French residency for American husband married to BG citizen

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:20 pm

pierre75 wrote:When he will be allowed to work, it is the earnings of the family that are important not only yours. But the problem is how to get him allowance to work ...

A classical hen and egg problem...

pierre75 wrote:To be registered in pÃ´le emploi is more or less considered as having a job for the first months of stay.

Yes, job seekers should indeed be treated more favourable. I think it is up to six months. The preamble in the Directive mentions

(9) Union citizens should have the right of residence in the host Member State for a period not exceeding three months without being subject to any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport, without prejudice to a more favourable treatment applicable to job-seekers as recognised by the case-law of the Court of Justice.

But than you say that "many lawers advise to work for more than 3 months" which also means that the non EEA national can't register within the required 2 months.

In any case, thank you very much for your insights. We don't get much info on France in this forum.

pierre75 · Post by **pierre75** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:31 pm

But than you say that "many lawers advise to work for more than 3 months" which also means that the non EEA national can't register within the required 2 months.

They register but it doesn't mean that the Prefecture gives them the registration card ...

In any case, the most important is the new guidelines. What will become clear and what they will decide to leave in the shadows in order to leave some power to the national administrations ...

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:32 pm

pierre75 wrote:
But than you say that "many lawers advise to work for more than 3 months" which also means that the non EEA national can't register within the required 2 months.
They register but it doesn't mean that the Prefecture gives them the registration card ...

You mean not at all or delayed?

pierre75 · Post by **pierre75** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:38 pm

To 86ti :

I didn't work with as much cases as necessary to have definite view on this subject under EU directive.

But what I saw for the french-nonEU families under "french legislation" is that most of the time delayed means refused and you have to fight in justice in order to get it.

robin1 · Post by **robin1** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:27 pm

Thanks for the great advice on my case, I agree: classic hen and egg situation

Taking Pierre's advice I will aim to work part time at the beginning, say 15 hours a week aiming to earn 900 euros. However I will drop this job once my husband receives his "Carte de Sejour" / work permit. If my work contract states " Permanent job" will this be ok?

Is there any risk of them challenging me? You mentioned I should work a minimum of 3 months. Personally I think once my husband has a work permit there is nothing they can do to kick us out.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:39 pm

You can work part time with no problem. You can also be "self-sufficient" and have your own medical insurance - with your husband working to support you and you not working.

You will NOT get kicked out if one or both of you are working. Very very hard for them to legally do that. Not really even worth thinking about.

avs · Post by **avs** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:25 am

pierre75,

thank you for the information, i have a few more questions:

could i apply by post, i only ask this as i was told i had to go into the prefecture to apply.
how long will it take to get my residence card
and also my work contract will end at the end of this week, would that cause an issue for me when i apply for a residence card?

please advise

pierre75 · Post by **pierre75** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:32 am

avs wrote:pierre75,

thank you for the information, i have a few more questions:

1) could i apply by post, i only ask this as i was told i had to go into the prefecture to apply.
2) how long will it take to get my residence card
3) and also my work contract will end at the end of this week, would that cause an issue for me when i apply for a residence card?

please advise

1) Impossible by post, you have to go (try to phone them before) ...
2) It depends of them. It can be immediate or longer.
3) That's not so good. Try to register to the job seeking public agency and give to the Prefecture copy of the registration or try to register for a small job.

If you read french, look at this "circulaire". It states how the Government instructs the Prefectures to deal with the Romanian Roms. The French authorities do not like very much the Roms, so you can learn when they can block (and when they cannot) EU citizens that do not work :

http://www.interieur.gouv.fr/sections/a ... 4302228.44

Here is the "decret" related to UE citizens living in France :

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTex ... rieLien=id

(keep it in your computer)

pierre75 · Post by **pierre75** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:46 am

Something that I just thought :

Can you prove that you were living in France the last five years ?

If it is the case, you have now a permanent residence right with or without working.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:50 am

pierre75 wrote:If you read french, look at this "circulaire". It states how the Government instructs the Prefectures to deal with the Romanian Roms. The French authorities do not like very much the Roms, so you can learn when they can block (and when they cannot) EU citizens that do not work :

http://www.interieur.gouv.fr/sections/a ... 4302228.44

And here how google translates it
http://translate.google.com/translate?p ... ry_state0=

avs · Post by **avs** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:54 am

i wont be able to get a job for a while as i am going to be looking after my enfants till they start school. But i can rigister with the job centre as i have been registered with them in the past.
i hope they will also take into consideration that i have been here for 3years and both my kids were born here. I know they dont like the Romanians, but they also dont really like the british

pierre75 · Post by **pierre75** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:01 am

Look carrefully to the "decret" that I gave the url also.

ozbrit · Post by **ozbrit** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:33 am

Hi avs,

Can you tell us how you went?

avs · Post by **avs** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:31 pm

Well,

its still unsorted, it seems the French just make it up as they go along.

I tried to go and get registered at the Local Marie and was told that i dont need to do that as i am British and have the right to live and work here.

I tried to apply for a residency card at the prefecter and they told me i dont need one as i am british and have the right to be here.

but yet, i am told for my husband to get a residency permit i have to be registered in France which, i cant seem to do as i have the right already.

I also need to be working and show that i can support him finacially, but as i am pregnant no one will hire me. so we already fail in that criteria

And before this new law came into place my husband didnt require a visa to come to france. And now we are told he does require a visa and should apply for one before departing. another criteria we fail

Problem is that he is already here and has been for 3 years and he cant leave now as we have two young babies and me about to have our 3rd child.

So, now when the child is born we are going to get a avocat to fix this problem because something so simple is turning into a nightmare. or maybe we are doing something terribly wrong.

So here it is.... all going wrong.

Know any good lawyers?

lifeart · Post by **lifeart** » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:10 pm

I am sorry, but this is just utter nonsense. If your husband is American he does not now need a visa. If he has lived with you these past few years in France, even without Carte de SÃ©jour, he is still legally in France and has been. They can fine him, but that's all.
Print out the corresponding EU-regulation with regards to EU-citizens and their immediate family moving to a member state in FRENCH, highlighting the specific regulation with a marker. You may also be well advised to find online documents as to how these regulations have been manifested into French law and then take those as well. I assure you, French law must not contravene EU-regulations. EU-law always trumps national law, without fail. Also google SOLVIT, a European inter-governmental agency, they can often convince the authorities to do the legally right thing. There is also the ombudsman of the European Commission that can help.
When you go back to the prÃ©fecture, armed with all of the pertinent paper work and copies of the pertinent EU regs (and transpositions into French law), and the officer gives you any grief, ask to speak to a supervisor. Be persistent, don't give up. Contrary to how it may appear, they are charged to also hold up European law by their national government.
You also have to take into account that many prÃ©fectures just don't encounter many cases of EU-citizens with a 3rd country national relative, compared to the totallity of all of the case load that they encounter, so they may be ignorant of what they are mandated to do

avs · Post by **avs** » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:20 pm

Yes, it is nonsense, we actually called the prefecture to confirm that my husband didnt need a visa before we went and the lady said 'well go ahead and show up without one and see what happens' we had bad experiences with them and it makes me very nervers about going to them incase they decide to keep him for a few days due to him not having a visa, even though he dosent need one. It's hard to find documentation on the visa subject as it all seems to be worded to only confuse people. if you happen to know where to find this type of documentation that says in plain English ' dont need a visa' please send me a link. And thank you for providing the agency's that support people like us.

One question: Do i need to be registered in France as a british resident in France before he can apply? i have read and been told that i do. But when i try to register i am told i dont need to as i am British and have the right to live and work here. i have been here for 4 years and have never been told to register or get a residency card. But now that i want my husband to have the right to make a living for his family i am hearing that i MUST be registered. I would have thought that me getting married here, having children here, working here, paying tax here and holding a card vitale would have pretty much made me a registered citizen? im very confused can you help me out here?

lifeart · Post by **lifeart** » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:34 pm

Go to http://europa.eu to get specific info on rights of mobility for you and your husband. Search for the pertinent ones and print them out in English and French.
Since your husband is American, go to the website of a French consulate in the US. There you will find, in English, how 3rd country nationals (Americans in this case) that are immediate relatives of EU citizens can travel to France with their EU spouse or to join their EU spouse without a visa.
You only need a visa for family reunification if you join a FRENCH national spouse (notice the difference here). 3rd country national spouses of EU citizens that do not need a visitor visa (Americans, for instance) will not need an entry visa to reunite with their EU spouse in France. Once you find this info on the French consular website, print it out.
You do not legally need to register with the prÃ©fecture as an EU citizen at this time. You can just live and work in France. You are, after all, just like any French person, an EU citizen. While your husband will need a CdS, his rights are not attached to him having or not having a CdS. It is also irrelevant how he entered France. If he has lived with you in France already, and you have exercised your treaty rights during that time, he is a legal resident of France with or without CdS.
In order for him to get a CdS now, you now have to prove that you are exercising treaty rights as an EU citizen (see the EU web-site for an explanation).
Once you have collected all the above info in print (in French and English), have collected documentation that prove your right to free circulation (work-contract, minimum of 10 hrs of work/week, or maybe you are working for yourself, going to school, are looking for work or are self sufficient), go back to the prÃ©fecture.
Now, and this is important, make sure you make them understand that you are applying for your husband under EU-treaty rights. The trouble you have may stem from the fact that the fonctionnaire, intentionally or unintentionally, does not take the difference in procedure and rights between a French national and an EU citizen into account (a huge difference, EU nationals have more rights in this respect)
This often happens, so make sure they really know. If you don't get anywhere with whomever you deal with, ask for their supervisor (and yes, they have one, and no, they did not just step out just right this moment), and try your luck with them. That will often do the trick. Be polite, but do not back down.
Again, depending on the prÃ©fecture, they just may not have many cases of EU + 3rd country national relative, and therefore be ignorant of the difference between French citizen and EU citizen famili reunification (more onerous for French citizens).
So, bonne courage, bonne chance et beaucoup des documents!

avs · Post by **avs** » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:45 pm

Lifeart,

Thank you for all this information, we are planning on going to the prefecture on Monday.
I am currently unemployed as i am expecting a child this month and currently i am on 'libre choix d'activitÃ©' would they consider that being a burden on the social system and say i no longer qualify legally being here? i have read here http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/part ... 2017.xhtml and i cant seem to fit me in there. its confusing and scary i hate going to the prefecture! Would it be better for an avocat to over see our files? Last time we went they turned us down.

lifeart · Post by **lifeart** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:55 am

Just because you are unemployed does not mean that you are not exercising treaty rights, especially if it is because you are pregnant.
Again, you are an EU-citizen, that means you truly do have the right to live in France. It is a real citizenship with most of the rights and priviledges of a national citizenship. While you may not be French but hold UK citizenship, you are an EU national which means you are not really a "foreigner" in France in the same way that a 3rd country national would be. You can only be deported for very serious criminal offenses or because you are deemed to be a serious threat to national security. It is true that receiving payments from the French "dole" sometimes can be a reason to be asked to leave the country but only if such payments are deemed to be "excessive". I guess they would evaluate this on an individual basis. After 5 years of legal residence you are a permant resident anyway, and such considerations do then not play a role anymore in any way. Being registered as an unemployed person and receiving related benefits is a completely different matter alltogether, and no reason to fear any sort of sanctions.
Are you registered with PÃ´le Emploi? Do they know that you are pregnant? If so, try to get a written confirmation that they have this info. Take that info, and also info about your previous employment with you to the prÃ©fecture.
Hiring an attorney might be good if you have the money to spare, and also if you are sure that the attorney you hire has specific knowledge not just about French immigration law but EU law as it stands on its own and also as it has been manifested into French law, with regards to freedom of movement of EU-citizens and their immediate family within the territory of the European Union. You are, in fact, as a EU-citizen not subject to French immigration controls. 3rd country nationals, yes, but not you as a Brit. If you cannot be sure that whatever avocat you are dealing with has this specific knowledge and experience, don't bother. You would be wasting your money, and not help your case. You can also try to hook up with a non-profit migration counseling center and try to get advice and counselling/representation that way, but that only would make sense if they have someone that specifically knows about EU regulations.
So, try your luck with that.
The most important thing for you is to have as many documents pertaining to your situation on hand (in French) when you go to the prÃ©fecture. Again, be polite, but do not back down. Make sure they truly understand that you are applying under EU treaty rights. If they give you any grief, ask for the supervisor. Contact SOLVIT and the Ombudsoffice of the European Comission.
Prepare yourelf really well.
Good Luck

pierre75 · Post by **pierre75** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:22 pm

to avs :

To tell you that you do not need to register is a little trick used by many Prefectures in order to not register UE citizens.

But your answer is very simple :

Put your ask to be registered in writing, give it to them and ask to have immediatly a certificat of your registration as they are binded by the law to deliver.

(yes, it is like that ! If you ask it by mouth, they refuse but if you ask by writing, they have to deliver it immediatly ... this is how the Prefectures understand the law that states "the EU citizen has to ask to be registered).

If they ask you why you want to be registered, you don't have to answer anything else than "because I like to be registered".

Maybe these three circulaires may be usefull to you in order to know in which category you fall and which documents you will have to provide to the Prefecture in order to prove it.

http://multinational.leforum.eu/t788-Fr ... e-2009.htm

http://multinational.leforum.eu/t535-CI ... ennent.htm

http://multinational.leforum.eu/t109-Ci ... e-2006.htm

pierre75 · Post by **pierre75** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:50 pm

Quite a mess in France now about registration of EU citizens.

In some departments, you can get it in municipalities.

In other departments, you still have to g to prefectures.

No official list available to my knowledge.

The three circulars on the previous post are still usefull to know in which category you belong and which documents are usefull.

avs · Post by **avs** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:52 pm

Hello,

Well i finally visited the pref in order to apply for residency and was made aware of a few changes that recently took place.

Eu nationals no longer require residency permits UNLESS married to non EU national.

BUT.

Getting one of those if you really need one is not as easy as i found out today.
I was told over and over by some rude french woman that i didnt need one even though my husband was not an EU national. I refused to be refused as i am now desperate! so finally another lady who worked at the pref came along who agreed with me that i do need one in order for my husband to have a residency.

BUT now its like this:
she said

If you are a business owner then your husband can be a business owner.

if you are self employed your husband can be self employed.

if you work for someone your husband can work for someone.

if you dont work your husband can work.
Does this sound right?? or even Fair?

i dont work right now because i just had a baby, i am basically on work leave, i get paid to stay home with my baby for another 6 months? and when that runs out then i return to work.

she said thats not employment, eventually i said FINE give me a non actif residency so i can make my husband atleast legal for now and after 6 months i will return to change my status. she said i cant give you a non actif residency because you dont work??!!!! at this point i was totally CONFUSED but she just said that if i dont WORK he cant WORK. right? but i cant have the non actif residency because i dont WORK?? so what the f%%% is the non actic residency permit for?

she said i need prove of income. i showed her what i receive for staying home with the new baby untill the baby is OFF BREASTMILK atleast!
and the salary is enough to support 4 people on a monthy basis she said cant accept that. WHY NOT? because its not employment.

i dont think these people even know that the hell they are talking about!!!! the more she yapped the more she confused herself!!!!

what do i do? help!

avs · Post by **avs** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:53 pm

sorry, im just very angry now

pierre75 · Post by **pierre75** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:12 am

OK avs !

Don't worry too much.

When it is too difficult to speak with the staff in Prefeture, you have to do it with registered letter to be send to the Prefecture.

1) You write a letter stating that :

- you went to the Prefecture on XX XX 2010, asking a Eu citizen certificate of residency on the basis of self subsistant citizen but the Prefecture staff refused to deliver it to you.

- you confirm with this letter your ask to obtain this certificate.

- You provide two documents attached :

a) proof of subsistence (at least 470 euros/month for one people, 850 for two people for a duration of minimum 6 months - all in one from bank deposit or proof that a particular administration deliver it on a monthly basis for at least 6 months.

b) proof of medical insurance including maternity (private or public but not from the French public system if public) for yourself and your baby for at least 6 months.

- You also state :

a) that the refusal of the certificate puts your family in an extremely difficult situation which is vitally detrimental for the well being of the kid.

b) that you will present yourself to the Prefecture on this new particular date in order to get this certificate (say ten days after sending the letter, which should mean 5 to 7 days after you will receive back the receipt front the Post Office stating that the Prefecture officially received your letter).

c) That you would be very disappointed if you find yourself one more time without possibility to collect this certificate. That in this case, it would constitute another breach on the Euro citizenship and Treaty rights, that you would have to refer both at French and UE specialized ngos as well as institutionnal relevant bodies.

- You add anything that you think is important.

If you don't have any possibility to translate, you post here the final letter in english, I will translate in French, and you will send it both in French and English to the Prefecture (Service des Etrangers, Libre circulation des citoyens europÃ©ens et de leurs familles).

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French residency for American husband married to BG citizen