Total funds required

[safc]

Sometime next year I expect to be applying for a spouse visa for my american girlfriend (we plan to marry in the USA before then as she's not yet 21 and apply for spouse visa when she is 21). She is also pregnant with my child which will be born by then.

I read somewhere that you're expected to have a minimum of £156 per week left over after mortgage/council tax to support ourselves.

With my wages alone, I will have slight less than that amount left but will more than this when taking into account child benefit and working tax credit I should receive once they're here. I'm currently not entitled to any benefits as I don't have any children and live alone.

Will they take into account the amount I'll receive (an extra £400 per month or thereabouts) in child benefits/child/working tax credits once they are living with me?

Also, if need be, she could get a part time job to further boost our earnings, would they take this into account?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[John]

I have moved your topic here, which is a more appropriate place for your query.

Unfortunately for you you cannot take those potential benefits into account. The reason is para 6C of the Immigration Rules, which states :-

6C. A person (P) making an application from outside the United Kingdom will be regarded as having recourse to public funds where P relies upon the future entitlement to any public funds that would be payable to P or to P's sponsor as a result of P?s presence in the United Kingdom, (including those benefits to which P or the sponsor would be entitled as a result of P's presence in the United Kingdom under the regulations referred to in to paragraph 6B)".

So whilst the benefit claims will be totally OK after they arrive, you cannot use those potential benefits in order to try to pass the financial test.

So safc you need to increase your income and/or reduce your housing costs, in order to pass the financial test. Getting a part-time job is the obvious way to go.

[safc]

I have moved your topic here, which is a more appropriate place for your query.

Unfortunately for you you cannot take those potential benefits into account. The reason is para 6C of the Immigration Rules, which states :-

6C. A person (P) making an application from outside the United Kingdom will be regarded as having recourse to public funds where P relies upon the future entitlement to any public funds that would be payable to P or to P's sponsor as a result of P?s presence in the United Kingdom, (including those benefits to which P or the sponsor would be entitled as a result of P's presence in the United Kingdom under the regulations referred to in to paragraph 6B)".

So whilst the benefit claims will be totally OK after they arrive, you cannot use those potential benefits in order to try to pass the financial test.

So safc you need to increase your income and/or reduce your housing costs, in order to pass the financial test. Getting a part-time job is the obvious way to go.

Thanks John, I feared that might be the case, can they not take into account her potential earnings? Or what about savings, circa £3000 or thereabouts?

I'd be entitled to child benefits even if I was a single father so the girlfriend being here wouldn't effect that so you would think they should take that into account, I can see their point on working tax benefits which I'd only get because of her being here.

I can't reduce my housing costs as it's already only £370 per month for my mortgage, fixed rate so no chance of it going up ever. Council tax is £75 per month.

I get paid £1070 per month net after tax, would this not be enough?

It will go up to £1096 in April with the new tax allowance.

I could increase it further by electing for less holidays next year, if I take 10 less days holidays I can get it to £1130, that should be enough shouldn't it?

Take home : £1130
Mortgage £370
Council Tax £75

Total remaining per month: £685

[John]

Quite deliberately the Immigration Rules don't specify exactly what the financial test is, except to say that the visa application must not need to claim Public Funds. That is there are no specific figures mentioned in the Immigration Rules, but decisions of the Immigration Tribunal have given a bit of detail. Which is why the Income Support figures get dragged in to a calculation.

But significant savings could well have an effect, and as regards earnings, a firm job offer is clearly going to help. It is just, as explained before, para 6C stops potential claims for benefits being taken into account, even though valid claims for those benefits will be OK as soon as the visa applicant actually arrives.

Looking at your figures, £1070 per month after deductions, less mortgage of £370 mortgage and £75 Council tax leaves £625 per month, and that equates to £144.23 per week, which is clearly less than the Income Support level for a couple and one child. Somehow you need to increase your net income by at least £20 per week in order to make sure than the financial test should be passed. The Income Support level for a couple and one child is £160.32 per week.

Going from £1070 to just over £1100 is clearly not enough.

[safc]

Quite deliberately the Immigration Rules don't specify exactly what the financial test is, except to say that the visa application must not need to claim Public Funds. That is there are no specific figures mentioned in the Immigration Rules, but decisions of the Immigration Tribunal have given a bit of detail. Which is why the Income Support figures get dragged in to a calculation.

But significant savings could well have an effect, and as regards earnings, a firm job offer is clearly going to help. It is just, as explained before, para 6C stops potential claims for benefits being taken into account, even though valid claims for those benefits will be OK as soon as the visa applicant actually arrives.

Looking at your figures, £1070 per month after deductions, less mortgage of £370 mortgage and £75 Council tax leaves £625 per month, and that equates to £144.23 per week, which is clearly less than the Income Support level for a couple and one child. Somehow you need to increase your net income by at least £20 per week in order to make sure than the financial test should be passed. The Income Support level for a couple and one child is £160.32 per week.

Going from £1070 to just over £1100 is clearly not enough.

Thanks, it really makes me sick that people can knock out child after child over here and never work but I can't bring my wife/baby over here and work, it's bad enough I have to wait until she's 21 so she'll have to struggle over there by herself for 6 months.

So I need £694 per month after mortgage/council tax. I'll have £685 per month if I decrease my holidays down to the minimum so I need to find £9 per month from somewhere.

Will it not matter that I'll have savings funds to cover the "shortfall" for years (even though there won't be one once I have access to funds such as child benefit which my child would have been entitled to with or without the mother being here).

Maybe I'll get first pay rise for 4 years and the problem will disappear, I won't be holding my breath for that though.

[Casa]

Won't you council tax increase once you're no longer a single occupant?
Assuming that you currently claim a discount.

[safc]

Won't you council tax increase once you're no longer a single occupant?
Assuming that you currently claim a discount.

Yes, but the £75 per month is the full amount, I currently pay £56 per month.

What if I don't mention the baby in the application, the baby doesn't need any sort of visa to move, in theory he could come later? It really is a crazy situation, we'll be fine with just my wages, we'll have nothing left but fine. I'll be entitled to another £350 or thereabouts in child/tax benefits which will mean we'll be more than fine.

It's a scary situation, whole life in the hands of an immigration officer. So being realistic, I need a part time job paying about £20 per week, so about 4 hours a week? If so, I'll see if I can find something stacking shelves for three months before the application or something.

[John]

safc, you emphasising the fact that the baby will be British ...... presumably you are British otherwise than by descent ... has made me have a further look at para 6C of the Immigration Rules which I quoted earlier.

That paragraph characterises P as the applicant and you will see that it stops additional benefits being taken into account because of P coming to the UK. Great apologies that I did not realise this before but the additional benefits will not be being paid because of P, your wife, coming to the UK, they will be being paid because the baby, a British Citizen, is coming to the UK! The arrival of your wife before the baby, with the baby or after the baby, will make no difference to the amount of benefits being claimed, not at least until she earns something in the UK.

Accordingly I now conclude that para 6C is not in play here, and the potential benefits can be taken into account. I say this because at least theoretically the baby could come first, before his mother, and the benefits would be in payment prior to mother arriving.

It would be oh so different if visa applications needed to be made for the wife and also for the child, for example because the child is a step-child and not British, because then para 6C would be in play. But here, no, it is not.

safc if you give us details of your gross earnings, before deductions, I can calculate the Tax Credits for you, and with the addition of Child Benefit, you can see how much benefit income you will receive.

Again, apologies!

[safc]

John, there's no need to apologise, I know you're trying your very best to help and it's much appreciated.

I'm British, my mother and father are both British going back several generations.

My gross earnings are currently £15,845, this is lower than it could be due to salary sacrifice (I buy extra holidays each year as I currently don't really need the money). If I take the minimum 28 days per year if need be instead I will receive circa an extra £600 gross per year taking it to circa £16,445.

Any help is appreciated, thanks.

[3point14]

There are various arguments to support your case which I went through, though fortunately I did not have to rely on them.

Timeline - life assurance is paid out if a suicide occurs more than 12 months after taking out the policy. Not only this but other contracts and so forth rarely look past 12 months as that is inferred to as the maximum time one can reasonably expect to look ahead in many circumstances. Thus, each £1000 or so is the rough equivalent to £20 per week. I was going to make that argument to the visa people and had argued the case through with some success on a logical basis with many people, though as I say, I did not have to test it. It remains a very persuasive argument as even a salaried job may not be guaranteed for 12 months.

The amount you should have is the equivalent benefits you would receive were she not subject to immigration control. You can work this out here http://www.turn2us.org.uk/benefits_search.aspx

One way around this would be to take a part time job of course. Another would be to take in a lodger though that could raise issues of sufficient accommodation etc. However you are only required to have a room for your own use and one for the child, so you would need 3 bedrooms in order to rent one out.

If the baby is born and in the UK either with you alone or with the mother (she could get a tourist visa) then you could legitimately claim benefits including child benefit which I believe would then be counted when she went back (with the child) as you are allowed a period of some 8 or 13 weeks (check) when the child can be absent from the UK but you still qualify for benefits. Not an ideal situation I acknowledge but it is a potential work around.

As soon as the baby arrives in the UK you can claim tax credits and child benefit backdated 3 months before they even arrived in the UK !!!! Daft I know but that is the law ! This ties into the temporary removal as well and their time limits.

Hope this helps.

[safc]

If the baby is born and in the UK either with you alone or with the mother (she could get a tourist visa) then you could legitimately claim benefits including child benefit which I believe would then be counted when she went back (with the child) as you are allowed a period of some 8 or 13 weeks (check) when the child can be absent from the UK but you still qualify for benefits. Not an ideal situation I acknowledge but it is a potential work around.

We could do that but we were told by someone that she might not get in on a tourist visa as they'll think she is going to overstay as she would have to leave her job etc which makes sense.

So you think in reality, I should be ok with my wage/mortgage ratio and able to include child benefit I will be entitled to even though I won't be claiming it at the time of the application?

Also, I could rent out a room to a friend/family member for say £300 per month, get receipts etc and this would be included, I have a third bedroom in the loft so although they wouldn't really be living there and I would refund them the money this would be ok for the visa purpose? I don't really want to be making up stuff if I don't have to.

It's a minefield and I'd be lost without sites like this!

[safc]

I did a very quick check on that site, obviously had to pretend the baby was born as it wouldn't work otherwise.

It says, based on my current wage of circa £15800 that we would be entitled to the following

Working Tax Credit : £18.18
Child Tax Credit : £65.17
Child Benefit : £20.30

Tota : £103.65

I did the search again, pretending I was a single father etc and it came out exactly the same, in my logic this means her being here isn't effecting the benefit so I should be able to class the child/working tax credit as earnings for the benefit of maintenance?

Do you think I would have to somehow get the child here first or something, or would the visa official realise I'd be entitled to the child benefit with or without the immigrant (wife/gf)?

[John]

I did the search again, pretending I was a single father etc and it came out exactly the same, in my logic this means her being here isn't effecting the benefit so I should be able to class the child/working tax credit as earnings for the benefit of maintenance?

Exactly, and there is the confirmation that para 6C is not in play. Your wife coming here will not increase the benefits.

Do you think I would have to somehow get the child here first or something, or would the visa official realise I'd be entitled to the child benefit with or without the immigrant (wife/gf)?

I think it would be worthwhile explaining this carefully when your wife applies for the visa. After all you want to show the benefit increase, but also explain why para 6C is not in play.

As long as the baby has a British passport I don't think it is necessary for the baby to come to the UK first.

Can we check the timeline here? When do the two of you intend to marry? When is the baby due? And when is your wife, as she will be, be 21 years old?

[safc]

I did the search again, pretending I was a single father etc and it came out exactly the same, in my logic this means her being here isn't effecting the benefit so I should be able to class the child/working tax credit as earnings for the benefit of maintenance?

Exactly, and there is the confirmation that para 6C is not in play. Your wife coming here will not increase the benefits.

Do you think I would have to somehow get the child here first or something, or would the visa official realise I'd be entitled to the child benefit with or without the immigrant (wife/gf)?

I think it would be worthwhile explaining this carefully when your wife applies for the visa. After all you want to show the benefit increase, but also explain why para 6C is not in play.

As long as the baby has a British passport I don't think it is necessary for the baby to come to the UK first.

Can we check the timeline here? When do the two of you intend to marry? When is the baby due? And when is your wife, as she will be, be 21 years old?

She will be 21 in August 2011, we plan to apply for visa three months in advance as I was advised that would be possible but the visa would be post dated for August 2011.

As for marrying, we're not 100% decided as of yet, it'll either be March/April 2010 in the USA or we'd go for a fiance visa and marry within 6 months of August 2011. We thought getting married in the USA might make it easier for visa and less expensive.

The baby is due in February 2011. The baby was unexpected and has complicated matters but we want to be together and were planning similar dates for her to move over here anyway.

[John]

She will be 21 in August 2011, we plan to apply for visa three months in advance as I was advised that would be possible but the visa would be post dated for August 2011.

That makes total sense, and is totally possible, to apply up to 3 months before the 21st birthday, and ask for the visa to start on her 21st birthday.

All I would add, to ensure it is clear that para 6C is not in play, get the child his/her British passport before making the visa application.

[safc]

She will be 21 in August 2011, we plan to apply for visa three months in advance as I was advised that would be possible but the visa would be post dated for August 2011.

That makes total sense, and is totally possible, to apply up to 3 months before the 21st birthday, and ask for the visa to start on her 21st birthday.

All I would add, to ensure it is clear that para 6C is not in play, get the child his/her British passport before making the visa application.

Thanks John, yes, we plan to get the baby his/her British Passport as soon as the baby is born. That's a whole new question there which I'll save for another day as I think she'll need to apply for that from the USA.

[safc]

Out of interest (and I'm not sure whether this should be on a new thread or not). In theory, if she applied for marriage visa 3 months before her 21st birthday and got it say a month later, could she travel to see me on a tourist visa before her birthday.

Would a day trip to Europe after her birthday validate her spouse visa, or is this clearly taking the water?

[John]

No, I don't think she can do that. I think the spouse visa might be cancelled if she enters as a visitor like that.