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what do you mean?IrishTom wrote:That tax money goes on little things like running the country. Free education, maintaining roads, providing drinking water, emergency services, smalls things like that.aya101 wrote:for me so what if someone applied for socail welfare but on the bases that they are working hard,some non eus come to ireland and apply and dont have a job.
A high proportion of immigrants take more from the public purse than they contribute. If, during the vetting process, it has come to the departments attention that the applicant was in receipt of public funds, then they are most rightly refused in their application.
We have enough dole bludgers, thank you very much.
Oath of Allegiance is a waste? You must either be taking the piss or extremely dumb.acme4242 wrote:Please remember the amount of work involved in processing residence and citizenship is of the Dept making.
Example before McDowell, the spouse or widow of Irish Citizens did not need to register as aliens with the Dept at all.
Now they must register as aliens every year, have fingerprint and photographs taken and be processed in the arrest area of Garda station.
The Dept is making the work load, and then blaming their incompetence to deal with it, on their work load.
oath of allegiance, is another pointless bureaucracy procedure.
it means nothing in reality, it was just an ego trip for O'Donoghue to add it.
If he was refused, he would have an excellent case against the Minister, the minister is expected to use his discretion and he can't fetter it, particularily if withing the 3 year frame he is now back at workMonifé wrote:Was wondering when you would make an appearanceIrishTom wrote:Citizenship is the biggest gift a nation can bestow to a foreigner. It is not a right. Foreigners are not fundamentally entitled to citizenship, it is given at the states discretion.
I agree citizenship is a big gift, and most definitely there should be requirements, but I do think it is unfair if someone has been working here for over 5-7 years, has a mortgage, a family, a life here, and they say lose their job and have to receive the dole for like 6 months or whatever, it is likely that their application will be refused.. I think that is unfair.
Also if someone was to get like 2 penalty points for speeding or something, and their application is refused on that basis, I think is also unfair!
Fine then don't go before a court of law (in any land) to swear it as you are potentially in contempt of court! If you consider an Irish passport (or any passport of teh EU may I add) as a mere meal ticket then maybe you should not really consider it and just stay on immigration stamps. Its is attitudes like that ( am not pointing at you btw, but you wonder why there is so much problems and distrust amongst the natives and non nationals? Its a matter or give and take. I don't know you and I am sure you are a law abiding person etc) is why the Minister does not wish to give citizenship to every tom dick and harry and it would be the Irish Embassies who would have to come to assist those new Irish who get into trouble in other countriesacme4242 wrote:Oath of Allegiance, When push comes to shove, its not worth the paper its written on.
Such Oath of Allegiance is only theatre and pomp, in reality it will
not make someone really loyal.
Didn't the King require the Irish to swear an Oath of Allegiance.
and its didn't make the Irish of the time loyal to him in any way.
The main point is, these newly added layers of bureaucracy
are barriers that don't genuinely assist the process. They just make work load.
An ego trip by O'Donoghue the Irish King of expenses.
How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpectiveagniukas wrote:i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.
agniukas wrote:i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.
"A high proportion of immigrants take more from the public purse than they contribute."IrishTom wrote:That tax money goes on little things like running the country. Free education, maintaining roads, providing drinking water, emergency services, smalls things like that.aya101 wrote:for me so what if someone applied for socail welfare but on the bases that they are working hard,some non eus come to ireland and apply and dont have a job.
A high proportion of immigrants take more from the public purse than they contribute. If, during the vetting process, it has come to the departments attention that the applicant was in receipt of public funds, then they are most rightly refused in their application.
We have enough dole bludgers, thank you very much.
Monifé wrote:Was wondering when you would make an appearanceIrishTom wrote:Citizenship is the biggest gift a nation can bestow to a foreigner. It is not a right. Foreigners are not fundamentally entitled to citizenship, it is given at the states discretion.
I agree citizenship is a big gift, and most definitely there should be requirements, but I do think it is unfair if someone has been working here for over 5-7 years, has a mortgage, a family, a life here, and they say lose their job and have to receive the dole for like 6 months or whatever, it is likely that their application will be refused.. I think that is unfair.
Also if someone was to get like 2 penalty points for speeding or something, and their application is refused on that basis, I think is also unfair!
I would not agree with that they are taking from the purse, eu citizens and non eu legal citizens wise, but do you really need to see the bills for asylum cases? how many ibc parents were working (fair play to those who were)mktsoi wrote:"A high proportion of immigrants take more from the public purse than they contribute."IrishTom wrote:That tax money goes on little things like running the country. Free education, maintaining roads, providing drinking water, emergency services, smalls things like that.aya101 wrote:for me so what if someone applied for socail welfare but on the bases that they are working hard,some non eus come to ireland and apply and dont have a job.
A high proportion of immigrants take more from the public purse than they contribute. If, during the vetting process, it has come to the departments attention that the applicant was in receipt of public funds, then they are most rightly refused in their application.
We have enough dole bludgers, thank you very much.
Please Please, share the actual figure with us here? Do you even have the number? Are you telling me that there are more immigrants claiming welfare instead of them working? Without all those hard working immigrants, you wont even get a cup of coffee in the coffee shop in Dublin because not many local wants to take up those jobs! I dont know about now but that was the case when the economy was going good back then!
walrusgumble wrote:I would have a different attitude. If you compare the requirements for other countries, particularily the former Russian/UUSR statelets (sorry don't mean to offend if the term is offensive) Irish requirements are rather simple. Ireland does not require a knowledge of the countries history, language profeciency (English - I know 3 cases were a national of a particular nationality was granted citizenship and had little or no ability to speak english, though seemed to know what the score was when money was mentioned, maybe he and she pretended when it suited). I think Greece requires residence for 10 years. I also know scores of cases where the naturalised person fecked off to the UK and never to return. If they get into serious trouble then it is the Irish Embassy that has to put up with the flak from the Brits.kdnadh wrote:Hi Guys,
I seen this news on paper i am just wondering if any one applied for socialwelfare still they got Citizenship. Share info please..
Regards,
Kdnadh
http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 48437.html
Irish passports among most difficult to get in EU
By Aideen Sheehan
Wednesday July 07 2010
IRELAND is one of the hardest countries in Europe for foreign residents to get citizenship.
The number of people who got citizenship here fell by a third to just 3,250 in 2008, and is a tiny fraction of the rate across the rest of Europe, new figures from Eurostat show.
Ireland granted just six citizenships per 1,000 foreign residents -- compared with more than 50 per 1000 in Sweden and Portugal, and an average of 23 across the EU. Only the Czech Republic was less generous, bestowing citizenship on just three people per 1,000 foreign residents, while Luxembourg was on a par with Ireland.
Across Europe, some 696,000 people acquired citizenship of an EU state in 2008, down slightly on the 2007 level.
Most came from Africa (29pc), other European countries (22pc), Asia (19pc) and North and South America (17pc).
Natives of Morocco, Turkey, Ecuador, Algeria and Iraq were the most frequent recipients of citizenship in the EU, with many following strong historical links to their new homelands, such as Algerians and Moroccans to France, Turks to Germany and Ecuadoreans to Spain.
Delays
In Ireland people from Nigeria were the biggest group of new citizens, accounting for 319 new citizens -- or 10pc of the total -- followed by Pakistan with 196 new citizens (6pc) and India with 163 (5pc).
The Immigrant Council of Ireland (ICI) said there were serious problems with cost, delays and lack of transparency in the naturalisation process in Ireland which is run by the Department of Justice.
In particular, there were problems with the requirement to be of "good character" with no guidelines as to what this meant.
The justice minister had absolute discretion over whether to grant an application or not and frequently refused applications on the grounds somebody had come to the 'adverse attention' of the gardai, even where they had never been charged or convicted of any offence, said ICI senior solicitor Catherine Cosgrave.
There were also delays of up to four years or more in processing applications.
Feedback
"Applications are also refused on the grounds of having been in receipt of social welfare payments including short periods of time following redundancy," said Ms Cosgrave.
The Department of Justice said that it expected the number of citizenships granted this year to rise to around 5,000, an increase of 28pc on 2008 levels. A number of refinements had also been introduced in the past year, including identity checking and giving feedback within a week of receipt of application.
And the average processing time had been reduced from 30 to 26 months.
The department was also reviewing the whole citizenship process and considering the introduction of language and integration tests -- but it stressed this was a privilege rather than an entitlement for would-be recipients.
- Aideen Sheehan
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The reason, though absolutely no excuse, for the difficulties under Irish situation, is because the simplicity of obtaining Irish citizen that so many applications have been made and it takes time to deal with them all. Does not help when some people lie in their applications. With knowledge of the possibility, the department have to do back ground checks with social, gardai and revenue amongst others. This can cause delay to through no fault of the INIS.
It would not be much to ask that non nationals try and refrain from seeking social welfare and for complying with the law of the land. With regard to the former, this requirement only requires one to be free from certain welfare for at least 3 years before making an application. For many a non national who is here on the basis of parentage to an irish citizen child, they seem to have a misunderstanding, in theory at least, that their presence is solely for the purpose of raising the child here in ireland. What happens when the child turns 18 years or 21 years if in education and the parent is not an irish citizen / eu? THey are no longer required - this remains to be seen what happens (unlikely to be told to leave) They seem to forget that there were told clearly, that they must
(a) refrain from criminal activity (road traffic offences are criminal offences, in nearly every country)
(b) remain economically viable or studying
Now reality, any parents coming into any country for the first time often require and need assistance via welfare, rent allowances etc (it cannot be denied that non nationals in this position get a bad deal as they are treated the same as Irish in this regard, despite the fact that they are not EU citizens), but the State or any State for that fact should not have to be expected to guarantee this support all the time, particularily when the economy is solid and the parent is abled bodies to work.
The same situation for a person on a work permit, though in this case, where they have worked for a number of years and paid taxes etc they should get some leniency in being allowed to stay to look for work, and shouldn't be heavily punished if applying for citizenship. It would be a matter of facts on a case by case basis.
The good character requirement, has made it crystal clear from other refusals that the one is required to not come to the adverse attention of the garda and commit an offence
Lets put it into another perspective, unlike some of these countries, does a candidate for Irish citizenship require the followingrlow68 wrote:How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpectiveagniukas wrote:i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.
When are you going to face the obvious on this issue rather than continue to engage in this game of hide and seek? Are you implying that the status quo where people are continued to be held to emotional ransome is meant to infuse a sense of belonging? That I can guarantee you will be as effective as forcing every immigrant to eat a loaf of "Irish Pride" every morningwalrusgumble wrote:Lets put it into another perspective, unlike some of these countries, does a candidate for Irish citizenship require the followingrlow68 wrote:How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpectiveagniukas wrote:i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.
+ Mandatory fluency in the language of the country (here English as oppose to Irish)
+ Longer residence requirements?
+ Actual knowledge of the country's history, Constitution, THE NATIONAL ANTHEM (best of luck there, alot of the Irish could barely stated ours)?
+ Will it stop you from holding citizenship of another country?
+ Unlike places like Lativa, do we refuse people of the Ulster Unionist faith and background from acquiring citizenship or any other person who acted against state independence? They don't seem to want to foregt the past.
No. Its simply based on residency and working / or refrain from unreasonable resort to state assistance (which by the way is the reason one, even an EU, is permitted to reside)
Can you say for certain, that all candidates have fluency or reasonable fluency in English? I can assure you,certain nationalitites who have lived in ireland for over 10 years still barely have a word of english (though maybe they do that when they do't want to hear what a person has to say to them, funny, they know their entitlements to welfare etc)
The difficulty in obtaining Irish citizenship for most people, will not be a restriction purpose, its more to due to the procession of a heavy backlog of cases. Once you meet the criteria, which by now is well known, you will be fine.
9jeirean wrote:When are you going to face the obvious on this issue rather than continue to engage in this game of hide and seek? Are you implying that the status quo where people are continued to be held to emotional ransome is meant to infuse a sense of belonging? That I can guarantee you will be as effective as forcing every immigrant to eat a loaf of "Irish Pride" every morningwalrusgumble wrote:Lets put it into another perspective, unlike some of these countries, does a candidate for Irish citizenship require the followingrlow68 wrote:How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpectiveagniukas wrote:i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.
+ Mandatory fluency in the language of the country (here English as oppose to Irish)
+ Longer residence requirements?
+ Actual knowledge of the country's history, Constitution, THE NATIONAL ANTHEM (best of luck there, alot of the Irish could barely stated ours)?
+ Will it stop you from holding citizenship of another country?
+ Unlike places like Lativa, do we refuse people of the Ulster Unionist faith and background from acquiring citizenship or any other person who acted against state independence? They don't seem to want to foregt the past.
No. Its simply based on residency and working / or refrain from unreasonable resort to state assistance (which by the way is the reason one, even an EU, is permitted to reside)
Can you say for certain, that all candidates have fluency or reasonable fluency in English? I can assure you,certain nationalitites who have lived in ireland for over 10 years still barely have a word of english (though maybe they do that when they do't want to hear what a person has to say to them, funny, they know their entitlements to welfare etc)
The difficulty in obtaining Irish citizenship for most people, will not be a restriction purpose, its more to due to the procession of a heavy backlog of cases. Once you meet the criteria, which by now is well known, you will be fine.
When you look at it from the perspective the applicants waiting on decisions from DoJ up to and in excess of 4 years in some instances, most have met or sometimes exceeded all existing requirement stated by the DoJ for naturalization. Yet they are made to wait in limbo. The DoJ often goes back year in year out to request same documents that the applicants have submitted many times prior. It is no co-incidence that this ==> http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=25809 <== is the longest running thread on naturalization for all countries covered on this forum
As for the pathetic excuse of workload in the naturalization office. didn't Dermot Ahern swear that the reason he increased the naturalization fee to Eur950 in 2008 was to buffer the administrative cost associated with running that office and to improve efficiency (mind you, not like the applicants haven't been paying their taxes prior to their application). Now they re getting the 950, where is the efficiency promised?
You mentioned people leaving Ireland after their naturalization. Seeing as we like polls in Ireland, we may want to ask the apparently idle "TB survey guys" that a survey on the factors that influence such change of heart haven committed sometimes up to 10 years or more of their lives here might help to throw some insight here. (Though, I doubt very much if they are interested in this).
And while you are harping on about residency length, language etc......It will be interesting to see a compartive study of the level of integration and sense of belonging among naturalized immigrants in those countries where they have more requirements but more efficient processing system compared to our very own 'all comer' requirement but annoyingly inefficient system.
walrusgumble wrote:Lets put it into another perspective, unlike some of these countries, does a candidate for Irish citizenship require the followingrlow68 wrote:How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpectiveagniukas wrote:i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.
+ Mandatory fluency in the language of the country (here English as oppose to Irish)
+ Longer residence requirements?
+ Actual knowledge of the country's history, Constitution, THE NATIONAL ANTHEM (best of luck there, alot of the Irish could barely stated ours)?
+ Will it stop you from holding citizenship of another country?
+ Unlike places like Lativa, do we refuse people of the Ulster Unionist faith and background from acquiring citizenship or any other person who acted against state independence? They don't seem to want to foregt their past. ie refusal of citizenship to their old enemies of the state
No. Its simply based on residency and working / or refrain from unreasonable resort to state assistance (which by the way is the reason one, even an EU, is permitted to reside)
Can you say for certain, that all candidates have fluency or reasonable fluency in English? I can assure you,certain nationalitites who have lived in ireland for over 10 years still barely have a word of english (though maybe they do that when they do't want to hear what a person has to say to them, funny, they know their entitlements to welfare etc)
The difficulty in obtaining Irish citizenship for most people, will not be a restriction purpose, its more to due to the procession of a heavy backlog of cases. Once you meet the criteria, which by now is well known, you will be fine.
SBT_Owner wrote:Alot just use the Irish passport to get into the UK . So infact have no interest in being 'Irish' .
They are bragging about it here >> http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=#377323
I agree with you .fatty patty wrote:SBT_Owner wrote:Alot just use the Irish passport to get into the UK . So infact have no interest in being 'Irish' .
They are bragging about it here >> http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ht=#377323
if Mosaad or KGB can do it without paying taxes....why cant they poor souls? even every local Irishman/woman nowadays is saying that i wanna get out of this country and return when its better...
walrusgumble wrote:Lets put it into another perspective, unlike some of these countries, does a candidate for Irish citizenship require the followingrlow68 wrote:How many immigrants are in Luthianian? and how many people applied for the naturalisation? Put that into the passpectiveagniukas wrote:i just came upon an article that probably the hardest naturalisation to get in EU is Lithuania, where only 310 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship through naturalisation in 2008. in light of that ireland is still doing pretty good in my view
the data is from eurostat, but i cannot locate the link to confirm it.
+ Mandatory fluency in the language of the country (here English as oppose to Irish)
+ Longer residence requirements?
+ Actual knowledge of the country's history, Constitution, THE NATIONAL ANTHEM (best of luck there, alot of the Irish could barely stated ours)?
+ Will it stop you from holding citizenship of another country?
+ Unlike places like Lativa, do we refuse people of the Ulster Unionist faith and background from acquiring citizenship or any other person who acted against state independence? They don't seem to want to foregt their past. ie refusal of citizenship to their old enemies of the state
No. Its simply based on residency and working / or refrain from unreasonable resort to state assistance (which by the way is the reason one, even an EU, is permitted to reside)
Can you say for certain, that all candidates have fluency or reasonable fluency in English? I can assure you,certain nationalitites who have lived in ireland for over 10 years still barely have a word of english (though maybe they do that when they do't want to hear what a person has to say to them, funny, they know their entitlements to welfare etc)
The difficulty in obtaining Irish citizenship for most people, will not be a restriction purpose, its more to due to the procession of a heavy backlog of cases. Once you meet the criteria, which by now is well known, you will be fine.