Now its downtime for non EU doctors as well

[abcd1]

Another rule is implemented retrospectively!!!

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060330/a ... on~doctors

UK job sword on doctors
- work permit mandatory for non-Europeans
CHANDRIMA S. BHATTACHARYA

What Next?
Mumbai, March 29: From July, Indian doctors in the UK fear that they may face joblessness.

A recent announcement of the British government has created panic among thousands of Indian doctors in the UK. Early this month, health minister Lord Warner announced that all doctors wishing to work in the UK from outside the European Union will be required to have a work permit from July.

From July, the UK government’s National Health Scheme wishing to employ a doctor from outside the EU will have to prove that a “home-grown” doctor cannot fill the vacant post, ending the current “permit free training” arrangement for international doctors.

“We now have more than 1,17,000 doctors working in the NHS, 27,400 more than in 1997, as well as record levels of doctors in training in UK medical schools. This investment and expansion, coupled with the reform of medical education, is leading to increased competition for medical posts as vacancy rates fall,” the minister had said.

Adding that in future, NHS trusts will be required to get a work permit for every doctor they recruit from outside the EU, the minister added: “We recognise that international doctors have made a huge contribution to the NHS…. However, increasingly the NHS will be less reliant on international medical recruitment.”

The decision has Indian doctors in the UK up in arms. The British Association of Physicians of Indian Origin (Bapio), with a membership of over 25,000, is leading the protest of South Asian doctors, hoping for a miraculous turnaround.

It will organise a peaceful, but huge, protest march next month, most probably on April 21, in front of the department of health office in London. It is also circulating a petition to campaign against the decision.

It means that “permit free training” for overseas doctors, which makes life easier for foreign medical students in the UK, is ending; and the “equal opportunities policy” will no longer apply for a doctor’s job selection, says the association.

“This has significant implications for overseas doctors at all levels of training. They will find that after years of serving the NHS, they are being thrown aside in job selection. There is no guarantee they will continue to be employed in further posts,” says its online campaign.

The association also suggests many will have to relocate at short notice, causing disruption to career, finances and family life.

“It will jeopardise the career of many international doctors who are already in the training post and also those who have passed the Professional Linguistic and Assessment Board (Plab) test,” says its petition to the health department.

The certificate given by the General Medical Council to practise medicine in the UK draws a number of young hopefuls from countries like India every year to Britain.

The decision means that “non-EU doctors will only be given jobs if there are no takers from the EU and then again on a work permit basis for each”, says Dr C. Mohan, one of the protesters on behalf of Bapio. “Those who still want to come to do Plab 2 will only be given a three-month visa and they have to go back to their own countries to apply for jobs,” he adds.

“The law applies to people who are currently in the system, too. Many will not progress and, if they wish to stay in the UK, they will have to settle down for staff grade jobs or similar service jobs and not higher training jobs,” Mohan says on an e-mail group, where he wants to give “appropriate advice” to juniors aspiring to come to the UK.

“I have just been able to stop one (person) coming from Maharashtra, a bright trainee whose CV was impressive,” he says. “Just one month ago, I would have been supremely confident that she would have had a bright career in the UK.”

[webhunter]

Well people having a valid work-permit to work is nothing new. It is applicable to all professions and I am not sure why it should be of any exception to doctors. (After all from a HomeOffice's perspective, it is just an other profession). It is true that the employer has to apply for a work-permit, but there is nothing to panic about it, there are 100s of thousands of people here on work-permit in other professions. will be the same for doctors.

Actually it is good in a way. Because I know several doctors who came here like a herd of sheep and now they are struggling to settle here. They would have done better of in their home country. Now they have to depend on free food in temples. (No offense, but thats the reality of life).

Having the work-permit system, will pull only those who have a job. which is good both for the country and ofcourse the immigrant.

One question I have is, what about dependants. If someone here is on a dependent visa, can he/she continue their jobs with out a work-permit ( like any other profession).

[mhunjn]

So why is it big news then?... as mentioned earlier, it's just another profession. And considering the huge infulx of overseas doctors and the outcry about doctors having to work in supermarkets because they can't get jobs... not surprising that HO is enforcing stricter regulations for any more coming in.

[Marie B]

A couple of my friends have had a lot of trouble finding work in the NHS after completing their training at medical school due to positions for junior doctors being over subscribed. This news will be very welcome to them and a lot of other medical students who can't find work after paying the extortionate fees for medical school in this country.

[sudeep_n]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 27,00.html
Putting European doctors first leaves British medicine exposed


Sir, Another nail has been placed in the coffin of surgical excellence by this most illiberal of governments.
On March 7, the Department of Health announced that all doctors wishing to work in the UK from outside the European Union will be required to have a work permit. This ruling comes into force today.



The move means that any NHS trust wishing to employ doctors from outside the EU will have to prove that a “homegrown” doctor cannot fill the vacant post, ending the current permit-free training arrangements for international doctors.

The term home-grown is taken directly from the website and is a quote from Lord Warner, the Health Minister, who went on to state that “in future, international medical graduates who wish to work or train in the NHS will need a work permit. To obtain a work permit the employer must show that a genuine vacancy exists which cannot be filled with a resident worker”.

Many will welcome this legislation, as it will reduce unemployment, particularly among graduates from British medical schools. Most will be aware of the debacle caused by recent changes introduced by Modernising Medical Careers (MMC), which have resulted in many foundation year 2 doctors being unemployed. Similar laws already exist and are accepted in Australia, the United States and many other countries where permanent employment for non-nationals is dependent on there being no local applicant.

It is important, however, to consider the wider ramifications of this change in policy. The Yorkshire Deanery recently received 160 applications for a training post in general surgery. The standard of applications was, as ever, high and shortlisting took many hours. Even so, country of birth, university, race, religion and colour were of no consequence in the process, just merit.

Yet, with the new legislation in mind, the appointments committee were advised that shortlisting would have to be repeated such that every British graduate who could potentially be trained as a surgeon (ie, fulfils the job specification) should be shortlisted before any overseas doctors could be considered.

In such a case any graduate from a British or European medical school, who has completed basic surgical training and achieved the MRCS examination, is theoretically a candidate for higher surgical training.

These individuals must be given priority over overseas applicants irrespective that some overseas applicants will have far superior experience, qualifications and CVs.

Under these new rules the chances of overseas graduates getting onto a shortlist in any competitive medical speciality will be slim. This new legislation effectively means that the meritocracy is dead.


DENIS C. WILKINS
President
Association of Surgeons of Great Britain and Ireland
London WC2

[John]

I have just scanned this topic and can find no mention of HSMP. I am surprised by that. Qualified doctors are surely good candidates to get HSMP. Armed with that they can work in the UK without needing a Work Permit.

[stedman]

Indeed - HSMP doctors are exempt in theory. In practice it's up to medical staffing departments and individual deaneries how they interpret the rules.

Most doctors 5 years post graduate qualify for HSMP but the newly arrived are unlikely to qualify for it - they are the ones worst hit by this new ruling, which is effectively to stem the influx of newly qualified overseas doctors following the recent expansion and creation of medical schools in the UK.

My advise to any IMG - apply for HSMP! What do you have to lose?

[John]

Stedman, I agree, any doctor who qualifies for HSMP should apply for that ASAP!

Getting HSMP will make secure the position of the doctor in the UK. It will also mean that their employability will be increased because potential employers will not need to go to the trouble or expense of needing to get a WP.

Given the way NHS Trusts are having to make savings these days, cutting out the expense of getting a WP could be quite an issue in the eyes of the potential employer.

[first2last4]

John... Whats the garantee that they would get the extension on HSMP after a year.

[webhunter]

if one is not sitting at home for the whole 12 months, you will get an extension.

Atleast I have'nt heard of anyone not getting the extension

[shreem]

I'm amazed by the insensitive comments made by webhunter and mhunjn. The new immigration rules certainly spell doom for thousands of non-EU doctors currently in the NHS training system.

The fact that a doctor in a training grade in the NHS is now said to be in "employment" happened overnight on the 7th March 2006. Until then, for all purposes they were said to be in training and exempt from work permit regulations. To change a rule overnight impacts on a whole host of issues. The other issue is the imposition of this rule without consulatation.

The real crux of the problem is the retrospective application of this new rule to thousands who have been training in the country for the last few years. They have all been allowed into the UK under permit free regulations which meant that they eventually had equal opportunities in getting training posts (AT THEIR TIME OF ENTRY-which could be years ago). The better qualified they are the better their chances. They have all hence spent a number of years, time, energy to attain extra qualifications, research degrees excetra in the hope of being meritorious to secure training jobs. To drop a bombshell that they now need to compete with the workpermit "homegrown" rule is a serious blow. Imagine the plight of those who now find themeselves meritorious but still cannot obtain a post just because a home grown candidate is available.

It would be sensible and humane to apply this rule to people admitted to the country from the date of the ruling.

Any non EU doctor who now undertakes the PLAB test today in the hope of getting a training post, well aware of the absence of equal opportunities cannot blame the system. However, the unassuming doctor who toiled through the system, having spent time and effort in the hope his merit will succeed, has been thrown out of the system at one stroke.

The rule of ILR being extended to 5 years from 4 years has been in consultation since Feb 05. The real irony is that I have seen members of this forum wanting to fight this out.,when in reality, this has no real bearing on their life or their current employment, only that the ILR sticker will have to wait for an year. However, a draconian rule such as the one that applies to non EU-doctos is being viewed as something simple.

[shreem]

John,

Of couse HSMP will be the best status to have (THEORITCALLY) to secure a training job. However, many NHS trusts are interpreting the new immigration rules as they wish. Many trusts are now only considering applications from UK/EEA nationals first before even considering other nonEU doctors who dont need a work permit (ie HSMP, dependents, and also those with ILR).

Therefore, it is not question whether or not they need a workpermit. It is just a question whether they are home grown or not, irrespective of their current immigration status. ( Hope the Commision for facial equality is listenting!)

I have never witnessed such a blatent discriminatory rule (and its application) in the UK for many years.

[bbdivo]

Many trusts are now only considering applications from UK/EEA nationals first before even considering other nonEU doctors who dont need a work permit (ie HSMP, dependents, and also those with ILR).

I would take that as being blatant discrimination, and therefore should be held accountable for that.

[bbdivo]

Many trusts are now only considering applications from UK/EEA nationals first before even considering other nonEU doctors who dont need a work permit (ie HSMP, dependents, and also those with ILR).

I would take that as being blatant discrimination, and therefore should be held accountable for that.

[stedman]

Many trusts are now only considering applications from UK/EEA nationals first before even considering other nonEU doctors who dont need a work permit (ie HSMP, dependents, and also those with ILR).

I would take that as being blatant discrimination, and therefore should be held accountable for that.

Trouble is you can't prove anything - this is how applying for a medical post goes. You see the ad in the BMJ, request the person spec and apply for the job, pleased your years of research/audit/experience puts you in good stead. A consultant and/or medical staffing officer begin to shortlist from the huge pile of applicants. With this new ruling, all non-EU medical doctor CVs could be discarded even before shortlisting and EU graduates only invited for interview. You get a letter regretfully informing you that you have been unsuccessful on this occasion.

On what grounds do you hold them accountable for not selecting you? Unless you installed a camera in the shortlisting room, or had access to the CVs of ALL the applicants for that job, you cannot prove you have been actively discriminated against.

When I applied for my registrar training, my deanery had a policy of shortlisting ALL applicants who met the person spec. It did not matter if there were 50 applicants for 3 jobs, everyone who was qualified for the job on paper fought it out at interview. If this model remained (it was scrapped after 2 years) then there could be grounds for legal action, but with applicant:post ratios for jobs at 500:1 in some areas and specialties, one can see how easy it will be to implement this draconian ruling.

[webhunter]

However, a draconian rule such as the one that applies to non EU-doctos is being viewed as something simple.

Well, I agree with you that it is going to impact quite a few existing doctors and is the negative side of this rule.

My earlier comments were to do more with stopping future talented doctors to come here in huge groups and be unemployed here. A work-permit will bring them in only if they have a job and hence will save several doctors which is the positive side of this rule.

No matter what, I don't think the rules are made for 'time pass'. they have a good reason to impose a rule. All of us may beat around the bush about "equal opportunity" , but if thousands of ppl are applying for only a few available jobs who should be given priority? Imagine urself being jobless in your country because of jobs being taken by immigrants. Would we still talk abt 'equal opportunity'.

whether it is the 'Non-EU doctor rule' or '4 to 5 ILR Rule', we can keep on complaining or just move on..

[stedman]

I think the point being made is the way it was introduced. People who are here "training" have suddenly being told that from august they won't be training, they'll be "working" (even though EU and UK graduates will be "training" whilst doing the same job as the IMGs)

A phased introduction - e.g "with effect from august all new applicants" - would have made more sense. It's a bit like being given a 4 year work permit and then being told in year 3 that you can no longer work with it, you need ILR to do the same job you've been doing for 3 years!

It doesn't affect me as I luckily got a consultant post before this new ruling but that doesn't mean I can't see how unfair it is.

[shreem]

Stedman,

I totally agree with the fact that it is difficult to prove that discrimination is taking place unless one can bug the interview room. The real truth is that no nonEEA doctor will ever get to the interview room in the first instance.

The latest job advert for the Anaesthesia Specialist Registrar training quotes following:

***Important information***
It is essential that all applicants read this page.
Dear Applicant,
Thank you for your interest in this training programme. The application form is enclosed.

It is essential that you give careful thought to your answers and complete each section accurately. Please note that you may be asked to provide evidence to support the statements you have made in any part of your form.

Please pay particular attention to the following and complete the corresponding sections in the application form as appropriate:

Visa status - International Medical Graduates

On 7 March 2006 the Home Office announced changes to the immigration rules which have an affect on Postgraduate Doctors and Dentists and which we must take into account during our current recruitment activity. From 7 March we have to recruit doctors and dentists from the UK and the EEA before we recruit migrant doctors and dentists from outside EEA countries However, if there are posts available on any of the London Deanery Training Programmes and no doctor or dentist with permanent residence in this country is able to take up the post, fully trained international medical graduates with the appropriate qualifications may also be considered for appointment. (Please see A Points-based System: Making Migration Work for Britain)

If your current status falls under any of the following categories: Highly Skilled Migrant Programme, Permit Free Training, or Refugee and this status is currently valid and remains valid for either a single, fixed term training slot or for a full, type 1 training programme involving several slots, your application will be considered.

*****
Please read carefully the last line. For Example an HSMP holder could have 1 year of valid visa remaining but he/she may not be considered for a 5 year training programme as his visa is not valid for the 5 year period.

There is so much fuss in applying the rules, the non-EU doctor is unlikely to come through all these stages and secure a training post.

IF this is not blatent discrimination, what else is?

The advert I have quoted above can be seen at

http://www.london-pgmde.ac.uk/Recruitme ... 8B2AEC.doc

[shreem]

webhunter wrote:

No matter what, I don't think the rules are made for 'time pass'. they have a good reason to impose a rule. All of us may beat around the bush about "equal opportunity" , but if thousands of ppl are applying for only a few available jobs who should be given priority? Imagine urself being jobless in your country because of jobs being taken by immigrants. Would we still talk abt 'equal opportunity'

Thanks for understanding.

The rule imposed certainly is for a cause and is a fair call and the reasoning for the cause is pretty obvious: too many applicants and too little jobs.

The issue is with application of these rules to unassuming individuals who have been given false hopes right from the word go.When these doctors approached the General Medical Council for registration, the GMC adhered to the Equal Opportunities policy. Whether this was practiced in the first place is debatable.

However, it seemed reasonable for an individual to apply and then find out that he is not the preferred candidate. The situation now is that he is unlikely to be able to apply in the first place.

The only reason that we need to go on and on-about this issue, is because these people have been in real terms cheated by the system and the system needs to address the concerns of these individuals.

I wouldnt even mention the 4-5 year rule in the same breath as the above rule. The 4-5 year rule does not make a sea of change to anyone's career ambitions or life situation.

[mhunjn]

Welcome to the real world... compete with the local EU colleagues to get a job like all other professionalists do.

However, they should not have done this retrospectively... The channel4 report on this was good to raise awareness of this change.

[mhunjn]

That's what happens in pretty much every other profession... call it discrimination or whatever else, it's very difficult to prove. Unless you are exceptionally talented, the employer will always recruit for the least hassle... that's EU residents.

And it's not insensitive, it's the reality, though harsh!

Many trusts are now only considering applications from UK/EEA nationals first before even considering other nonEU doctors who dont need a work permit (ie HSMP, dependents, and also those with ILR).