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Schengen visa and Chinese marriage certificate?

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shaobohou
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Schengen visa and Chinese marriage certificate?

Post by shaobohou » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:59 pm

Hi,

I hope someone can help me out with this.

I am naturalised British Citizen and my wife is on a UK spouse visa with a Chinese passport. We got married in China and our marriage certificate has been translated and notarised in China.

In order for her to apply for Schengen visa as a UK/EU spouse, our marriage certificate need to be stamped by the Chinese Embassy in UK and its translation certified as a true copy.

http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Family-mem ... opean.html

However, the Chinese embassy in UK does not legalise documents executed in China, and says it need to be legalised by the UK embassy in China.

http://www.chinese-embassy.org.uk/eng/l ... 624438.htm

But the UK embassy in China only seems to legalise UK documents!

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/what- ... -documents


I am incredibly confused and I hope someone can help me out.


Would depositing the marriage certificate with the General Register Office (GRO) be of any help at all?

86ti
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Post by 86ti » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:13 pm

The country which issued the marriage certificate must also certify the document.

John
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Location: Birmingham, England
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Post by John » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:19 pm

In order for her to apply for Schengen visa as a UK/EU spouse, our marriage certificate need to be stamped .......
Schengen visas are issued by many countries. Which country are you applying to?
John

shaobohou
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Post by shaobohou » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:06 pm

John wrote: Schengen visas are issued by many countries. Which country are you applying to?
Italy and France, but they all seem to have similar requirement.

Basically, I would like to know if it is possible to get the marriage certificate stamped and its translation certified in the UK, without having to travel back to China.

pierre75
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Post by pierre75 » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:16 pm

To have it registered in the english box (thank you to give me the name GRO) is always good but you are dealing with the French authorities, so it seems interesting to know how the French justice deals with the legalization of a chinese document.

Here is an important cas law from France ( 4 juin 2009
N° de pourvoi: 08-10962 - Cour de cassation http://legifrance.com/affichJuriJudi.do ... &fastPos=1 )
related to the validity of the legalization of a Chinese birth certificate. Should be the same for marriage certificate.

It says that the certificate has to be legalized, the common way is to get it done by "a" French Consulate abroad ( or "the" French consulate abroad ? The Court says only "a" but the general instruction for French "état-civil" (without legal power) says "the" ), BUT it can ALSO be valid if the legalization is done by the Chinese Consulate in France.

So it may be understood as : 1°) your wife may ask the Chinese Consulate in France to legalize it. 2°) you present the document legalized by the Chinese Consulate in Paris to the French Consulate in London.

So it may be usefull that

- your wife may call her Consulate in Paris to explain the situation. They may be of good advice.

- you and your wife call the French Consulate in London in order to know how they are usually dealing with it (you shouldn't be the first case with this problem).

If nothing comes out, it may be worth the pain to write to solvit France.

I have no experience of it but I would not be surprised if some kind of formal/unformal agreement between UK and French/Schengen countries exists stating that if a document is recognized by the country of first entrance, it shall be recognized by the others countries.


Cour de cassation
Audience publique du jeudi 4 juin 2009
N° de pourvoi: 08-10962

http://legifrance.com/affichJuriJudi.do ... &fastPos=1

Attendu que le procureur général près la cour d'appel de Caen fait grief à l'arrêt attaqué (Caen, 22 novembre 2007) de confirmer ce jugement, alors, selon le moyen, que, conformément à la règle communément admise en droit international, reprise dans l'instruction générale relative à l'état civil, les copies ou extraits d'actes d'état civil établis à l'étranger doivent, sauf convention internationale, être légalisés à l'étranger par un consul de France pour recevoir effet en France ; qu'en l'absence de convention entre la France et la Chine sur ce point, la cour d'appel ne pouvait considérer probant l'acte de naissance chinois de Xiaohong X... non muni de la formalité de la légalisation ; qu'en considérant que la mention du Consulat de Chine en France, selon laquelle l'acte du 17 juillet 2002 a été dressé dans les formes prévues par la loi chinoise, répondait en substance à cette exigence et constituait donc une authentification de la signature et de la qualité de l'auteur de l'acte à établir celui-ci, la cour a dénaturé l'élément de preuve que constitue l'acte notarié et la mention qui y est apposée, et violé la règle susvisée ;

Mais attendu, d'abord, que, si les copies ou extraits d'actes d'état civil établis à l'étranger doivent, selon la coutume internationale et sauf convention contraire, être légalisés, la cour d'appel a exactement retenu que, dans son acception actuelle, la légalisation pouvait être effectuée en France, par le consul du pays où l'acte a été établi ; ensuite, que l'arrêt constate, d'une part, que l'acte notarié de 2002 produit par Mme X... pour justifier de son état civil, et notamment de ses date et lieu de naissance et de sa filiation, avait été certifié le 15 juillet 2004 par le consulat de Chine en France, comme établi dans les formes prévues par la loi chinoise, d'autre part, qu'aucun élément du dossier ne permettait de douter de la véracité de la signature de l'acte ou de la qualité du signataire ; que la cour d'appel a pu en déduire que l'acte de naissance produit par Mme X... pouvait recevoir effet en France ; d'où il suit que le moyen n'est pas fondé ;
Also

Instruction générale relative à l’état civil du 11 mai 1999
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTex ... dateTexte=

592 and after

C. - Copies ou extraits d'actes de l'état civil émanant d'autorités

étrangères et destinés à être utilisés en France
also :

Guidance for better transposition and application of Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States
July 7, 2009
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 313:FR:NOT

2.1.1. Spouses and partners

Marriages validly contracted anywhere in the world must be in principle recognized for the purpose of the application of the Directive
New forum in french for binationals Europe/third country couples and families :
http://multinational.leforum.eu

shaobohou
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Post by shaobohou » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:55 pm

thanks for the reply, but I am not sure that the Chinese consulate in France is the one that should provide the legalisation. Certainly the information provided on the French embassy claims that it should be the Chinese consulate in UK that provide the legalisation required for Schengen visa.

I have emailed the French consulate in London regarding the situation but their first reply just points me to their website, I am still waiting further clarification from them.

John
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Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:54 pm
Location: Birmingham, England
United Kingdom

Post by John » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:13 pm

Italy and France, but they all seem to have similar requirement.
Do you mean Italy orFrance? The point is of course that a Schengen visa is valid in all Schengen area countries. And also the border between Italy and France is all but non-existent. On the motorway just north of Nice the only way you can see that you have moved from one country to the other is because of the language of the road signs!
John

shaobohou
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Post by shaobohou » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:26 pm

John wrote: Do you mean Italy orFrance?
Does it matter?

Either way I need a stamp on the Chinese marriage certificate and its translation certified.

John
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Location: Birmingham, England
United Kingdom

Post by John » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:32 pm

Does it matter?
Well only in the sense that you have only one application to make, not two.
John

pierre75
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Post by pierre75 » Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:29 pm

shaobohou wrote:thanks for the reply, but I am not sure that the Chinese consulate in France is the one that should provide the legalisation. Certainly the information provided on the French embassy claims that it should be the Chinese consulate in UK that provide the legalisation required for Schengen visa.
French consulate in LOndon is a french administration.

Our French Supreme Court has decided that a chinese document legalised in the chinese consulate in france is valid in front of French administration (I gave you the link).

So whatever the consulate says, it has to obey to the French Supreme Court.

Also, it prooves that the Chinese Consulate in France do deliver legalization. So this is something you can use in order to try to get it done by the Chinese Consulate in London.

This story of legalization is very important. For many africain countries documents, while the foreign spouse is in Africa, we have to ask the concerned african consulate in France to legalize the document sent from the origin country and we send it back to africa to be given to the French consulate. So it works, even very well but the French Consulates hates this system because it takes out of their hands one of their best weapon, ie to challenge the validity of the African document.

I don't know for the Chinese consulate in Paris but it seems to me to be worth to call them.

Don't care of whatever may say the french COnsulate in London about where it should be legalized. You have the sentence from the supreme court.
New forum in french for binationals Europe/third country couples and families :
http://multinational.leforum.eu

Doot
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Chinese Marriage.

Post by Doot » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:21 am

I am in the process of getting a Shengan Visa for my wife. We married in China, had the marriage Notorised there and then sent it to Biejing Foreign affairs..then it was sent to the British Embassy Beijing for legalization.
However I am a UK citizen resident in Greece. They would not accept the marriage certificate unless the marriage was registered in England. This has just been done as near as possible by depositing the certificate with the GRO. I have just sent a certified copy to China. Hopefully this will mean the Greeks giving her the Visa to come to Greece, either as tourist for 3 months or Family reunion Visa. Or I may have to have it legalised again at the FO office. I will know in one week.
It may be a requirement for you to have your marriage also recorded at the GRO,but it may also involve the British Embassy in Beijing first.
My advice is to call the British Embassy (Rosemary Clarke consulate section) in Beijing for advice first. They were most helpful as were the GRO. I am afraid I cannot say the same for the FO in London.Good luck

Ben
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Contact:

Post by Ben » Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:08 pm

Hi shaobohou,

How do you intend to reach France from the UK?
I am no longer posting publicly on this website - PM me if needed.

Graham Weifang
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Re: Schengen visa and Chinese marriage certificate?

Post by Graham Weifang » Wed May 29, 2013 2:52 am

shaobohou wrote:Hi,

I hope someone can help me out with this.

I am naturalised British Citizen and my wife is on a UK spouse visa with a Chinese passport. We got married in China and our marriage certificate has been translated and notarised in China.

In order for her to apply for Schengen visa as a UK/EU spouse, our marriage certificate need to be stamped by the Chinese Embassy in UK and its translation certified as a true copy.

http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Family-mem ... opean.html

However, the Chinese embassy in UK does not legalise documents executed in China, and says it need to be legalised by the UK embassy in China.

http://www.chinese-embassy.org.uk/eng/l ... 624438.htm

But the UK embassy in China only seems to legalise UK documents!

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/what- ... -documents


I am incredibly confused and I hope someone can help me out.


Would depositing the marriage certificate with the General Register Office (GRO) be of any help at all?
.
A little late to the party, but this is the requirement

Your both red Chinese marriage books, your both white A4 notorised translated copies of your marriage, and both your passports, need to go to the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs preferably by recorded EMS.

They will legalize your notorised translated (Chinese/English) documents.
By doing this, they declare that they identify the stamp and signature, not the contents.
The notary is the one's you declare the contents correct.
This will cost around 600 RNB.
This will take about 7 days.
All the EU embassy's in China require this, before they issue your Chinese wife with a spouse Schengen visa.

shelandpete
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Re: Schengen visa and Chinese marriage certificate?

Post by shelandpete » Wed May 29, 2013 11:18 pm

Graham Weifang wrote:
shaobohou wrote:Hi,

I hope someone can help me out with this.

I am naturalised British Citizen and my wife is on a UK spouse visa with a Chinese passport. We got married in China and our marriage certificate has been translated and notarised in China.

In order for her to apply for Schengen visa as a UK/EU spouse, our marriage certificate need to be stamped by the Chinese Embassy in UK and its translation certified as a true copy.

http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Family-mem ... opean.html

However, the Chinese embassy in UK does not legalise documents executed in China, and says it need to be legalised by the UK embassy in China.

http://www.chinese-embassy.org.uk/eng/l ... 624438.htm

But the UK embassy in China only seems to legalise UK documents!

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/what- ... -documents


I am incredibly confused and I hope someone can help me out.


Would depositing the marriage certificate with the General Register Office (GRO) be of any help at all?
.
A little late to the party, but this is the requirement

Your both red Chinese marriage books, your both white A4 notorised translated copies of your marriage, and both your passports, need to go to the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs preferably by recorded EMS.

They will legalize your notorised translated (Chinese/English) documents.
By doing this, they declare that they identify the stamp and signature, not the contents.
The notary is the one's you declare the contents correct.
This will cost around 600 RNB.
This will take about 7 days.
All the EU embassy's in China require this, before they issue your Chinese wife with a spouse Schengen visa.
I've got the same problem in that we've got a Chinese marriage certificate. Although it is recognised under UK law but not for some of the EU countries. So I'm restricted in terms of which country i apply the Schengen visa to. We attempted to deposit it with the GRO but they failed us miserably - a long story but the issue was the Notary Public in Shanghai only issued us with a shorter version of the marriage certificate's translation, which the British consulate in SH said its not a full translation of the red book therefore can't proceed with the deposit.

Are you saying I should contact the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Shanghai presumably to proceed with the legalisation? Thanks in advance!

JayJay1
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Re: Schengen visa and Chinese marriage certificate?

Post by JayJay1 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:30 pm

Hello all,

Remarkably, despite the time that has elapsed, the situation for me in today seems to be exactly the same as it was for shaobohou. [To paraphrase, both French and Italian embassies want my Chinese marriage certificate to be certified in London, but no-one in London (Chinese or British) is willing to do it.]

I still don't have an answer. What I can do now is help by responding to a some points made above:

1.
shaobohou wrote:Would depositing the marriage certificate with the General Register Office (GRO) be of any help at all?
According to the UK governement, no. From https://www.gov.uk/government/news/marr ... seas-brits:
There is no legal requirement to deposit your foreign marriage or civil partnership certificate with the GRO, or to have your marriage/civil partnership recorded in the UK. The deposit of a foreign certificate does not make the marriage legal in the UK, nor does it ‘recognise’ the marriage as a valid one.
2.
Graham Weifang wrote:
Your both red Chinese marriage books, your both white A4 notorised translated copies of your marriage, and both your passports, need to go to the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs preferably by recorded EMS.
They will legalize your notorised translated (Chinese/English) documents.
Unfortunately, both the French and Italian embassies (at least) are asking for marriage certificates that have been legalised in the UK, and the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs isn't. Personally my certificate has already been legalised in China (it had to be for my partner's UK visa application) but apparently that doesn't count for anything as far as the French and Italian embassies are concerned.


What next?

I will ask Your Europe (a free EU advice service) for advice as others have noted their helpfulness in the past. I will of course post the results here.

n.b. one possible workaround is to apply for a Schengen visa with the German office in London, who are apparently more lenient on this exact issue: see http://www.immigrationboards.com/europe ... l#p1084434.

JayJay1
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Re: Schengen visa and Chinese marriage certificate?

Post by JayJay1 » Thu May 14, 2015 11:36 am

Update

For the record, here is the response I got from Your Europe Advice in full. I received it promptly, a few days after I submitted a question.

You can visit their page and submit a query here: http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/fron ... dex_en.htm
Dear Sir:

Thank you for getting in touch with Your Europe Advice.

Your question relates to the formalities your wife must comply with in order to travel to France or Italy. Specifically, the issue you raise relates to the marriage certificate, and the requirement to have it legalized under French or Italian law.

You mention in your post that the French require not only for the marriage certificate to be legalized; the translation must also be certified as a true translation by the Chinese Consular authorities.

Given this, you wonder to what extent this requirement is in line with EU law.

Your question raises the issue as to whether the legalization of the translation of the document in question is required under EU law. This is a question that is left to Member States to regulate, although in so doing Member States must abide by EU law (eg.Treaty law, and secondary legislation, eg. Directive 2004/38 and caselaw).

The Court of Justice of the European Union has previously ruled in Commission v Italy Case C-424/98 [2000] ECR I-4001 that the national authorities could not require citizens and their family members to have documents certified by the consular authorities of their Member State of origin and held that by limiting the means of proof which may be relied upon, and in particular by providing that certain documents must be issued or certified by the authority of a Member State, the Italian Republic has exceeded the limits imposed upon it by Community law. (at para 37)

In Dafeki, Case C-336/94 [1997] ECR I-6761 at para 19, the Court ruled that the administrative and judicial authorities of a Member State must accept certificates and analogous documents relative to personal status issued by the competent authorities of the other Member States, unless their accuracy is seriously undermined by concrete evidence relating to the individual case in question.

In addition, the Commission s guidance on implementation of the Directive (COM(2009) 313) See link above, states that Member States may require that documents be translated, notarised or legalized where the national authority concerned cannot understand the language in which the particular document is written, or have a suspicion about the authenticity of the issuing authority.

The absence of EU rules on the mutual recognition of documents relating to personal status (such as birth certificates and marriage certificates) is exacerbating these problems and is leading to divergent administrative practices in residence formalities. At present the formalities for recognising official documents are partly governed by the Convention Abolishing the Requirement of Legalisation of Foreign Public Documents (The Hague, 5 October 1961), which institutes the apostille certificate (see comments above concerning the same).

Given the many instances where Member States have been found to misapply the terms of European Union law in this field, the European Commission has been compelled to issue guidelines on the subject. Please follow the link:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... FIN:EN:PDF

Entry into France without a visa:

Given the difficulties your wife has had with the processing of a Visa to visit France, you are now inclined to attempt to go to France without the required visa and to rely on Article 5 paragraph 4 Directive 2004/38, which requires French Border officials to land your wife in France and to let her a reasonable delay to prove that she is covered under EU law (Directive 2004/38), e.g. her marriage certificate, your passport and her passport.

Article 5 paragraph 4 is also reflected under the Border code and the Visa code, compelling EU border officials to exercise discretion, where proof by the passenger establishes that he is the family member of an EU citizen and that they are both travelling together.

Whilst Article 5 paragraph 4 does limit the powers of EU immigration officials and border guards, please beware that your wife may be subject to a rigorous scrutiny.

You may find assistance through the following organizations located in various parts of France:

http://www.ccbe.eu/index.php?id=140&L=0

Please find the link to the website for the French Law Society.

http://www.avocatparis.org/

CIMADE provides direct legal advice and assistance on a case by case basis:

http://www.cimade.org/poles/defense-des-droits/

I trust the above answers the questions you had and thank you again for getting in touch with Your Europe Advice.

Kind regards.
Your Europe Advice.

Your original query was:
RE: Applying for a Schengen visa with a Chinese wedding certificate

Hello there,

I am a UK citizen and my wife is Chinese. We were married in China this year and my wife is now living with me in the UK on a spouse visa. We wish to visit countries in the Schengen area as tourists. So, we would like to apply for a free visa for my wife, as is our right.

However, we have a dilemma. Here's how it goes:


1. Both the French Embassy and Italian Consulate in London require us to submit a marriage certificate and/or translation that has been legalised in the UK.

[References: For France: http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/As-the-Spo ... pean-Union point 6.
For Italy: this isn’t clear from the website, but it’s what they told us at the Consulate in person.]


2. The Chinese Embassy in the UK does not normally legalise documents issued in China. It only provides this service for documents issued in the UK. The Chinese Embassy say that if the document is not from the UK it has to be first notarised by the issuing country (in our case China) and then legalised by the UK Government.

[Ref: http://www.chinese-embassy.org.uk/eng/l ... 021900.htm]


3. The UK government only legalises documents issued in the UK (and by UK authorities). So, they won’t look at our Chinese marriage certificate.

[Ref: https://www.gov.uk/get-document-legalised]


4. The Chinese authorities in Beijing might legalise our marriage certificate, but the French and Italian embassies won't accept this, as they both want our documents legalised in the UK only (see point 1.).


It seems like a perfect Catch-22 with no way out. Here are two questions I can think of:

a. Are the French and Italian embassies right in asking us to do something that is, from our standpoint, seemingly impossible?

b. If we turn up on the border without a visa and demand our right to enter based on our marriage, can they simply turn us away because they don’t recognise our Chinese marriage certificate? Our marriage certificate and translation have both been notarised by the Chinese authorities already.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for your time and best wishes.

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