Will the Immigration Officer think my documents are fake?

[GrahamD85]

Hi again guys,

The copies of the bills I ordered from 3 have finally arrived for me and my girlfriends in-person appointment for the FLR(M) Unmarried Partners visa, but I'm concerned the Immigration Officer will think they're fake.

In short, I didn't have any letters addressed to me for the period April 09 - September 09, so I called 3 and asked if they could send the ebills from this date as paper copies to my address. They've done that and the bills are exactly the same as a paper bill a customer who wasn't receiving ebills would get in the post. They arrived with the address I was living at at that time, which is what I was after of course, but with a sticker over the old address for my new flat, which I've peeled off as they'd expect me to since the sticker was just to ensure they'd get to my new address. The print quality of the bills is shocking and looks like a shoddy print or a photocopy, even though they've come from the actual company.

The bills are exactly the same as I would have received if I'd had paper billing back in that period (they don't say 'copy' or 'duplicate' anywhere on them), but since they are printed one-sided and in poor quality black and white ink rather than the black and purple ink they normally come in, I'm worried the Immigration Officer will think I've printed these myself and I'm trying to pull a fast one.

I've got the original envelopes they arrived in with the 3 logo and address on them, but does keeping them in their envelopes make it look more suspicious?

These are genuine copies of bills but they look terrible and I really don't want the IO to think I've printed them myself from ebilling. Will they be suspicious and will this affect our application or turn it into a postal application due to them doubting the documents are originals?

I'm so frustrated!

[HRY2005]

I think it depends on the IO. If thats what you've got why not send it, they can verify from the issuer if they are not sure.

[GrahamD85]

We have an in-person appointment in Liverpool. I'm just annoyed because I've done everything in the proper way and now I'm concerned that the rubbish quality bills they've sent me, that feel slightly sticky over the address section, will let us down

At this point I'm not sure what else I can do. What I really need to work out is if taking them would be detrimental to the application, and if I have enough if I don't take them, which I'm not sure I do for that 6 month period.

My concern is that if they doubt the documents, they won't just make a quick call to 3 and confirm I'm a customer and that I ordered copies of these bills recently, they'll actually just say 'Sorry, we can't make a decision today as we'll have to look into it further' and then our passports are gone for months (which means my girlfriend could lose her job as it requires quite a bit of international travel.)

Does anyone know what happens if they doubt a document such as this?

Also, should I tell the IO officer the deal with these letters if they ask to see documents from those months i.e. that they're copies I ordered recently because I didn't realise this visa existed in that period and therefore wasn't saving letters?

[ElenaW]

Hey Graham,

Can you pop into a 3 shop and ask them to sign and date the bills? Or possibly right a letter with their signature and date on headed paper stating that the bills are real?

[GrahamD85]

Hi Elena,

Thanks for replying. I could do this, but when I spoke with an adviser on the UKBA phoneline, he told me any kind of written authentication such as that would mean a decision would not be made on the day and we'd then have to wait the same amount of time as someone submitting a postal application

Although I had asked another adviser on that number and he said to do this.

I just don't know what's best and I'm worried that making the wrong move would mean our application would need further investigation and my girlfriend could potentially lose her new job because our passports would be gone for a long time...

[ElenaW]

Hi Elena,

Thanks for replying. I could do this, but when I spoke with an adviser on the UKBA phoneline, he told me any kind of written authentication such as that would mean a decision would not be made on the day and we'd then have to wait the same amount of time as someone submitting a postal application

Although I had asked another adviser on that number and he said to do this.

I just don't know what's best and I'm worried that making the wrong move would mean our application would need further investigation and my girlfriend could potentially lose her new job because our passports would be gone for a long time...

Unfortunately the UKBA phoneline advisors are notorious for giving wrong advice. I would get the letter or some kind of verification. It shouldn't make your application complicated at all and I really don't see them making you submit it via the postal service.

[Casa]

Surely your application doesn't rely on the acceptance of the 3 mobile bills?
You only need 6 different proofs of joint address covering 3 separate categories for the 2 years...spread as evenly as possible. Even junk mail is acceptable if you have a gap.

[GrahamD85]

Hi Casa,

I have a big gap between April 09 - September 09 as I didn't know the visa existed. For some reason I saved bills before this period, even though I didn't know it existed then, but stupidly threw away nearly all the bills and statements I received between those months.

I know the application asks for 6 documents, but from others I've heard of up to 15 being asked for from different months. As you can see from the list below, if I remove those bills from 3, it starts to look like I wasn't at the address at that time. Or does it? If you don't think it does please do say so.



B= Both, joint statement
G= Mine
K= My girlfriends



Sep 08 – Joint bank statement (B), credit card statement (G)

Oct 08 – Joint bank statement (B), Council tax bill for me (G), Bank statement (K)

Nov 08 – Joint bank statement (B), Electricity statement (B), credit card statement (G)

Dec 08 – Bank statement (K), letter confirming job (K)

Jan 09 – Joint bank statement (B), credit card statement (G), Electricity statement (B), Bank statement (K), Car insurance letter (G)

Feb 09 – Joint bank statement (B), NHS letter (K), credit card statement (G)

Mar 09 – Water statement (B), Bank statement (K), Council Tax statement (G), Virgin bill (G)

Apr 09 – P45 from VS job (K), Bank statement (K), 3 bill DUPLICATE (G), hotel invoice (G)

May 09 - Can't find anything Sad

Jun 09 - Bank statement (K), 3 bill DUPLICATE (G)

Jul 09 – Water statement (B), Bank statement (K), 3 bill DUPLICATE (G)

Aug 09 - Bank statement (K), 3 bill DUPLICATE (G)

Sep 09 – Joint bank statement (B), employment agreement w/ payslips (K), Bank statement (K), 3 bill DUPLICATE (G)

Oct 09 – Joint bank statement (B), Bank statement (K)

Nov 09 – Joint bank statement (B), money transfer confirmation (K), Overdraft letter (B), Amazon invoice (K), home insurance letter (G), Pension letter (G), Virgin bill (G)

Dec 09 – HSBC money transfer confirmation, Kristen’s Lloyds statement, Car insurance renewal notice to Graham

Jan 10 – Joint bank statement (B), New debit card notice (K), Letter from Virgin Mobile (K), Bank letter (K), Letter from Credit Expert (K), Car insurance letter (G), Credit Expert letter (G)

Feb 10 – New debit card notice (G), Electricity statement (B), Council letter from MP (G), BT letter (G), Joint bank statement (B)

Mar 10 – Tenancy Agreement contract (B), Water statement (B), British Gas welcome letter (B) , Eon welcome letter (B), Letter confirming online purchase (K), NHS letter (K), Bank letter (G), Royal Mail letter (B)

Apr 10 – British Gas (B), TV license (G), Eon (B)

May 10 – Eon (B), Bank statement (K), Car Registration Cert from DVLA (G)

Jun 10 - Bank statement (K)

Jul 10 – Water statement (B), Bank statement (K)

Aug 10 - Eon (B)

[Casa]

You've got far more documental proof than many who apply successfully.
Although UPV applications tend to come under more scrutiny, you are allowed a short period apart during the 2 years and it would be a very unreasonable checking officer who refused due to copies covering the brief gap in evidence. Importantly, you have documents from the beginning of the 2 year period and up to the qualifying date.
You're right that when applying in person (bizarrely) they usually ask for more than the required 6 documents, which you have.
One interesting point, a friend of mine recently applied in Cardiff for spouse ILR and was only asked for bank statements and pay slips and was granted ILR without having to show anything more from the thick file of documents!

[GrahamD85]

Thanks Casa, that makes me feel a lot better. If they ask for bills from that period, is it worth me explaining honestly that I threw stuff away and that I'm aware that those bills look like I've printed them but they are copies from the company, or should I just say nothing and hand them over?

Also, as Elena suggests, do you think it's worth me getting them signed in a 3 store to show I'm aware they look like photocopies and have done something about it?

I'm so glad I signed up for this board, if I hadn't my application wouldn't be anywhere near as well-informed as it is now. As soon as we've had our appointment I'm going to write a post about how the appointment went and what others applying for this in person can expect because it's the least I can do.

[Kitty]

You seem to have a joint Water statement right in the middle of the period you're worried about (July 2009).

If you're worried about the 3 bills making things complicated I honestly think you have enough without them.

[ElenaW]

You seem to have a joint Water statement right in the middle of the period you're worried about (July 2009).

If you're worried about the 3 bills making things complicated I honestly think you have enough without them.

Agreed. The 3 bills signature/date that I mentioned was pretty much only for Graham's peace of mind. I know how nervous people get before applying.

[Casa]

I wouldn't bring the 3 bills to the officers attention. Include them with all the other paperwork and don't mention you're concerned about them being copies.
The documents you're submitting show that the relationship 'akin to marriage' has been continuing at a joint address for the full 24 months, which is what they'll want to see.
Keep us updated.

[GrahamD85]

Cheers guys.

I'm going to call UKBA on Monday and just see what they say out of interest. I'll let you know what they say Monday and then I need to decide if taking this bills would make our application weaker, or if I have the balls to leave them out and hope it'll be ok without. I'll let you know what UKBA say Monday though, as it may be of use to others.

[GrahamD85]

Just to add to that, the reason I'm concerned about not taking those bills from 3 is because we have quite a lot from the other months, so I was worried that a gap like that, although it still meets the criteria as a whole, may concern the IO as we have so many documents from periods before and after in comparison. I don't know if they would view it with suspicion and if they would do anything about it if they did, as we're fulfilling the rules of having 6 documents spread evenly over 2 years.

I'm fine with taking copies of documents sent officially by the company but these bills from 3 don't say 'copy' on them anywhere, and as they're printed in black and on standard printer paper I'm concerned the IO will see them as me just printing ebills because there's nothing to suggest otherwise.

I should also add that we have lived together with no one else in 3 different addresses since September 2007 and have those 3 tenancy agreements with both our names on each of them, which should count for something.

[Casa]

Graham bear in mind that UKBA staff handling telephone queries are notorious for giving incorrect or out of date information.
The tenancy agreements for the 3 different addresses throughout the 2 years add strength to your documentary evidence.

[GrahamD85]

I'll take whatever they tell me with a grain of salt. Last time I called twice to verify what I had been told and got two different answers!

I'm just trying to get as much info as possible to help me do the right thing and be prepared. I'm going to take the bills from 3 with me as you recommended and only explain if I'm asked about them. If I do hand them over but don't mention that they are copies, I won't get in trouble for withholding information or misleading will I?

[Casa]

Graham, what information would you be withholding? The fact that 3 have provided you with copies? Of course not. Put this out of your mind, include the 3 statements and let the checking officer pick which documents they want from everything you're submitting.

[GrahamD85]

Sorry to confuse Casa, if I have. What I mean is that because they look such poor quality and do not say 'copy' or 'duplicate' on them (therefore just looking like photocopies of an original bill, which isn't permitted), should I tell them when I hand them over that they are duplicates of the original statement that have been re-sent to me (which is permitted) as this would make the officer understand why they look poor?

I've never been for an in-person appointment so I wasn't sure if being up-front about that would do me a favour rather than having the IO think I've brought photocopies along with me.

Apologies for going on a bit, as I've said previously I want to make sure everything goes through on the day and it is approved there and then because of my girlfriend's new job requiring her to travel a lot. Thanks again.

[Casa]

It's OK, I know how you're feeling, but the appointment is far less intense than I believe you think it will be. You'll submit the documents, they'll select what they want and if they decide to pull out the 3 bills (which they may well not) then at that point you can casually mention (if you choose) that these are copies issued by the company at your request. You won't be 'withholding' information if you choose not to bring them to their attention. There's no false declaration being made here.
You don't necessarily have to submit documents from every month...just spread as evenly as possible, nothing more.

[GrahamD85]

Thanks for that. I had been speaking to someone else who went for this appointment last year and told me the person checking the documents will pick random months for you to show bills for, so you're actively handing them over rather than just giving them the whole file of documents you've taken and letting them go through it. It may have changed though and it may be the case that different people who work their have different methods.

I think I've built this up in my head to be, as you say, maybe more intense than it will be due to this visa being one of the more scrutinised. This is probably also due to my view of visas as being barriers for getting on with our lives, which in some respects they are. I'll try to stop thinking of the people there as the bad guys though.

[Casa]

Better to think of them as 'gateways' rather than barriers!

[GrahamD85]

That's a positive spin on it

I just called the UKBA out of interest and asked about the 3 statements. The lady I spoke to said it would be up to me if I took them, but if I did I'd need to just explain that they are genuine and that they were sent by 3 after I asked for them. She said if it was possible to go into a branch and get an official stamp put on every bill then that would help.

She said if I have other documents for that month I could just leave them out, but I'm not personally sure I have enough for that period between April and September to do that.

I asked while I was on there about savings too. My girlfriend and I earn around 50,000 per year combined and it was only last week that I thought it would be an idea to have a copy of the statement showing my savings sent to me. I didn't realise this would go to my parents address as that's where I had the account still registered as I barely use it. She said that would be fine as it's just showing money. I don't know if the statements have turned up yet but I'm thinking I might pop into the bank and ask if they can print and stamp a copy of them anyway. If I did this, with or without the stamp, is that acceptable to show savings? If I can't get them to print it does it matter anyway since we both work full-time and can show that we have money in our accounts? I wasn't sure if savings mattered at all.

[GrahamD85]

I'm thinking I'll go into a 3 store this afternoon just to see if they have an official stamp they can put on each statement. I'm not going to necessarily get them stamped today, I just want to see.

If they do then I have to make a decision to either take them along as they are, as Casa suggested, and if the document checking person picks them out I then explain that these were statements I requested from the company that were posted to me or say nothing unless asked.

The other option, as Elena suggested, is to get them stamped at the 3 store if they have one and if the document checking person picks them out I explain that I requested them from the company and they were posted to me, but I wanted them further validated and so took them to a local branch of the store (and then hope the UKBA guy who told me that would lead to further checks and no decision on the day was wrong)

Argh, everyone offers such good advice that I don't know which way to go. Elena and Casa, fancy an old school-style duel to decide a winner? Haha. I'll nip to 3 now and let you know if they even have a stamp available.

I hope I'm not annoying anyone by updating this topic, I just think it could be of use to another person viewing the board who may find themselves in a similar situation now or in the future.

[GrahamD85]

Right, I've just got back from visiting two different 3 stores to see about getting the bills stamped. Both of them said they don't have stamps available at the stores, or even headed paper, as all admin work is done by the guys in the call centres. I called the call centre and asked if I could get a letter from them saying the bills were genuine and that they sent them to me on that date, but they said they couldn't do that. I could ask someone in one of the 3 stores to sign and date the bills, but since I could just do this myself and make up a name that they'll never check, I don't think it adds any authenticity.

On a positive note I went to the bank and got them to print and stamp a statement showing my savings and they even wrote and signed a seperate letter confirming this was my account number to go along with the statement, so that's sorted. It has my old address from a different city on the top as I don't receive statements from them in the post anyway and haven't gotten around to changing it in 4 years (lazy, I know), but according to the lady I spoke to from UKBA that'll be fine because it's just showing savings, not proving where I live.

So with the 3 bills, now that getting them stamped/verified is out the window, I'm ultimately left with two options.

1. Take them with me and explain if they ask for them that they're duplicates I requested and I also tried to get a letter sent to me proving they were from 3 and tried to get them stamped in-store, but 3 weren't able to do this for me.

2. Don't take them and hope the stuff I do have is enough (which I'm not sure it is)

As I mentioned in the other thread, 3 also sent me PDF versions of the bills they posted, but they're much higher quality than the ones I was posted and are in full colour. I could print these and use them instead as there would be no visible difference in the way they're formatted and the address (apart from the PDF versions looking a lot more credible), but I'd feel dodgy doing this and I'm sure it goes against a rule somewhere even though I'm only doing what 3 did by posting me those bills.