TIMELINE AFTER NATURALISATION APPLICATION SUBMISSION

[TintinHerge]

Leo- Good Question , Long-ish answer

To be frank, its all happening too fast for me(mentally). Yes, I should have thought abt all this before I sent my application but I went with the flow and applied when my 5 years were up.

My main concerns are about divided loyalties and it came to me when I watching the England Vs India cricket match. Dont get me wrong , I love England and do appreciate the chances I have been given here to grow and prosper. Never have I felt alienated nor subjected to any kind of beloved(except small instances here and there by some idiots). In return, I have tried to gel into the local culture as much as I can (ie.drinking and getting wasted every weekend - just kidding) along with being a law-abiding, tax-paying, liberal, English-Football-supporting person. But in my heart, I will always be Indian and if forced to chose between England and India , it has and always be India - Either in cricket, war or anything in between. Moreover, I havent really grasped what it really means to let go off my original nationality and adopt another. If I am signing up for abiding laws of the country, paying my taxes , being a good citizen overall, I am already doing all of that anyway- so thats not an issue. but if its about signing my allegiance to the Queen(and UK in general), then amnt I taking an oath which I know will be superseded by my allegiance to my original country. Yes, its a far shot that my loyalties will clash often , it might not happen at all but there is a tiny chance.

What brings me hope is the concept of Dual Nationality which lets me ride in 2 boats at the same time - Lets me balance my allegiance and support to both the countries I love and therein I find my solace.

I know this is all emotional stuff and most probably the emotions will pass away next week for more practical reasoning , but its just something that I want to think abt and make a conscious well-thought-about decision, rather than just doing it as everyone else is doing it.

Does any of this make any sense ? Has anyone else felt this way before they take the oath ? Or shud I just stop watching too many Indian movies ?

[tekaweni]

Hey Tintin,

That was straight from the heart, good on you for thinking things through. With your kind of attitude any country should be proud to have you. I dont know what the Indian situation is but South Africans can have dual citizenship if they take care of the 'section 6' requirement - so in my case the decision to go for British citizenship was a no-brainer.

[FromThere2Here]

Leo- Good Question , Long-ish answer


What brings me hope is the concept of Dual Nationality which lets me ride in 2 boats at the same time - Lets me balance my allegiance and support to both the countries I love and therein I find my solace.

?

Tintin,

Unfortunately, while the UK doesn't mind you holding dual citizenship, India does. So that option is out.

I totally sympathize with you. But make sure you balance ALL of the factors -- emotional ties to your country of birth, economic opportunities, etc. Don't forget that this will also determine not just your own citizenship, but the citizenship of any children you may have (now or in the future).

I don't mean any disrespect, but I don't think you have the information you need in order to make a wise decision. If I were in your shoes, I'd spend a few hours on the internet researching ALL of the implications of changing your citizenship. This isn't just an emotional decision, it's a decision that will have wide-ranging consequences for you and your family, if not now then in the future. Don't take it lightly.

[TintinHerge]

I don't mean any disrespect, but I don't think you have the information you need in order to make a wise decision.

Yeah ? And what information would that be , Learned One ?

BTW, I dont feel disrespected by people whom i dont know or dont respect personally - So dont worry abt that.

[bbdivo]

I don't know if you've noticed FromThere2Here but all the immigration posts I have travelled through (at the big airports, Heathrow et al) have computer consoles. If you have a machine readable passport the edge gets swiped (I know mine does) I'm sure they will enter some detail from the landing card there and then. I agree, there's no way they will gather all those cards and then type them all in later though!

BBDivo, you may be right in suggesting that swiping a machine-readable passport creates an entry in a database that the Home Office can access. But I suspect that's not the case. My passport gets swiped in every country I have ever visited (with the possible exception of African countries; I can't remember). I suspect the passport swiping access a database of known and wanted criminals. (Interpol?)

I certainly hope the Home Office can access them! The immigration officers at the port of entry are the ones who would be 'creating' the entries! I would be surprised if the UK does not keep a record of when you entered the country, especially post 9/11, If you look at the US, not only do they keep a record of when you arrived (and when you leave) but they take your picture and your fingerprints too!

[basis]

tintin -

Truly amazing post. what I could not dare to or think of putting down before taking oath - you have put down splendidly.

Yes I have felt it the same way and if you ask I am naturalised and still feel the same way. There is a good statement 'You can take an Indian out of India. But you cannot take India out of an Indian.'

The mystique country has some strong bond and attachment. And no Indian would generally be comfy to loose the nationality. And today when the economic benefits are perhaps more in India for people who are professionally well doing.

I asked the related question on the forum sometime back http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=6995 . The stats show that majority of Indians are still taking up BC.

I can tell you - you have again given same example of cricket match - that mentally it is extremely difficult to live with foreign citizenship (giving up Indian Citizenship) and you always think that you are doing injustice to both countries - UK (where your allegiance is less than India) and India (you have betrayed your motherland).

The reason to write all this is my message to you is clear - 'Dont do it if you heart doesn't tell you clearly to do it.' All other things can be managed - economic, tax, your kids - they are all minor issues. But if you are one of those Indians then think million times before you walk into the centre and take oath then you better dont. but as u said there are other factors and the emotional hangover may not last beyond a week and you may end of taking oath and the Red Shiny booklet.

I wish sincerely that u get all the mental strength and peace of mind to make right choice for yourself. And there is nothing right or wrong so go by what your heart tell you and take the decision.

Good luck !!!

[ezh]

I don' understand why the people of India have not yet tried to press the Indian goverment for allowing them to have dual nationality. This is what exactly happend in my country some 10 years ago. India is a demcracy so I don't think it would be much resictance from the Goverment

[basis]

ezh - which country are you from ?

There are many countries that dont allow dual nationality.

[quote=ezh]I don' understand why the people of India have not yet tried to press the Indian goverment for allowing them to have dual nationality.[/quote]

Indian people have tried every single thing that's possible democratically. But with the size, variety, volume of the nation these things are not easy to come by as they sound in tiny countries.

Just look at this mega thread and you will know the history of dual nationality struggle and what the overseas have got in bargain ....

http://www.india-forum.com/articles/30/ ... li-City%3F

http://www.immigrationportal.com/showth ... ge=1&pp=15

There are enough available on web that one can do Ph D on the subject. Someone on a forum exaggerated this sayin Indian freedom movement against the British govt may have been easier than getting the dual nationality for the Indians.

[FromThere2Here]

I don't mean any disrespect, but I don't think you have the information you need in order to make a wise decision.

Yeah ? And what information would that be , Learned One ?

BTW, I dont feel disrespected by people whom i dont know or dont respect personally - So dont worry abt that.

Well, it's certainly charming the way you treat people who take time out of their day to answer your postings.

To answer your question about the information that you lack or lacked:

1. You had no idea when you would become a British citizen.

2. You had no idea that you aren't allowed to have dual citizenship.

I guess I was overly rash to assume that anyone who would file for British citizenship without knowing the answers to 1 and 2 needs to do a bit more research on how accepting BC would affect his future.

You're right. I'm wrong. You've clearly thought this through in a thorough, intelligent, and considered way. I'm sure the Queen will be proud to have you as a British subject, if that's the direction you decide to go.

[TintinHerge]

To answer your question about the information that you lack or lacked:

1. You had no idea when you would become a British citizen.

2. You had no idea that you aren't allowed to have dual citizenship.

Yes and those are the exact questions I did ask, before you so amazingly pointed it out back to me. I will let The Queen decide for herself who to be more proud of.

Anyway, lets not get involved in a mud-slinging rollercoaster ride, mate. Enough jokers doing that on other posts already. Thanks for taking valuable time to answer my questions.

[ezh]

sorry, basis,- I didn't know it's such a difficult thing for India. I know even in Germany the situation is changing towars allowing multiple nationality.

[mhunjn]

The majority of Indians abroad (of which there are many!)... have been lobbying the govts. over successive years to allow dual nationality. But turning the wheels in a democratic system with a vast bureacratic system is a difficult thing and takes time. Coupled with the fact that dual nationality is not allowed by an act of the parliament... and changing it would be extremely difficult thing. To circumvent that issue, they have now come out with the Overseas Citizen of India... which gives a lot of benefits of dual natinality, but is not one 'legally'.

sorry, basis,- I didn't know that it's such a difficult thing for India. I know that even in Germany the situation is changing towars allowing multiple nationality.

[basis]

The majority of Indians abroad (of which there are many!)... have been lobbying the govts. over successive years to allow dual nationality. But turning the wheels in a democratic system with a vast bureacratic system is a difficult thing and takes time.

mhunjn I agree with this part of your past. I think, however, later part is not true.

1.

Coupled with the fact that dual nationality is not allowed by an act of the parliament... and changing it would be extremely difficult thing.

What do u mean by this. The truth is that it is easy for a govt to bring the bill in parliament and get it passed.They can even do amendments to the constitution, if needed. Many experts feel that Article 11 of the Consitution of India confers all rights whatsoever to make enactments for citizenship. But making changes to constitution / legislation is not that difficult. The real problem is willing power of the beauracracy. When the BJP govt was in power they were looking at granting true dual citizenship and that's why they passed the law. The MHA / MOIA beauracracy however toured the whole world at the cost of Indian tax payers and came up with brilliant OCI which is almost similar to the already existing PIO scheme.

So it is truly the beauracracy and admin and political will power that needs to put the act together. There is nothing that is not achievable as per Consitution of India.


2.

To circumvent that issue, they have now come out with the Overseas Citizen of India... which gives a lot of benefits of dual natinality, but is not one 'legally'.

What do you mean by not one 'legally'. OCI is backed by section 7A of Citizenship Act, 1955.

http://mha.nic.in/oci/1955.pdf

The problem is it is not 'true dual citizenship'. OCI is perfectly legal. If anything PIO is not backed by 'special or exclusive' enactment. But it is perfectly legal and backed by the power confered by existing laws.

[mhunjn]

That's what I meant... OCI is legal... but not exactly a 'Dual Nationality' as advertised. You have already discussed about this in earlier posts.
Probably the way I put it earlier was confusing.

I thought that the only reason they didn't do a proper DN was because of problems changing the original act in constitution?...

What do you mean by not one 'legally'. OCI is backed by section 7A of Citizenship Act, 1955.

The problem is it is not 'true dual citizenship'. OCI is perfectly legal.

[basis]

mhunjn - I understand what you wanted to say now. Just to be on safe side and avoid misunderstanding by other intersted users of the board - I think clarification is necessary that OCI is legal. Though it is not dual citizenship in true sence.

Act and Constitution are 2 separate things. both can be ameded if there is enough political and administrative will to do so. It is not a difficult or cumbersome process. But as you rightly said the wheels of our beauracracy turn slow.They have made one good step towards dual citizenship - slowly hopefully they will expand.

If you ask most people - what's missing in OCI is right to vote. Most people are happy to live with other restrictions.

[TintinHerge]

If you ask most people - what's missing in OCI is right to vote. Most people are happy to live with other restrictions.

If we can convince the government that whichever party can get us(the future Dual Citizens) the right to vote, will get our vote, maybe they will have a motive to make it happen.

Before I get spammed , I know its unethical and I am saying it in a light humour-ish way.

[mhunjn]

It's actually a good comment...
Can't see anything unethical about it... part of motive for voting in a govt is to look after your interests.

[basis]

If you ask most people - what's missing in OCI is right to vote. Most people are happy to live with other restrictions.

If we can convince the government that whichever party can get us(the future Dual Citizens) the right to vote, will get our vote, maybe they will have a motive to make it happen.

Before I get spammed , I know its unethical and I am saying it in a light humour-ish way.

Cant see anything unethical there. you are voting for a policy for general good and cant see anything wrong in it.

In fact, it is fair to say that Indian political parties have not been interested in educated middle class coming to vote for whatever known / unknown reasons. And since no party sees a big voters bank coming to them they are not interested in making this happen. One can imagine when till a couple of weeks before even Indian citizens who were abroad for job etc were not eligible for voting in Indian elections. It took them 56 years from India adopting the republic constitution to amend a simple Act - which was within the cabinet ministry's power not even parliamentary process involved. One can imagine how long people whose Indian citizenship is terminated by them having acquired foreign citizenship would have to wait.

Anyway tintin where have u reached in ur decision making ? All the best !!

[Fibunnaci]

Hi Guys,

Coming home from work,I learn that I received my approval.

Here is my time line.

Application=NCS(southwark)
Date of submission or posting 16/02/2006
Arrived at liverpool= 17/02/2006
CRITERIA - 5 yr stay (4 + 1 yr ILR)
Date of debit of cheque = 24/02/2006
Date of receipt of acknowledgement = 27/02/2006
Date of receipt of approval = 02/03/2006

I would like to thank every one again for their time and willingness to share thier experiences which I found helpfull.

Similarily,Here is my complete time line from application to obtaining the shiny red passport, for guys who are waiting to gauge time lines and good luck.

Application=NCS(southwark)
Date of submission or posting 16/02/2006
Post Arrived at liverpool= 17/02/2006
CRITERIA - 5 yr stay (4 + 1 yr ILR)
Date of debit of cheque = 24/02/2006
Date of receipt of acknowledgement = 27/02/2006
Date of receipt of approval = 02/03/2006
Date of receipt of cermony invitation = 04/03/2006
Cermony = public on 14/03/06
passport applied= 15/03/06(Fast track - 7days)
passport recieved = 22/03/06

[TintinHerge]

Congratulations , Fibunnaci. Excellent Turn-Around time from the Home Office - They seem to be getting their act together amazingly after the long backlog of cases they had towards the end of last year(maybe bcos too many people applied at the same time to escape the Life in the UK Test ?). Well Done to them and to you , too.

Leo_Swan - Looking at the timelines of recent applications , we should expect our Approval Letter on either this Saturday or the coming Monday. Fingers Crossed.

Its amazing to see things work on a timetable - Now if only the buses on my route would take the cue !!!

[tekaweni]

Fibunnaci - congrats, mate.

Your timeline postings have been a most useful progress indicator to me, as I have been trailing you by just a couple of weeks.

[WereRabbit]

Hi,

Here is my time line. We applied together with my wife as "married couple living at the same address".

Application=NCS (Southwark)
Date of submission or posting 17/02/2006
CRITERIA - 5 yr stay (4 + 1 yr ILR)
Date of debit of cheque = 21/02/2006
Date of receipt of acknowledgement = 25/02/2006
Date of receipt of approval = N/A

From the previous posts, I see that some people who applied around the same time with us already received their approval. I was wondering if we should start panicking? I am a bit worried as the Royal Mail delivery wasn't very reliable and there were a few cases where our mails have been delivered to neighbours and vice versa.

Is there any evidence suggesting joint applications (married couple) take longer time? Also my wife worked in Northern Ireland for a couple of years, might this be causing some delay as well?

Regards

[Shimil]

Basis and FromThere2Here

Mind your language guys. Get an atitude before posting something
At no point I siad that I am doing something like cheating. It is just curiosity that how sysytem works. About me you can read my message

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=6738

Did not really understand the question.

And even if they dont stamp your passport the computer system of Home Office keeps a record of your arrivals based on the immigration cards you fill and handover to the IO at port of entry.

Good luck.

Basis,

I couldn't agree more with your scolding him about his plan to lie about time out of the country. It's wrong and it's stupid. It's not worth the risk of getting caught, which would seriously and most likely permanently jeopardize the citizenship application.

However, I'm curious about your statement that the HO keeps a computer record of our arrivals. Frankly, I doubt that's the case. Yes, we fill out the cards, but I can't imagine the HO spending money having scores of employees entering the data from the cards into a computer database. That would be a huge and costly task.

Also, I've pratically memorized the annexes to the naturalisation application. The annexes specifically say that the HO relies on stamps in passports to verify that naturalisation applications have stayed within the 450/90 day rule. In case of a missing passport, the annex says, days out of the country are to be calculated based on work records and the like. No mention anywhere of using those entry cards to verify days out of the country.

More likely, the cards are kept on file for a period of time in case a problem arises with a particular entry into the country.

At any rate, good for you for slapping down this silly idea of cheating on a application. Cheating is the worst possible idea.

[basis]

tintin - Look at this .....there are other Indians in the US in the same boat as you are....thought would share with you.

I have pasted the link here now to continue further discussion so we dont deviate too much from the main topic covered by this sticky http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... &start=255


by the way ....have you reached any decision for yourself ? would be interetsted to know...it would be great if you could post it there...

[mhunjn]

I am pretty sure (though not 100%) that the information you enter on the landing cards gets recorded on a central database. Also, when you hand over the passport to the immigration officer, they do confirm details in their system.

Hi basis
May be I am not clear in my question. Yes it is true that immigration officer stamp and keep record of entering but please note that they dont for departing as I have noticed. Immigration officer rarely stamp passport when leaving UK and also in France where I reside I dont get stamped each time I leave and enter, so I mean is it possible that I stay even longer than 90 days outside UK and claim that I was in UK based on my bills for residence and electricity.