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Working Visa (Stamp 4) - Need business permission?!

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walkindublin
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Working Visa (Stamp 4) - Need business permission?!

Post by walkindublin » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:33 pm

A working visa (Stamp 4) holder have been working in Ireland for yrs..

Does he need a business permission to setup a business?

P.S.
According to INIS website, working visa holders don't qualify for exemption of business permission (http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP09000012); however, the GNIB officer says visa holder can do business in Ireland.

Could anyone clarify it please?

Thanks,

W

Heinlein
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Post by Heinlein » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:33 pm

I was in a similar position, wrote an email to INIS and got a positive response, i.e. that I do have the right to register a new business in Ireland.

However, keep in mind that your Work Visa requires you to be employed on a full-time basis regardless of any other circumstances, e.g. whether the business is yours or not, and also pay your PAYE/PRSI taxes.

Business permission itself is a different matter. A business permission is essentially a permission to remain in Ireland on the basis of a 300k investment, without being full-time employed. In other words, if you have some money you are willing to invset and you simply want to live in Ireland, you need a BP. Which is not the case of a WV holder, since he/she is already legally resident in the State.

Please note I'm not a lawyer and this is not a legal advice! Hope it helps though.

9jeirean
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Post by 9jeirean » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:48 pm

To the best of my knowledge,stamp 4 on working visa/work-authorization does not allow you to set up your own business. I think it might have been confused with some other form of stamp 4 e.g IBC, spouses of Irish citizens etc. The original premise of the working-visa/work-authorization scheme was that the holder is granted permission as an employee to work for a specified employer albeit with freedom to change employer but you must stay within the specified job description for which you were originally granted the permit.

Here's the official category of people exempted from business permission

EXEMPTIONS

A number of categories of non-EEA nationals are exempt from the requirement to obtain Business Permission. The categories are as follows:-
persons who have been granted refugee status by the Minister for Justice and Law Reform.
dependant relatives of EEA nationals exercising a valid right to reside in Ireland.
persons who have been granted permission to remain in the State on one of the following grounds:-
persons with permission to remain as the spouse of an Irish national.
persons with permission to remain in Ireland on the basis that they are the parent of an Irish born child ( an Irish citizen).
persons who have been granted temporary leave to remain in the State on humanitarian grounds, having been in the asylum process.

Source: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP09000012
However, those previously on working visa/authorization who have now been granted Long Term Residency http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Lo ... _Residency can set up their own business but not before they are granted LTR.


PS: @Heinlein, it's interesting you got that response in writing from INIS and they wouldn't state same anywhere on their website. I find it intriguing that they have a lot info re entitlement of persons on WV/WA scheme to LTR and the 5 years automatic extension scheme http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Pr ... ar_workers and no word about their entitlement to set up business.
Last edited by 9jeirean on Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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walkindublin
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Post by walkindublin » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:55 pm

Heinlein wrote:I was in a similar position, wrote an email to INIS and got a positive response, i.e. that I do have the right to register a new business in Ireland.....
Thanks Heinlein,
the first two lines answered my question more than enough :P

As long as INIS confirms WV holder's right for setup a business, that'd be enough.

Of couse, understand that I have to stay in full-time employed (for Stamp 4 purpose) at the same time.

8)

Heinlein
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Post by Heinlein » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:01 pm

9jeirean, as I explained above, the Business Permission scheme allows you to stay in the State on the basis of your 300k investment. Because a WV holder doesn't need a permission to stay - he/she has already got one - a BP is not needed.

One caveat here, however: one of the directors of your company has to be a EEA resident. This is a completely different issue which has nothing to do with BP's.

I inquired INIS about being on WV/Stamp4 and being a co-founder of a company where one of the co-founders is an Irish resident, and I got a positive response.

Practically, to be safe, you need a resident partner co-founder, but there is nothing wrong with being a shareholder of a company you are working for full-time.

walkindublin
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Post by walkindublin » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:42 pm

Heinlein wrote:....One caveat here, however: one of the directors of your company has to be a EEA resident...
1. Where does this caveat come from?

2. If just 'a EEA resident' will do, then WV holders should be automatically qualified for this condition, as WV holders who working here, are residents of Ireland.

agniukas
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Post by agniukas » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:49 pm

he probably meant 'EEA national resident'

Heinlein
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Post by Heinlein » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:52 pm

walkindublin wrote:2. If just 'a EEA resident' will do, then WV holders should be automatically qualified for this condition, as WV holders who working here, are residents of Ireland.
I'm not sure. Note that you need at least one partner/co-founder for your company in any case: you can't register a company alone. Then everything will depend on your partner's status.

In case your partner(s) are not EEA residents (EEA citizens or Irish Stamp 5 holders), then your best bet would be to inquire CRO about your situation.

If one of your partners is a resident (citizen/Stamp5), then your problem is solved, I think.

9jeirean
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Post by 9jeirean » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:45 pm

Heinlein wrote:
walkindublin wrote:2. If just 'a EEA resident' will do, then WV holders should be automatically qualified for this condition, as WV holders who working here, are residents of Ireland.
I'm not sure. Note that you need at least one partner/co-founder for your company in any case: you can't register a company alone. Then everything will depend on your partner's status.

In case your partner(s) are not EEA residents (EEA citizens or Irish Stamp 5 holders), then your best bet would be to inquire CRO about your situation.

If one of your partners is a resident (citizen/Stamp5), then your problem is solved, I think.
Maybe I am not reading you correctly, but your last post appears to be a departure from your original post. In any case, it would still have been of help if such vital info as you posited would be made available on INIS, Dept of Trade and Enterprise or even the CRO's website. Now so more than ever that the country is crying out for entrepreneurship.

@walkindublin: It might not harm if you write INIS just to be very sure and please share their response with us.
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Heinlein
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Post by Heinlein » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:04 am

9jeirean, the original question was: does a WV holder need a business permission to setup a business? The answer is NO, to the best of my knowledge and based on the email I received from INIS.

Then, from the practical point of view, if you want to set up a business in Ireland being on WV/Stamp4, you have to first exclude Sole Trader because you have to be employed full-time. So Sole Trader is definitely not for you.

Further, among the remaining options is a Limited Company, which requires partnership with someone else, and there is a rule of at least one EEA director when forming a company. I should have mentioned that in the beginning, sorry about that.

9jeirean
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Post by 9jeirean » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:45 am

Heinlein wrote:9jeirean, the original question was: does a WV holder need a business permission to setup a business? The answer is NO, to the best of my knowledge and based on the email I received from INIS.

Then, from the practical point of view, if you want to set up a business in Ireland being on WV/Stamp4, you have to first exclude Sole Trader because you have to be employed full-time. So Sole Trader is definitely not for you.

Further, among the remaining options is a Limited Company, which requires partnership with someone else, and there is a rule of at least one EEA director when forming a company. I should have mentioned that in the beginning, sorry about that.
No problem at all Heinlein. Knowing INIS and their penchant for making up the rules as they go along, it didn't come as a surprise you got that response. As someone who had gone through the works myself I would like to see that policy made official, rather than something one would have to write in secrecy to receive a response to . I am sure you can understand how much relief it would be for a lot of people on the WV/WA scheme to be able to get an independent business going for themselves. As I said before, the time couldn't be more apt. The state is desperately in need of entrepreneurs.

Let's look at it this way, the last of the WV/WA permits were issued in December 2005, which means anyone on the scheme would have been at least 4 years legally resident and tax compliance in the state anyway. When you look at the list of professions on the scheme, these are cutting edge high skills jobs that should be driving the so called smart economy that the government has been harping on about. Say an IT specialist currently on the scheme is expressed allowed to set up his own IT consultancy firm, you can imagine the potential knock-on effect on possible jobs creation for others not to talk of the economic contribution it brings to the state no matter how little. Let's look at another example: the current speech and Language therapy (SLT) waiting list in some part of Dublin runs up to 24 months, same goes to other allied health services covered under the WV/WA scheme. Say a SLT is allowed to set up their own SLT clinic, let those who can afford to pay for private therapy attend, that's a huge relief on the overstretched HSE resources and a relief to the parents of such children that would benefit from such service.

The point here is, there's a lot of rhetorics about the vision for a smart economy and all that jazz. The reality is there's a lot of potentials on the ground. Failed banks and NAMA are not the only legacy of the Celtic Tiger era. Appropriate and positively oriented policies to harness the potentials in the right directions would go along way. Immigration is not only all about bogus asylum seekers and professional baby mamas & Papas.
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Post by Heinlein » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:06 pm

9jeirean, I agree, skilled immigrants is a big entrepreneurial force in Ireland, potentially at least. However, I don't see any conspiracy going around the right of WV holders to start their own businesses.

Let's see what we know and think logically: (1) anyone can be a shareholder of an Irish company, (2) one of the co-founders of an Irish Limited company should be a EEA resident and (3) a WV holder has to be employed on a full-time basis. BP's are a different matter (and are confusing unless you think about it a bit).

So what stops you from incorporating a Limited company in Ireland together with an Irish or a EEA partner? Any kind of split goes: could be 50/50 or 99/1.

Again, this is not a legal advice as I'm absolutely not competent in this area. Just trying to encourage.

9jeirean
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Post by 9jeirean » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:37 pm

Heinlein wrote:9jeirean, I agree, skilled immigrants is a big entrepreneurial force in Ireland, potentially at least. However, I don't see any conspiracy going around the right of WV holders to start their own businesses.

Let's see what we know and think logically: (1) anyone can be a shareholder of an Irish company, (2) one of the co-founders of an Irish Limited company should be a EEA resident and (3) a WV holder has to be employed on a full-time basis. BP's are a different matter (and are confusing unless you think about it a bit).

So what stops you from incorporating a Limited company in Ireland together with an Irish or a EEA partner? Any kind of split goes: could be 50/50 or 99/1.

Again, this is not a legal advice as I'm absolutely not competent in this area. Just trying to encourage.
Fair point Heinlein, while I agree that the joint/shared venture option is a bridge for those who are so inclined, but maybe not every one would be open to such huge level of compromise particularly if you are looking at building a business from the scratch. You will agree with me that most people in business would need that bit of freedom (financial and strategic) to be able to make that initial imprints that every business needs especially at the infancy stage.

Another important thing to consider is: what happens say in the event that the joint EEA partner decides to pull out of the business?

IMHO, the fair way to do this would be to expressly allow anyone on this scheme at the moment to migrate to another residency level that permits them to independently set up their own bussiness as it is the case for all other forms of stamp 4 (WV/WA are the only category of stamp 4 holders that are not allowed to independently set up their own bussiness). This pathway is part of the proposed immigration bill for those on the Green card scheme anyway. it is a shame the bill has been languishing in the Dáil for all of eternity. Seeing it's potentials for job creation and entrepreneurship, that the country so desperately needs now, I don't see any reason why the minister for Justice couldn't introduce it as an administrative scheme in the main time.

Cheers.
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walkindublin
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Post by walkindublin » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:18 pm

9jeirean wrote:
Heinlein wrote:9jeirean, I agree, skilled immigrants is a big entrepreneurial force in Ireland, potentially at least. However, I don't see any conspiracy going around the right of WV holders to start their own businesses.

Let's see what we know and think logically: (1) anyone can be a shareholder of an Irish company, (2) one of the co-founders of an Irish Limited company should be a EEA resident and (3) a WV holder has to be employed on a full-time basis. BP's are a different matter (and are confusing unless you think about it a bit).

So what stops you from incorporating a Limited company in Ireland together with an Irish or a EEA partner? Any kind of split goes: could be 50/50 or 99/1.

Again, this is not a legal advice as I'm absolutely not competent in this area. Just trying to encourage.
Fair point Heinlein, while I agree that the joint/shared venture option is a bridge for those who are so inclined, but maybe not every one would be open to such huge level of compromise particularly if you are looking at building a business from the scratch. You will agree with me that most people in business would need that bit of freedom (financial and strategic) to be able to make that initial imprints that every business needs especially at the infancy stage.

Another important thing to consider is: what happens say in the event that the joint EEA partner decides to pull out of the business?

IMHO, the fair way to do this would be to expressly allow anyone on this scheme at the moment to migrate to another residency level that permits them to independently set up their own bussiness as it is the case for all other forms of stamp 4 (WV/WA are the only category of stamp 4 holders that are not allowed to independently set up their own bussiness). This pathway is part of the proposed immigration bill for those on the Green card scheme anyway. it is a shame the bill has been languishing in the Dáil for all of eternity. Seeing it's potentials for job creation and entrepreneurship, that the country so desperately needs now, I don't see any reason why the minister for Justice couldn't introduce it as an administrative scheme in the main time.

Cheers.
Good Point 9jeirean;

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