Irish passports among most difficult to get in EU

[IQU]

i am fully agree with you.if you living here from last 5-6 years contribute to irish ecomany .if incase you loose your job.you start to take social for even 2 weeks.yours application turn down.i think its not fair.also delying the application is not a any solution.

[aya101]

for me so what if someone applied for socail welfare but on the bases that they are working hard,some non eus come to ireland and apply and dont have a job.

That tax money goes on little things like running the country. Free education, maintaining roads, providing drinking water, emergency services, smalls things like that.

A high proportion of immigrants take more from the public purse than they contribute. If, during the vetting process, it has come to the departments attention that the applicant was in receipt of public funds, then they are most rightly refused in their application.

We have enough dole bludgers, thank you very much.

what do you mean?
I was saying that someone can apply for socail payment or money from government but at the same time they should be contrubuting to the government by paying and not a burden

[walrusgumble]

Please remember the amount of work involved in processing residence and citizenship is of the Dept making.

Example before McDowell, the spouse or widow of Irish Citizens did not need to register as aliens with the Dept at all.
Now they must register as aliens every year, have fingerprint and photographs taken and be processed in the arrest area of Garda station.

The Dept is making the work load, and then blaming their incompetence to deal with it, on their work load.

oath of allegiance, is another pointless bureaucracy procedure.
it means nothing in reality, it was just an ego trip for O'Donoghue to add it.

Oath of Allegiance is a waste? You must either be taking the piss or extremely dumb.

You might want to read the first 10 artilces of teh consitution on that one. Every citizens owes a duty of fidelity to the state. You are granted citizenship on the basis of remaining loyal to your new state. Citizenship is more than a meal ticket. THe same applies in the US

The oath means that should you get involved in eg a war against the State or country etc, you are on notice that you breach your duty and thus citizenship can be revoked. You promise before the District Court that you shall uphold the laws etc. If you feel the oath is pointless then don't take up citizenship


Maybe if states did not have people entering the country on false documents or illegally via other borders and turning up to sign on at the GNIB when required, there would be no need for such bureaucracy. Also the fact that the country has seen precedent flows of immigration, made the need to change things. Granted some stuff is unncessary

[walrusgumble]

Citizenship is the biggest gift a nation can bestow to a foreigner. It is not a right. Foreigners are not fundamentally entitled to citizenship, it is given at the states discretion.

Was wondering when you would make an appearance

I agree citizenship is a big gift, and most definitely there should be requirements, but I do think it is unfair if someone has been working here for over 5-7 years, has a mortgage, a family, a life here, and they say lose their job and have to receive the dole for like 6 months or whatever, it is likely that their application will be refused.. I think that is unfair.

Also if someone was to get like 2 penalty points for speeding or something, and their application is refused on that basis, I think is also unfair!

If he was refused, he would have an excellent case against the Minister, the minister is expected to use his discretion and he can't fetter it, particularily if withing the 3 year frame he is now back at work

No one gets refused on the basis of 2 points speeding tickets so get your facts right. Even Judges can get them! THey are refused because they are either serious which merited court proceedings or the person refused or failed to pay the fine and thus in court . Speeding is a serious offence as you are well aware.

[acme4242]

Oath of Allegiance, When push comes to shove, its not worth the paper its written on.

Such Oath of Allegiance is only theatre and pomp, in reality it will
not make someone really loyal.
Didn't the King require the Irish to swear an Oath of Allegiance.
and its didn't make the Irish of the time loyal to him in any way.

The main point is, these newly added layers of bureaucracy
are barriers that don't genuinely assist the process. They just make work load.
An ego trip by O'Donoghue the Irish King of expenses.

[walrusgumble]

Oath of Allegiance, When push comes to shove, its not worth the paper its written on.

Such Oath of Allegiance is only theatre and pomp, in reality it will
not make someone really loyal.
Didn't the King require the Irish to swear an Oath of Allegiance.
and its didn't make the Irish of the time loyal to him in any way.

The main point is, these newly added layers of bureaucracy
are barriers that don't genuinely assist the process. They just make work load.
An ego trip by O'Donoghue the Irish King of expenses.

Fine then don't go before a court of law (in any land) to swear it as you are potentially in contempt of court! If you consider an Irish passport (or any passport of teh EU may I add) as a mere meal ticket then maybe you should not really consider it and just stay on immigration stamps. Its is attitudes like that ( am not pointing at you btw, but you wonder why there is so much problems and distrust amongst the natives and non nationals? Its a matter or give and take. I don't know you and I am sure you are a law abiding person etc) is why the Minister does not wish to give citizenship to every tom dick and harry and it would be the Irish Embassies who would have to come to assist those new Irish who get into trouble in other countries


As for the Oath and the King?, Jesus where is your ignorance. Thats because not every one was loyal to some dude in london, sure I am sure many in the poorer regions of the North of England were too bothered about him either.

Many groups and societies had their own oaths and gimmicks. THe Irish Republican Brotherhood, The Fenian Movement, the ORange Order and The Irish Republican Army had their own oaths too to match that of the King. I am sure that movements in your country had similar. You will be aware of the craic that one particular oath had in this country over 80 years ago. By the way, the oaths for citizenship have been used for decades long before little John ever took up the call of the "Soldiers of Destiny"

Have you heard of many cases of Treason lately? no? me neither (waiting for some clever spark to refer to AIB etc)

You are not, by the way swearing an oath to Minister O'Donoghue or any other politican, judge etc. You are swearing the the entity that is the Constitution, a document brought by the people of Ireland.


One last thing, Please, for the love of god tell me how the oath is actually a barrier? Its simply an formal thing, the hard work is done

What does your country do?

[agniukas]

i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.

[Southern_Sky]

''Acquisitions of citizenship slightly declining in the EU
The number of people acquiring citizenship of
an EU Member State declined for the second
consecutive year in 2008 after rising for more
than eight years.''

''Sweden was the country with the highest
number of acquisitions per inhabitant in the EU,
followed by Luxembourg, France and the
United Kingdom. Sweden was also the country
with the highest number of new citizenships
granted in relation to the size of the resident
foreign population.''

The table on page 2 of that document does indeed show that Lithuania issued 310 approvals in 1998...


http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ ... 036-EN.PDF

[rlow68]

i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.

How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpective

[agniukas]

i don't have the figures on the immigrants to lithuania right now. but i gather it is down to the difficulty of getting the lithuanian citizenship. it takes 10 years of lawful residency to be eligible to apply for naturalisation. the applicant has to pass lithuanian language exam and the test on lithuanian constitution. the other difficulty is that lithuania does not recognize dual citizenship, so while getting lithuanian citizenship, the applicant looses his own. and they are very strict on that. they actually require the document from the home country that the applicant has denounced his citizenship. so how does that compare to ireland?

[walrusgumble]

i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.

If you can get it, there is an excellent piece by Carol Coulter from the Irish Times, were she went through the citizenship requirements of all EU states, in particular the former USSR people. It was published in the Irish Times in or around 2004ish during the IBC debacle. You might not get it as they charge for archives. If I dig it up I will post it.

[mktsoi]

for me so what if someone applied for socail welfare but on the bases that they are working hard,some non eus come to ireland and apply and dont have a job.

That tax money goes on little things like running the country. Free education, maintaining roads, providing drinking water, emergency services, smalls things like that.

A high proportion of immigrants take more from the public purse than they contribute. If, during the vetting process, it has come to the departments attention that the applicant was in receipt of public funds, then they are most rightly refused in their application.

We have enough dole bludgers, thank you very much.

"A high proportion of immigrants take more from the public purse than they contribute."

Please Please, share the actual figure with us here? Do you even have the number? Are you telling me that there are more immigrants claiming welfare instead of them working? Without all those hard working immigrants, you wont even get a cup of coffee in the coffee shop in Dublin because not many local wants to take up those jobs! I dont know about now but that was the case when the economy was going good back then!

[walrusgumble]

Citizenship is the biggest gift a nation can bestow to a foreigner. It is not a right. Foreigners are not fundamentally entitled to citizenship, it is given at the states discretion.

Was wondering when you would make an appearance

I agree citizenship is a big gift, and most definitely there should be requirements, but I do think it is unfair if someone has been working here for over 5-7 years, has a mortgage, a family, a life here, and they say lose their job and have to receive the dole for like 6 months or whatever, it is likely that their application will be refused.. I think that is unfair.

Also if someone was to get like 2 penalty points for speeding or something, and their application is refused on that basis, I think is also unfair!

if they already have stamp 4 yes it is unfair, strictly under those circumstances. but if under a work permit, not nessecarily, their permits remain valid so long as they are in work and with the people that they are seemed to work for. now in fairness, maybe after 5 years the permit should allow them to work for a different employer (considering that some fail to comply with employment law) but in the same industry or even area, it actually defeats the whole purpose of the work permit scheme. (if you dont know what it is, don't bother repling to that particular aspect). but to be fair, they knew the risks of loosing a job if on a work permit. they also knew or should have known the risks of loosing job in the citizenship aspect. its always open to them to apply for long term residency, after all, aren't they suppose to intend to live here forever

[walrusgumble]

for me so what if someone applied for socail welfare but on the bases that they are working hard,some non eus come to ireland and apply and dont have a job.

That tax money goes on little things like running the country. Free education, maintaining roads, providing drinking water, emergency services, smalls things like that.

A high proportion of immigrants take more from the public purse than they contribute. If, during the vetting process, it has come to the departments attention that the applicant was in receipt of public funds, then they are most rightly refused in their application.

We have enough dole bludgers, thank you very much.

"A high proportion of immigrants take more from the public purse than they contribute."

Please Please, share the actual figure with us here? Do you even have the number? Are you telling me that there are more immigrants claiming welfare instead of them working? Without all those hard working immigrants, you wont even get a cup of coffee in the coffee shop in Dublin because not many local wants to take up those jobs! I dont know about now but that was the case when the economy was going good back then!

I would not agree with that they are taking from the purse, eu citizens and non eu legal citizens wise, but do you really need to see the bills for asylum cases? how many ibc parents were working (fair play to those who were)


do you have a figure yourself since you are trying to rebut a believable and acceptable assumption? (exluding common areas like medical and health service) how many non eu / non chinese, japense korean/ non north americans work in the ifsc and other main industries in ireland. how many are working as qualified accountants? ( i give that example strictly on the basis of the common amount of nationalites that reside here) prior to very recent times, what was the common nationalities in supposed irish pubs and resturants (places where minium wage was king)

you miss the point what he is saying, how many of these coffee shop attendants actually pay income tax? ( many of these people are in these type of jobs)

by the way, what do you want a bloody medal? considering the decent minmium wage they got in light of their own countries i think you will find that they got a good deal i am sure that the country (with irish and non irish tax payers) would not have fallen to their knees if they could not get someone to clean, serve coffee / beer etc

you also seem to forget that employers took on who ever was cheapest but more importantly, whoever would not challenge him, no concidence people started to complain about the so called irish experinece in pubs etc (in fairness, the prices did not help)

you might want to check your economics, the country had a huge employment rate. the country , before 2001 and long before the real influx of immigrants, was low on available staff. many had better qualiciations or hopes than serving bloody coffee (let me make it clear, i know that many from their countries wer highly qualified and intelligent in their respective trades etc back home) but to hell get the hell off your high hourses

[fatty patty]

Hi Guys,

I seen this news on paper i am just wondering if any one applied for socialwelfare still they got Citizenship. Share info please..

Regards,

Kdnadh

http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 48437.html

Irish passports among most difficult to get in EU


By Aideen Sheehan
Wednesday July 07 2010

IRELAND is one of the hardest countries in Europe for foreign residents to get citizenship.

The number of people who got citizenship here fell by a third to just 3,250 in 2008, and is a tiny fraction of the rate across the rest of Europe, new figures from Eurostat show.

Ireland granted just six citizenships per 1,000 foreign residents -- compared with more than 50 per 1000 in Sweden and Portugal, and an average of 23 across the EU. Only the Czech Republic was less generous, bestowing citizenship on just three people per 1,000 foreign residents, while Luxembourg was on a par with Ireland.

Across Europe, some 696,000 people acquired citizenship of an EU state in 2008, down slightly on the 2007 level.

Most came from Africa (29pc), other European countries (22pc), Asia (19pc) and North and South America (17pc).

Natives of Morocco, Turkey, Ecuador, Algeria and Iraq were the most frequent recipients of citizenship in the EU, with many following strong historical links to their new homelands, such as Algerians and Moroccans to France, Turks to Germany and Ecuadoreans to Spain.

Delays

In Ireland people from Nigeria were the biggest group of new citizens, accounting for 319 new citizens -- or 10pc of the total -- followed by Pakistan with 196 new citizens (6pc) and India with 163 (5pc).

The Immigrant Council of Ireland (ICI) said there were serious problems with cost, delays and lack of transparency in the naturalisation process in Ireland which is run by the Department of Justice.

In particular, there were problems with the requirement to be of "good character" with no guidelines as to what this meant.

The justice minister had absolute discretion over whether to grant an application or not and frequently refused applications on the grounds somebody had come to the 'adverse attention' of the gardai, even where they had never been charged or convicted of any offence, said ICI senior solicitor Catherine Cosgrave.

There were also delays of up to four years or more in processing applications.

Feedback

"Applications are also refused on the grounds of having been in receipt of social welfare payments including short periods of time following redundancy," said Ms Cosgrave.

The Department of Justice said that it expected the number of citizenships granted this year to rise to around 5,000, an increase of 28pc on 2008 levels. A number of refinements had also been introduced in the past year, including identity checking and giving feedback within a week of receipt of application.

And the average processing time had been reduced from 30 to 26 months.

The department was also reviewing the whole citizenship process and considering the introduction of language and integration tests -- but it stressed this was a privilege rather than an entitlement for would-be recipients.

- Aideen Sheehan

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I would have a different attitude. If you compare the requirements for other countries, particularily the former Russian/UUSR statelets (sorry don't mean to offend if the term is offensive) Irish requirements are rather simple. Ireland does not require a knowledge of the countries history, language profeciency (English - I know 3 cases were a national of a particular nationality was granted citizenship and had little or no ability to speak english, though seemed to know what the score was when money was mentioned, maybe he and she pretended when it suited). I think Greece requires residence for 10 years. I also know scores of cases where the naturalised person fecked off to the UK and never to return. If they get into serious trouble then it is the Irish Embassy that has to put up with the flak from the Brits.

The reason, though absolutely no excuse, for the difficulties under Irish situation, is because the simplicity of obtaining Irish citizen that so many applications have been made and it takes time to deal with them all. Does not help when some people lie in their applications. With knowledge of the possibility, the department have to do back ground checks with social, gardai and revenue amongst others. This can cause delay to through no fault of the INIS.

It would not be much to ask that non nationals try and refrain from seeking social welfare and for complying with the law of the land. With regard to the former, this requirement only requires one to be free from certain welfare for at least 3 years before making an application. For many a non national who is here on the basis of parentage to an irish citizen child, they seem to have a misunderstanding, in theory at least, that their presence is solely for the purpose of raising the child here in ireland. What happens when the child turns 18 years or 21 years if in education and the parent is not an irish citizen / eu? THey are no longer required - this remains to be seen what happens (unlikely to be told to leave) They seem to forget that there were told clearly, that they must

(a) refrain from criminal activity (road traffic offences are criminal offences, in nearly every country)
(b) remain economically viable or studying

Now reality, any parents coming into any country for the first time often require and need assistance via welfare, rent allowances etc (it cannot be denied that non nationals in this position get a bad deal as they are treated the same as Irish in this regard, despite the fact that they are not EU citizens), but the State or any State for that fact should not have to be expected to guarantee this support all the time, particularily when the economy is solid and the parent is abled bodies to work.

The same situation for a person on a work permit, though in this case, where they have worked for a number of years and paid taxes etc they should get some leniency in being allowed to stay to look for work, and shouldn't be heavily punished if applying for citizenship. It would be a matter of facts on a case by case basis.

The good character requirement, has made it crystal clear from other refusals that the one is required to not come to the adverse attention of the garda and commit an offence

Approx 18500 people are waiting for their citizenship applications here in Ireland. UK has far higher number than that more than 200000 and i bet there is 10 times worst chancers are there lying applications then there are in Ireland...yet their (UK) turnaround time is within a year. So this argument that they need to do check and balance which take a long long time is absolute nonsense. Its waiting game and I would like to piss you off game by the department, they see how many will go away and deter people applying. and o in the meantime if you are an immigration and a casualty of this recession forget about citizenship as you claimed dole.

[walrusgumble]

i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.

How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpective

Lets put it into another perspective, unlike some of these countries, does a candidate for Irish citizenship require the following

+ Mandatory fluency in the language of the country (here English as oppose to Irish)
+ Longer residence requirements?
+ Actual knowledge of the country's history, Constitution, THE NATIONAL ANTHEM (best of luck there, alot of the Irish could barely stated ours)?
+ Will it stop you from holding citizenship of another country?
+ Unlike places like Lativa, do we refuse people of the Ulster Unionist faith and background from acquiring citizenship or any other person who acted against state independence? They don't seem to want to foregt their past. ie refusal of citizenship to their old enemies of the state

No. Its simply based on residency and working / or refrain from unreasonable resort to state assistance (which by the way is the reason one, even an EU, is permitted to reside)

Can you say for certain, that all candidates have fluency or reasonable fluency in English? I can assure you,certain nationalitites who have lived in ireland for over 10 years still barely have a word of english (though maybe they do that when they do't want to hear what a person has to say to them, funny, they know their entitlements to welfare etc)

The difficulty in obtaining Irish citizenship for most people, will not be a restriction purpose, its more to due to the procession of a heavy backlog of cases. Once you meet the criteria, which by now is well known, you will be fine.

[9jeirean]

i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.

How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpective

Lets put it into another perspective, unlike some of these countries, does a candidate for Irish citizenship require the following

+ Mandatory fluency in the language of the country (here English as oppose to Irish)
+ Longer residence requirements?
+ Actual knowledge of the country's history, Constitution, THE NATIONAL ANTHEM (best of luck there, alot of the Irish could barely stated ours)?
+ Will it stop you from holding citizenship of another country?
+ Unlike places like Lativa, do we refuse people of the Ulster Unionist faith and background from acquiring citizenship or any other person who acted against state independence? They don't seem to want to foregt the past.

No. Its simply based on residency and working / or refrain from unreasonable resort to state assistance (which by the way is the reason one, even an EU, is permitted to reside)

Can you say for certain, that all candidates have fluency or reasonable fluency in English? I can assure you,certain nationalitites who have lived in ireland for over 10 years still barely have a word of english (though maybe they do that when they do't want to hear what a person has to say to them, funny, they know their entitlements to welfare etc)

The difficulty in obtaining Irish citizenship for most people, will not be a restriction purpose, its more to due to the procession of a heavy backlog of cases. Once you meet the criteria, which by now is well known, you will be fine.

When are you going to face the obvious on this issue rather than continue to engage in this game of hide and seek? Are you implying that the status quo where people are continued to be held to emotional ransome is meant to infuse a sense of belonging? That I can guarantee you will be as effective as forcing every immigrant to eat a loaf of "Irish Pride" every morning

When you look at it from the perspective the applicants waiting on decisions from DoJ up to and in excess of 4 years in some instances, most have met or sometimes exceeded all existing requirement stated by the DoJ for naturalization. Yet they are made to wait in limbo. The DoJ often goes back year in year out to request same documents that the applicants have submitted many times prior. It is no co-incidence that this ==> http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=25809 <== is the longest running thread on naturalization for all countries covered on this forum

As for the pathetic excuse of workload in the naturalization office. didn't Dermot Ahern swear that the reason he increased the naturalization fee to Eur950 in 2008 was to buffer the administrative cost associated with running that office and to improve efficiency (mind you, not like the applicants haven't been paying their taxes prior to their application). Now they re getting the 950, where is the efficiency promised?

You mentioned people leaving Ireland after their naturalization. Seeing as we like polls in Ireland, we may want to ask the apparently idle "TB survey guys" that a survey on the factors that influence such change of heart haven committed sometimes up to 10 years or more of their lives here might help to throw some insight here. (Though, I doubt very much if they are interested in this).

And while you are harping on about residency length, language etc......It will be interesting to see a compartive study of the level of integration and sense of belonging among naturalized immigrants in those countries where they have more requirements but more efficient processing system compared to our very own 'all comer' requirement but annoyingly inefficient system.

[walrusgumble]

[jh

[walrusgumble]

i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.

How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpective

Lets put it into another perspective, unlike some of these countries, does a candidate for Irish citizenship require the following

+ Mandatory fluency in the language of the country (here English as oppose to Irish)
+ Longer residence requirements?
+ Actual knowledge of the country's history, Constitution, THE NATIONAL ANTHEM (best of luck there, alot of the Irish could barely stated ours)?
+ Will it stop you from holding citizenship of another country?
+ Unlike places like Lativa, do we refuse people of the Ulster Unionist faith and background from acquiring citizenship or any other person who acted against state independence? They don't seem to want to foregt the past.

No. Its simply based on residency and working / or refrain from unreasonable resort to state assistance (which by the way is the reason one, even an EU, is permitted to reside)

Can you say for certain, that all candidates have fluency or reasonable fluency in English? I can assure you,certain nationalitites who have lived in ireland for over 10 years still barely have a word of english (though maybe they do that when they do't want to hear what a person has to say to them, funny, they know their entitlements to welfare etc)

The difficulty in obtaining Irish citizenship for most people, will not be a restriction purpose, its more to due to the procession of a heavy backlog of cases. Once you meet the criteria, which by now is well known, you will be fine.

When are you going to face the obvious on this issue rather than continue to engage in this game of hide and seek? Are you implying that the status quo where people are continued to be held to emotional ransome is meant to infuse a sense of belonging? That I can guarantee you will be as effective as forcing every immigrant to eat a loaf of "Irish Pride" every morning

When you look at it from the perspective the applicants waiting on decisions from DoJ up to and in excess of 4 years in some instances, most have met or sometimes exceeded all existing requirement stated by the DoJ for naturalization. Yet they are made to wait in limbo. The DoJ often goes back year in year out to request same documents that the applicants have submitted many times prior. It is no co-incidence that this ==> http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=25809 <== is the longest running thread on naturalization for all countries covered on this forum

As for the pathetic excuse of workload in the naturalization office. didn't Dermot Ahern swear that the reason he increased the naturalization fee to Eur950 in 2008 was to buffer the administrative cost associated with running that office and to improve efficiency (mind you, not like the applicants haven't been paying their taxes prior to their application). Now they re getting the 950, where is the efficiency promised?

You mentioned people leaving Ireland after their naturalization. Seeing as we like polls in Ireland, we may want to ask the apparently idle "TB survey guys" that a survey on the factors that influence such change of heart haven committed sometimes up to 10 years or more of their lives here might help to throw some insight here. (Though, I doubt very much if they are interested in this).

And while you are harping on about residency length, language etc......It will be interesting to see a compartive study of the level of integration and sense of belonging among naturalized immigrants in those countries where they have more requirements but more efficient processing system compared to our very own 'all comer' requirement but annoyingly inefficient system.

emotional ransom? please please please tell me where the legislation says that if you do x,y and z you WILL get irish citizenship. it will be granted no matter what? Its an application, its discretionary, have you read the legislation? how is filling ye with this guff, no wonder why were are in such sorry states. when did the country promise yet the earth moon and stars and gurantee citizenship? No one said, no you wont be allowed to make an application, but it certainly did not say, you will definitely get it.

If people realised that they would not be in such a state. THey knew also as of 2006, that the applications were taking a long time. they had knowledge or should have had knowledge of the problems. so cop on please, i am sorry for ye, but don't hold someone hostage on false premintions that one own gave ye.

No. I am implying nothing of the sort. WHat i am expressly stating is that there is alot of bullshit about Ireland being discriminatory on this particular issue (ie citizenship decisions). You lot can't seem to understand the difference between a made decision and between the length of time one waits before the minister makes a decision. Other EU countries do not want to know ye if they are not going to integrate and really become one of them. Here, they don't give a sh*te, just reside and pay your taxes. take your passport. Nothing hugely wrong with that by the way

But if we are on that route, what difference will it make anyway as to be made wait longer? Why should someone who made their application 3 years ago be made wait longer than someone who made it 1 year ago? Maybe if people actually responded the the requests for documents on time, it might have quickened things up. You ain't going to be travelling out of the country very much are ye? You can still travel, just get your visas. Impossibility is not difficulty.Many of ye will have stamp 4's so greater difficulties do you have in access to employment than any other???

The legislation makes it clear what the requirements are, so does the application form, so does advice on this site. If you don't like them, then do not apply for citizenship. apply for long term residency. If this country was non EU state, but work was then plentiful, how many would actually be that bothered about Irish citizenship? A country wants people who will stay, who will represent them in a good light when they go abroad, their colour etc is not relevant! A country does not want people who will feck off the minute they get their tickets. its being used

Worse still, even though they are a shower of gobshites the most of times, ye use the politicans as some sort of corrupt (swearword for bad people). How is that going to help matters? Ye display such fine ignorance on the matter by endlessly quote John O'Donohue, particularily with a previous quote of his that was seriously misunderstood. I rose the issue, yet no one answered, no surprise.

When are you going to stop using the dearly beloved / emotional card. Its dishonest! If you are going to use stats and facts use them correctly and not use them out of context or to use to falsely to meet your ends. It makes you look inable to actually take in information and look quite retarded? What is so restrictive in the Irish legislation compared to other countries? What about your own country? We had another fella telling us that oaths and promises to remain loyal to the country were a load of crap? He came out with other sh*te about Irish history, which he had not got a clue what he was on about, i challenged him on it, nothing came out of it, did not take him long to realise the errors of his ways

But sure what do you expect, instead of trying to properly rebut my argument, throw in the race card sure, that will do it Emotions get you no where!!!!! its time for calm heads. Stamping your feet around thinking the world owes you something is another big no no. If you are going to reply, do so with more substance.

Do you deny that there is a long back log of cases in the department of justice? Forget the stats you got on Europe, look at the stats that were evenly broken down before the Irish courts on affidavit. Was the strike in the passport office all for a laugh? Do you deny that the requirements to obtain an Irish passport, living aside the lengthy and unfair waiting time, is more onerous? if so then you are a retard or unable to read. Are these generious requirements going to be stopped, no? should they? no.


You harp on about colour etc. Thats dishonest. What countries were more encouraging to allow free movement when the poles etc were refused proper entry to work forces in 2004? Do you realise , that despite been of IRISH blood, we don't allow automatic citizenship to our own people whose great grandparents are Irish , look at the community in Argentina.

Make your applications for citizenship of of the country of your eu spouse, lets see how you get on there.

Do you realise how many Irish passport are applied for (and this are from people who are by law already automatically entitled to them - America is a good example)

The €950? yeah, in fairness, thats a raw deal, but who do you expect these applications to be considered, by air? as for requirement of documents, you know why these are asked? Because the case law and the gnib ARE all too familar with some candidates hoping over to other countries with the eu spouse (where no stamp is required) as staying over there for intervals. the requirement of continous residency continues till the day you get the certificate and not simply when you send off the appllication by post.

Again, the legislation said the citizenship is discretionary. there is no sentence that makes it definite!!! Minister has a duty to all citizens (including naturalised) to ensure that unworthy people are not granted it (ie unemployed and criminals) why should dole querers be allowed citizenship?

paying taxes, as in income taxes? I do you include the minium wage or low paid workers there? as for the other countries, would most the naturalised people have had any distance relationship from those countries in the first place?? eg distant relative

[SBT_Owner]

Alot just use the Irish passport to get into the UK . So infact have no interest in being 'Irish' .

They are bragging about it here >> http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=#377323

[fatty patty]

i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.

How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpective

Lets put it into another perspective, unlike some of these countries, does a candidate for Irish citizenship require the following

+ Mandatory fluency in the language of the country (here English as oppose to Irish)
+ Longer residence requirements?
+ Actual knowledge of the country's history, Constitution, THE NATIONAL ANTHEM (best of luck there, alot of the Irish could barely stated ours)?
+ Will it stop you from holding citizenship of another country?
+ Unlike places like Lativa, do we refuse people of the Ulster Unionist faith and background from acquiring citizenship or any other person who acted against state independence? They don't seem to want to foregt their past. ie refusal of citizenship to their old enemies of the state

No. Its simply based on residency and working / or refrain from unreasonable resort to state assistance (which by the way is the reason one, even an EU, is permitted to reside)

Can you say for certain, that all candidates have fluency or reasonable fluency in English? I can assure you,certain nationalitites who have lived in ireland for over 10 years still barely have a word of english (though maybe they do that when they do't want to hear what a person has to say to them, funny, they know their entitlements to welfare etc)

The difficulty in obtaining Irish citizenship for most people, will not be a restriction purpose, its more to due to the procession of a heavy backlog of cases. Once you meet the criteria, which by now is well known, you will be fine.

Please spare the nonsense of "HEAVY" backlog of cases....only 18k apps is not a heavy backlog of cases. put it to you this way....950 quids each to be made out of those 18k application thats 17.1 mill to be made (you can argue few to be bogus, few for refugees who dont pay but still big enough number). but please dont say this rubbish again about "HEAVY" backlog..it would be "HEAVY" if you have only one person working in citizenship section.

[fatty patty]

Alot just use the Irish passport to get into the UK . So infact have no interest in being 'Irish' .

They are bragging about it here >> http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=#377323

if Mosaad or KGB can do it without paying taxes....why cant they poor souls? even every local Irishman/woman nowadays is saying that i wanna get out of this country and return when its better...

[SBT_Owner]

Alot just use the Irish passport to get into the UK . So infact have no interest in being 'Irish' .

They are bragging about it here >> http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=#377323

if Mosaad or KGB can do it without paying taxes....why cant they poor souls? even every local Irishman/woman nowadays is saying that i wanna get out of this country and return when its better...

I agree with you .

I just saw a reply saying it did not happen , so i popped up with a link hehe. .

On a side note , is moving to the UK 'better' ? I am in the Uk and i would rather live in Ireland :p

To Walrus and 9jeirean , i enjoyed raeding through the debate you both are having . Both of you raise some very valid points . Well done on holding a debate without it turning into a internet slanging match *thumb up*

[fatty patty]

i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.

How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpective

Lets put it into another perspective, unlike some of these countries, does a candidate for Irish citizenship require the following

+ Mandatory fluency in the language of the country (here English as oppose to Irish)
+ Longer residence requirements?
+ Actual knowledge of the country's history, Constitution, THE NATIONAL ANTHEM (best of luck there, alot of the Irish could barely stated ours)?
+ Will it stop you from holding citizenship of another country?
+ Unlike places like Lativa, do we refuse people of the Ulster Unionist faith and background from acquiring citizenship or any other person who acted against state independence? They don't seem to want to foregt their past. ie refusal of citizenship to their old enemies of the state

No. Its simply based on residency and working / or refrain from unreasonable resort to state assistance (which by the way is the reason one, even an EU, is permitted to reside)

Can you say for certain, that all candidates have fluency or reasonable fluency in English? I can assure you,certain nationalitites who have lived in ireland for over 10 years still barely have a word of english (though maybe they do that when they do't want to hear what a person has to say to them, funny, they know their entitlements to welfare etc)

The difficulty in obtaining Irish citizenship for most people, will not be a restriction purpose, its more to due to the procession of a heavy backlog of cases. Once you meet the criteria, which by now is well known, you will be fine.

BTW no one would have a problem in doing all the above you just mentioned!! heck people will stand on one feet and sing the national anthem, even learn to do irish dance if its put into citizenship requirement.....you are again running away from the fact...

which is it takes way to long for ths INIS to close a file.

[Monifé]

The reason for such lengthy processing time of citizenship applications is not because of the colour of one's skin or because DOJ are discriminating against applicants. It is because there are either (a) not enough employees to process applications and therefore creating a backlog or (b) some of our civil service just work too god damn slow and our country is quite bureacratic or a bit of both.

*No offence to any civil servants, I am one myself

By the way, Walrusgumble, what part of our wonderful nation are you from? Bit of Cork/Kerry or the West coming through in your posts