has cocked it up, simply because Joe has probally not provided the correct documents in joint names, therefore it has made theh ECO jobs on refusing it on this ground.
Yes I would do everything possible for my family, but not at the expense of breaking the law or telling lies, as I have seen many people who have told little white lies, come back to haunt them later on in life.In answer to "I don't think anybody in their right mind would go the length that Joe has gone to if the marriage was not genuine and valid" - have you got children? If so what lengths would you go to to make sure they had the best life possible and that you could see them? I know what lengths I would go to for my son...
I agree that telling the truth is always best, but I don't think many people would disagree that if it came to a choice between breaking UK immigration laws or only seeing your children once or twice a year it would be a very tough decision. (BTW I'm not doubting that Joe is genuine).batleykhan wrote:Yes I would do everything possible for my family, but not at the expense of breaking the law or telling lies, as I have seen many people who have told little white lies, come back to haunt them later on in life.In answer to "I don't think anybody in their right mind would go the length that Joe has gone to if the marriage was not genuine and valid" - have you got children? If so what lengths would you go to to make sure they had the best life possible and that you could see them? I know what lengths I would go to for my son...
I would much prefer to tell the truth all the time as it is easier to prove.