Age Descrimination? Anti-American Sentiment?

[rlo2tlj]

Hi All!

I have been in the UK for a bit over 2 months now. I hold a HSMP visa. I am having a very difficult time gaining employment here. I have applied to over 80 postings and have had only 1 interview. That interview was unsuccessful because I "lack UK experience". I had one recruiter tell me that I should just go back to America and leave the jobs to the British citizens. Okay...

Then I went to the JobCentre for my interview for my National Insurance number. The manager of the the interviewer told me flat out that I would have difficulty finding work because of my age. I'm 47.

When ever I speak with recruiters, the conversations last about 3 minutes. And some have said "Oh, you're American".

I am a technical project manager (certified by PMI), have been in the IT industry for 20+ years, have managed several IT departments, and specialize in network infrastructure design/engineering as well as business process re-engineering and operations management. I have been told that my CV is solid and "impressive" (what ever that means).

I'm not sure what to do at this point....I think my interviewing skills are okay (e.g. not coming across as the brash American).

Is it me? Or is there truly age descrimination and/or anti-American sentiment here?


Thanks in advance!


=R

[Khurram]

I know its probably a long shot, but have you tried getting in touch with this person?

Regards

[amhilde]

rlo-

Hang in there! Dont let a couple of people making snide comments put you out. Is there anyway you can knock off a few years of experience on the CV so its not so intimidating? At least to get "UK experience" ( which I think they hide behind) by getting a short term contract?

just a few thoughts.

[rlo2tlj]

Hi Amhilde,

Thank you for your suggestions. I have been trying to get a contract position in addition to permanant. Nothing. I have even thought of using a friend to pose as a former supervisor of a contract position, but that's fraud. I have even shaved 10 years off my telecom history.

I'm at wits end at this point. I have even thought of starting my own business in a non-IT related industry. But, because I am here on an HSMP visa I'm not sure of the legalities of it (see my posting in the HSMP section of this forum). I don't want to be deported because I can not find work.

[kumi]

I know its probably a long shot, but have you tried getting in touch with this person?

Regards

sorry for the digression !!
I just got mentioned, so, I want to re-iterate the fact that those offers are still valid and my agent never forgets to drop a note about them when ever he talks to me. There are some 20 positions to be filled for the same profile. C/Unix/Rtos/Telecom/Wireless domain.

[rlo2tlj]

Thanks Kumi!

Does your agent handle certified project managers?



=R

[bugmaster]

rlo2tlj, thsi posting does not mean to disappoint you but on the countrary.
I have a friend here which is a cotractor. He has more than 15 years software development experience and has worked for big companies like sony and GE plus a few more of the same rank. He is aged 40+. During his last search for jobs he has applied to 1000+ positions. and he got another contract 1.5 months after he started the search. He is not Brit. I spoke to him about it and he said: your experience, the big company names ini your cv. - does not matter. it is all about luck. it is all about speaking to the proper agent. of course you don't know who the proper is. so just send as many cvs as possible and you'll get there. sooner or later. he said it is almost the same as 5 years ago. doesn't matter he's added another few big names to his cv. agents will only search through your cv - they wont read it. so put the proper words there. and when you get to speak to the company then it is up to you.
job centre personell - leave them. I only heard bad things about them. and not from one or two persons only.
good luck!

[amhilde]

Thats true of most things in life bugmaster- I swear I get scanned over for job placements here in the US just because I dont have a big name school on my resume or I dont have a local address (when applying to jobs accross the country). Job searching is incredibly frustrating wherever you may be, though in an ageist situation like this one, I suppose rlo can take comfort in the fact that eventually these people telling him this stuff now will most likely one day be facing the exact same situation. Not that it makes anything better short term, but still- what goes around tends to come around.

rlo- dont worry about being deported the UK cant even manage to deport known militants, so I doubt youll be on the hit list Besides, you have a long time yet before you are up for HSMP renewal- some people get a job two months before renewal and still get it OR they have mediocre jobs just to get by and they still get renewal. Dont fret about that. Are you down in London then? Have you considered looking up in the North at all?

How old was the Job Centre manager anyway? What a jerk- I mean my god, life doesnt end when you pass 40. Eh, look at it from his perspective, hes a job centre manager, I would probably hate the world too.

[vin123]

rlo2tlj

Take it easy - It’s just a matter of time with a combination of your luck before you hit the right one.
I don't think being 'American' is a reason for no job offer or discrimination here.
Also, It doesn't do any good to a recruiter' or an employer' business if they decide not to take you for being a non-British.

Please don’t take this as an advice, but it is very important from your job hunting perspective that you keep away or totally erase these 'inner feelings' and move on with a cool and positive frame of mind.

Good luck,

[rlo2tlj]

rlo- dont worry about being deported the UK cant even manage to deport known militants, so I doubt youll be on the hit list Besides, you have a long time yet before you are up for HSMP renewal- some people get a job two months before renewal and still get it OR they have mediocre jobs just to get by and they still get renewal.

That's good to know amhilde. I truly love living here and want to make the UK my permanant home. My HSMP is up for renewal mid- next year. And before that, I hope to be changing to a spousal visa. Once that happens a huge weight will be lifted as to what type of work I can do. I have been seriously looking at attending one of the country's best dog grooming schools and then going into business for myself. I have 4 dogs of my own, and would love very much to leave the corporate world.

Are you down in London then? Have you considered looking up in the North at all?

No, I'm in the west country; just outside Bristol. I have a geographic area available to me that includes the Thames Valley (M3/M4 corridor), Wiltshire, Bristol, Taunton, Exeter, Poole, Bournemouth, to Southampton. Moving up north is definitely an option for us; even Scotland. I've been told Leeds is a really nice area.

How old was the Job Centre manager anyway?

He was in his mid- to late-40's.

...life doesnt end when you pass 40.

I couldn't agree more!!! Life begins at 40! I wouldn't want to return to my 20's or 30's for love nor money!! And, I truly mean that.

Thank you for your kind words! I will just keep applying until the right job presents itself to me....and hopefully before I run out of money!

=R

[rlo2tlj]

rlo2tlj

Take it easy - It’s just a matter of time with a combination of your luck before you hit the right one.
I don't think being 'American' is a reason for no job offer or discrimination here.

Thank you! That is refreshing to know. It's quite fun when I'm in Sainsbury's, Tesco, or Asda and I begin to speak. The number of people that turn around to see who I am because of the American accent. I have been told by a lot of people that with my personality it will be very easy for me to make new friends here. I can't tell you how many British people have said to me "you actually like living here!?"....and when I smile and say "absolutely! I have no desire to return to America!" they just smile as if they are saying "good! Welcome to England!"

Please don’t take this as an advice, but it is very important from your job hunting perspective that you keep away or totally erase these 'inner feelings' and move on with a cool and positive frame of mind.

Absolutely! I couldn't agree more! I am usually quite good at removing these thoughts. They usually come up when I am sitting here with no interviews scheduled and no phone calls. It's just frustrating...however, I am the eternal optimist.

Good luck,

Thank you Vin!


=R

[kumi]

Thanks Kumi!

Does your agent handle certified project managers?



=R

Hi Rlo,

All I can say is please send me a copy of your resume, my agent will get in touch with you if required.
Being in your position, it might be slightly difficult to land up with a job of equivalent stature., please think about taking up a lower position, and once you get the coveted "UK experience", your accent will be exponential..

My 2 pennies.... getting a good job in UK might be difficult to start with ., that too specifically in the same line as which we are working. It all depends on the demand for the required skillsets. Its a totally different place with its own standards and culture from where we all come from. The following can be done:

o Subscribe to as much job sites as possible. On a daily basis you have to browse through the job postings. I saw that on any typical day more than 200 new jobs are posted on jobserve.com in IT field. Its a laborious process, but, its required.

o Have multiple resumes highlighting different skill sets you have worked on before. Job requirements are for different domains. Over the wide range of experience we have, we might have worked on different projects which will fit the requirements. Highlight those. Never try the unknown, coz, your job agent will take feedback from prospective employers who just interviewed you. If you did badly, then the agent will stop referring you. Brush up on basics....

o If the jobs specs are on the borderline of your skill sets, still go ahead and apply. Most of the time, the agents will hold on to your resume for similar requirements and contact you in future.

o Always be good to job agents., few agents will go out of the way to help you., its not just money thing !!!

o Be a little bit selfish ., dont mention about the number of interviews you are taking up to anyone. Its always Zero and fully available for interview anytime when the agent wants. If its clashing with previous commitments., tell them you have a Date !!! follow up properly, coz, the agent will remember you had a date when he calls up next time

All the best to you guys...

regards
kumi

[rlo2tlj]

Hi Kumi!

Yes, I totally understand about getting a really good job right out of the gate. And I am completely willing to take a lower paying job. To be perfectly honest, the money comes secondary to me....if I really enjoy what I am doing, then the money provides the icing on the cake (sorry about all the colloquialisms).

And, I am always polite and professional to the agents. It is no different here than in America with that regard. They ARE the gatekeepers.

As far as subscribing to job sites....you should see my bookmark list! Every Monday morning I go to the sites to make sure that my CV has been "refreshed" as being recently submitted. I have so many different versions of my CV that I have now had to keep their file names as what position they highlight....and even to which company they have been focused on.

I think one thing that I should probably work on is my "cheerful personality". I am always smiling, have a generally positive outlook to everything, and always keen to saying "Please" and "Thank You"; all with it being genuine, not fake. However, with the British society being quite reserved, I wonder if I could be perceived as too "colorful" (as one person described most Americans). I am VERY conscious of coming across as a brash American.

Thanks for your help Kumi!


=R

[amhilde]

rlo-

Thats a nice part of the country- Ive been out that way in the Bristol area and its surrounding fields. Personally Im partial to the East Midlands as well- some people say Nottingham is a bit rough, but I liked it and didnt feel threatened there at all. Nice happy little shopping district and two universities give it a bit of life- and I went in December and was impressed

Thanks for the heads-up on 40 . Im at the end of my 20s here and I know they are supposed to be "the best time of your life" but man, I cant say theyve been all that much fun. Keep us posted on your job situation!

[Rogerio]

Rlo2tlj,

just a bit of inspiration to keep you going.

I am a Brazilian guy, came to the UK as a full time student to do an MBA (no work permit) after having worked for big multinationals in Brazil in the IT sector.

My MBA had about 80% Europeans, so I thought what chance does a latino chico of finding a job comparable to, or better, of what I had back in Brazil?

Well, after a lot of CV writing, and very few interviews, I got a lucky break that not only provided me with the much needed Work Permit (which you do not need), plus the UK Experience.

This got me out of my catch 22, and even provided me with the platform to jump to a much higher position, even higher than what I would have managed in Brazil.

So, against what anyone tells you, this *is* possible, the UK is one of the most liberal countries in the world, and there is not such a thing as discrimination if YOU don't feel discrimiated. I always used being a foreigner to my advantage. You're culturally aware, more open to challenges, more adaptable, etc etc etc.

Please don't let a few idiotic comments let you down. These comments could have come from anyone in the world. Many times when Im over on business to America I get asked the question "how did you escape Brazil"? And there is nothing in Brazil to escape from. It's a wonderful country, with huge professional potential, with wonderful people. I just wanted to see the world from a different light.

Now it's about 7 years that I have been in the UK, am a British citizen and proud of it, and also very proud of Brazil.

Try and get your lucky break too. And one day you will be telling your stories to others.

Best of luck to you... and if you get a chance, drop us a line every now and then to let us know of your progress.

I am sure you will succeed. Good people always do.

Rogerio

[Kayalami]

Rlo2tlj,

You have received excellent all round advice from many of the bb members. I would add that IMHO the anti american sentiment many of your countrymen refer to when in the UK is actually that againt the administration rather than individuals per se. It may be worth you contacting by way of pm my fellow moderator Joseph who is in the Telecoms sector and is also a USC. Best wishes and welcome to the UK.

[fdias]

I would confirm that there's no discrimination at all here in UK. In my case, I started having problems with the agents - at first I wasn't receiving a single response. But I started to make adjustments on my CV and the results were impressive - as I was adjusting it I was seeing the number of agents' replies increase. One day I was nobody, and on the following days there were people looking for me. I concluded that the blame for my initial failure was on my CV writing skills, and not on people's discrimination.

[joebeckerinpoland]

I hear ya.... Im American living in Poland with Polish wife. We are about to migrate to UK to settle. I hear xenophobic statements all the time here. And I anticipate the same to my wife and I when we get to UK.... but we must be tough and say to ourselves in our heads "f-them".....

Any hot leads on jobs for a man with a masters in Communication?

JB

[lemess]

I hear ya.... Im American living in Poland with Polish wife. We are about to migrate to UK to settle. I hear xenophobic statements all the time here. And I anticipate the same to my wife and I when we get to UK.... but we must be tough and say to ourselves in our heads "f-them".....

Any hot leads on jobs for a man with a masters in Communication?

JB

With that attitude you are likely to get along great ... NOT.

Whatever you hear, the UK is one of the most tolerant countries in the world and people generally do not discriminate based on your origins, accent etc. Of course if you go to rural outposts, ignorance abounds but I wouldn't call this a xenophobic society at all. You are almost certainly less likely to encounter xenophobia here than in other places in europe ( especially if you're conspicuously 'foreign' looking which I'm not sure you are ).

Yes the Bush administration is not wildly popular here ( no different to 99% of the world ) but people certainly do not have any general antipathy to americans. Bear in mind that in the south at least people tend to be more reserved and not as outgoing and social as the average american but that doesn't equal xenophobia in my view.

[herman404]

Hi R,

I'm American, and although I can't speak for the rest of the country, I did not encounter any anti-American sentiment here in London. In fact, with a lot of the banks here being American like Goldmans, Merrills, that it was more of a benefit than being a hindrance. But I don't know how it is for other sectors, or other geographic areas. The recruiters will take you seriously if you apply from the UK, instead of the US, and if you have good skills, it shouldn't be a problem. It is definitely a up market here, not only in banking, but I heard mobile telecom is up as well, as I have had to turn some job offers down. Have you considered moving to London?

[basis]

Yes the Bush administration is not wildly popular here ( no different to 99% of the world )

overall very good thread...very refreshing and some very honest, revealing and helpful posts.......keep it on

[gulgon]

Hi rlo2tlj

If you face any age or race discrimination, dont forget this is an illegal act and I advice you to keep a recorder with you or try to get written statements, even via email. And use them to sue them.

Or, at least tell them if they have any facial or age discrimination, believe it will freak them out terribly, as this is a crime close to raping here!! Even the most dearly beloved person starts speaking like "hey dont get me wrong, I am not a dearly beloved but bla bla..."

To job search issue, although I am not as experienced as you are, I was probably lucky to find a good agency. She arranged like 3-4 interviews in 2 weeks! The agency was good i think because it was specialised in a certain field (online marketing). And they were like 3 people all together.

I am a Turkish citizen with hsmp, and although I speak non-native level of English and I get nominated for jobs which require great communication skills, so far interviewers never said something negative about my English. And I am very close to get a job, although it has been less than a month I have been here.

Try :

a headhunter or
a specialised agency

dont :
send your cv to every agency or the HR of companies which have 18 years old teens looking at your CV...

one more impressive example:
I had applied to a position firstly by agency's ad, when I didnt hear anything I somehow found the specific department of the company where the position was open and next day I was invited for interview. So, try to skip agencies as well if you can find the employer.

[FromThere2Here]

Rio,

As an American (now British-American dual citizen) who has lived in the UK for five years, I sympathize with your situation.

To be perfectly honest, you're going to have a more difficult time finding a job here. First, age discrimination is perfectly legal in the UK (though this will end in October because of a new EU rule). Second, business here is done much more on a "who you know" basis. Third -- and most important -- the UK economy just doesn't create as many jobs.

That said... don't get discouraged! Finding a job is difficult anywhere. Don't get discouraged by what you hear from unreliable sources like JobCentre employees. (Can you imagine what type of people work there?)

My advice would be:

-- Follow the advice Kumi gave you. Very smart.

-- Turn what you perceive as your disadvantages to your advantages. The fact that you've worked in another country gives you a different perspective that would be valuable to your next employer.

-- Make sure your CV gives plenty of examples that show your high level of energy and the fact that you are diplomatic and get along with people. This will help offset concerns about your age and your being an ugly American.

-- Network by joining ex-pat groups in your area, as well as ex-pat forums on the web.

-- Most of all, stop listening to people who tell you you won't find a job because you're an American or you're 47. Sure, some companies will cross you off their list because of these reasons, but would you really want to work for that type of company? Think about the unique strengths you would bring to a company -- including your experience (age) and diversity of knowlege (US citizen) -- and build up your confidence by spending a few minutes each day reminding yourself of these abilities.

[giblet]

Gulgon,

What agency did you go through? I'd love to talk to you, as I'm also looking for a position in online marketing as well. Do you have any other suggestions about finding a job in this field in the UK? Feel free to PM me.