5 years for ILR rule implemented

[supertiger]

I am happy for either or both they can be concurrent... also worth checking the ad cost if we require more than once, we may need 3 times or so on paper if we decide to do so...

[timefactor]

i don't mind contributing £100ish (also need to set aside funds for further legal costs)

[Hidden dragon]

Great! See? We have got 2 already. 38 to go....

You might know this forum already but I paste it here anyway. Could people from other nations post the addresses of their forums here too?
Especially those who are from America, Africa, Asia, Europe and Oceania?
http://www.greattrek.co.uk/showthread.p ... ge=4&pp=10

Some numbers and the source are copied below to show the potential. (Numbers subject to further check!)

[[[[ ---- number of permit holders since 2002----- ]]]]

Work permit holders, excluding EEA nationals and Switzerland (employment for 12 months or more)

2002- 51525 (All nationalities) / 5000 (Europe) / 8875 (Indian sub-continent) / 13825 (Other Asia) / 11100 (Americas) / 7255 (Africa) / 5360 (Oceania) / 105 (Other nationalities)

2003- 44480 (All nationalities) / 7675 (Europe) / 8185 (Indian sub-continent) / 11245 (Other Asia) / 8415 (Americas) / 5275 (Africa) / 3620 (Oceania) / 70 (Other nationalities)

2004- 42235 (All nationalities) / 6190 (Europe) / 13155 (Indian sub-continent) / 8935 (Other Asia) / 6755 (Americas) / 4385 (Africa) / 2780 (Oceania) / 40 (Other nationalities)

_____________________________________________
The statistics were provided by 'nonothing' on http://lkcn.net/eubbs/index.php?showtopic=102162&st=330. The source is http://www.official-documents.co.uk/doc ... 0/6690.pdf. I checked it agains Table 4.2, seems to be in the right order, but would welcome more comments.

[Hidden dragon]

Great! Only 37 more to go now...

Attention:
----------Supertiger--------------
----------Timefactor--------------
----------Rooi_ding----------------

Can we meet this Easter Holiday? After that, we will get busy on work again.

Trying to organise a small meeting. Check my latest post on: http://lkcn.net/eubbs/index.php?showtop ... ntry882074.

Drop me an email if u r up for it. I need to go home and eat something, but will check email before going to bed. A long day....

Cheers, I really need to go now. I might disapper for a while tomorrow, but shall come back after 8pm....

Sean

[supertiger]

I will fly back home tmr so cannot physically meet in easter but i will check the discussion boards frequently. I will also try to seek support from Brits working out of uk they may have a better wider view on this... as for the protest, I wasn;t keen at all at the beginning but there are only limited activists in this forum and online petiotion only hundreds of names so now maybe the time to organise one it is a way to extract media's attention and more importantly to get all nationalities involved. but of course i understand not very easy to get thousands of people walk from trafalfar sq to parliament... where do u need to appy for license?

[morerightsformigrants]

here is something interesting

QUOTE (joseph.DJ@558.net @ 12 Apr 2006, 21:16)
Just a few random toughts in response to zsz & other's comments.

1. I think most people involved agree the main goal should be to repeal the retrospective ascpect of the new rules.

2. The parliment is in recess right now, that is why you won't hear much from HO Minister for about 2-3 weeks. I would be a good time to write to MP though, so it will be more drmatic for him when he get back and see a large postbag on this issue.

3. The Minister has already agreed to meet christne lee when he come back from holiday, it is very important for people to get the petitions signed and return to her before the meeting (Likely to be early May)

4. Christine is holding a meeting with the British Born Chinese in Late April to explain how they can get in to the political system. I think she would be happy to see China Born Chinese at the meeting too. The Government has stated that they will consult the Chinese community more extensively on future issues, and is now inviting people to put there name forwards. Chrisine will help you to get in touch if you are not familiar with the process.

5. The legal process must be left as the last resort, becoz we are talking about cost to the region of hundreds of thousands if not millions. It can also take a long time before you can heard a verdit. by all means be prepared for it but it should not be the main focus right now. There will be plenty time to work on the legal case after you have exhausted the political process. i would suggest you guys focus on the lobbying. Remember you can only start the court case after HO reject an PR application, NOT BEFORE.

6. I would also suggest a focus on MP letters rather than street protests because once you go down that route, you will open the floodgate for other political groups to hijack the event. You can't really stop the more extreme elements taking part in your demo, afterall it is a public place. Right now, it is still not very politically damaging for the government if they retract on the new rules, but once it gets ugly and become frontpage news, the government is back to a corner and it will make the lobbying process a lot harder.

good luck wink.gif

i would like to point out that we should challenge the NO NEED OF CONSULTATION POLICY on this issue as well just because HO believes there's no need to......

p.s. i would be quite happy to contribute financially for the ad.



本文章由 morerightsformigrants于 12 Apr 2006, 22:15 重新编辑过

[nonothing]

Could anybody who can either (1) pay up to £100 for the Guadian Announcement idea or (2) go for demonstration drop an email to me at x_z_sean@yahoo.co.uk, or just spell it out here?

i'm happy with the financial contribution.

[morerightsformigrants]

eh guys i am trying to open a new forum in the guardian unlimited. i have subscribed but they are having problems validating my e-mail can anyone else try to subscribe and then open a new forum there and see if we can attract more people to support us.

i think there are still a lot of people out there that don't know about this new law and this campaign.

[nonothing]

i tried several times to open a topic on BBC's "Have your say". but never got permitted.

[supertiger]

I tried the BBC Have yr say and entered my comments it was sent and the message says "Your comment will shortly be read by the Have Your Say team. If it is selected for publication it would normally appear on the site within the next few hours.

Please remember that your name will be published alongside your comment.

All our pages are permanently searchable by most standard search engines. Your comments may be published on any BBC media.

Due to the high volume of emails received by the BBC we cannot guarantee that your comments will be published.

If you are sending an idea for a story, we will read all the suggestions we receive and pick a selection to follow up online and on other BBC outlets."

will check tmr morning to see whether published, you can try too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/2804227.stm

[Globetrotter]

i don't mind contributing £100ish (also need to set aside funds for further legal costs)

Ditto (I second that)

GT

[Hidden dragon]

A quick update:

We have got 5 people who would contribute to the AD action:

nonothing
supertiger
morerightsformigrants
Globetrotter
and me.

--------- n e e d m o r e --------------

Please refer to page 32 post by hidden dragon at Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:35 pm for details of the idea.

I agree with Globetrotter's analysis. I think lobbying plus media attention would support court action as the last resort, and court action makes the lobbying more substaintial and carry more weight. We need all three element. I do agree that we need to be cautious about demonstration, although I still believe it is a good way of attracting media attention!

[nonothing]

i got the same thing, but nothing more.

I tried the BBC Have yr say and entered my comments it was sent and the message says "Your comment will shortly be read by the Have Your Say team. If it is selected for publication it would normally appear on the site within the next few hours.

Please remember that your name will be published alongside your comment.

All our pages are permanently searchable by most standard search engines. Your comments may be published on any BBC media.

Due to the high volume of emails received by the BBC we cannot guarantee that your comments will be published.

If you are sending an idea for a story, we will read all the suggestions we receive and pick a selection to follow up online and on other BBC outlets."

will check tmr morning to see whether published, you can try too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/2804227.stm

[trafficboy]

I am also happy to a financial contribution.

[Hidden dragon]

A quick update:

We have got 6 people who would contribute to the AD action:

nonothing
supertiger
morerightsformigrants
Globetrotter
Trafficboy
and me.

--------- need 34 more--------------

Please refer to page 32 post by hidden dragon at Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:35 pm for details of the idea.

Could people kindly copy his suggestions to other forums to get more people interested?

[morerightsformigrants]

got this from another forum

as you know, the law has been passed, it is now up to the policy team at Home Office to do the small prints.

Christine Lee, the solicitor, who successfully lobbyed againist some of the original unfair clauses in the bill, hold regualr meeting with Home office to monitor the progress of the new law.

Here is her report on the recent meeting. (See Chinese report from SingTao THU13/04/2006)

=============================================
On 10th April we had a meeting with the Policy Team of the Home Office on the Point based System, they were two officers from Croydon and two from Sheffield. There is very little advance from what we knew already. I have a feeling the Home Office is just playing their cards very close to their chests. However one thing did come out very strong and that is they will be drafting their new rules (point system) very much in line with their published policy. Nothing much we say is going to make a difference. Their words are this is published policy back in July 2005.



We were invited to give our views on the specific impact and difficulties of the new system to the Chinese and Asian catering businesses. But in return they told us nothing new. One thing came out unmistakable is that the HO’s concern is only how to control incoming workers. They have not thought about the impact on the local British businesses. It is all about controlling migrants in and the ways to settlement. We came out of the meeting feeling absolutely deflated in that what we have campaigned for and all the reasons and difficulties raised in Parliament and with the Politicians have either not filtered down to the Policy team or deliberately ignored.



However the main points of the meeting are



1 We raised the issue of the 4 to 5 year settlement change of rule. This is not what the meeting was about but they commented that this is pretty much what the government is going to do and nothing much we can do about it. We shall see how we get on with the Politicians gain.

2 Regarding the point based system. For the “enterprise” (their term, not mine) categories, i.e. Investors, Business Investment, Retired Person of Independent Means, the HO says they have no rules set out yet. I tried to push them to give us a clue, but absolutely nothing. I raised the issue of current clients from Shanghai (who is contemplating applying) concern about the change to the new system probably at the time of the extension application (2 +3). I asked for comfort from the Policy team that whatever they draft they should recognise that those came in already should automatically covert to enough points under the new system. But nothing. The best I could get out of them is they will have to look at it and cannot commit.

3 I also raised issue why they are tempering with non-working categories, e.g. retired person. Also trying to have one system to fit all with such diverse criteria is madness. Also the new system looks inflexible and no discretion allowed. The response is that this is the Home Office’s policies as set out in the consultation documents in July 2005.

4 We then went onto the most problematic issue for our meeting. It appears the knowledge of English is going to be applied stringently and a absolute pre requisite to all Tier 1 and 2 applicants. We have had meeting after meeting with Ministers and were pacified to say it will be alright. We spent best part of an hour arguing to our faces became blue why English requirement would kill all applications for investors or chefs from China. The most ridiculous line I got from them was “if the chef wants to come they should go and learn English”! They insist that to work in the UK the migrant must have a minimum standard of English. It is meant to help integration. The best I could achieve was for them to look at the level of the English requirement. We felt it is not genuine. We are going back to the Politicians on this point.

5 We didn’t really have time to discuss Tier 3, except that the Asian business are more concerned than the Chinese and the HO team will talk separately with the Asian community. The non settlement route is not useful to the Chinese community in the UK, not many Chinese workers will come if no settlement.

6 We had to leave Tier 4 & 5 to a future meeting.



Whatever the politicians told us before we have to start all over again. We are running the same arguments and scenarios with the Policy team. Our battle goes on……….





Regards,



Christine Lee & Co.

Please see the latest update of Christine's meeting with the Policy team at the Home Office here:

http://lkcn.net/eubbs/index.php?act=ST& ... ntry882636

Although the signs are not very encouraging, it is to be expected becoz these guys are only civil servants, and they tend to play it very safe in fear of making any promises they cannot keep. (Coz only politician can make the final decisions)

Really have to wait till Chistine meet the minister when he come back from holiday before we have a real indication whether the lobbying is gonna be successful.


=================================

本文章由 joseph.DJ@558.net于 13 Apr 2006, 10:33 重新编辑过

[sowhat]

A quick update:

We have got 6 people who would contribute to the AD action:

nonothing
supertiger
morerightsformigrants
Globetrotter
Trafficboy
and me.

--------- need 34 more--------------

Please refer to page 32 post by hidden dragon at Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:35 pm for details of the idea.

Could people kindly copy his suggestions to other forums to get more people interested?

personally I do not think that appealing to the public will do us any good. my understanding that ordinary people are at least mildly averse to immigration in general. They actually do not make any difference between people who came here on WP and HSMP and asylum seekers. Former are up to their jobs, later - for their money. So I do not think that any public appeal will do us any good.

Some businesses may suffer from new rules as they will have to pay for the extensions for their employees. I do not think that many of them are concerned that new rules will damage in any way the attractiveness of the UK for skilled workers.

Politicians are the only group which may be interested to help or play it in their own interests. At least you may try to convince them that some of the rules are unfair. So lobbying is the best way to do something about it.

Also I doubt if many of those whose life was affected by new rules are up to fight, frankly speaking. In my case for example if I do not have ILR before September 1st, it really does not matter to me (unless they change it again next spring).

So I would suggest to put all our efforts to lobbying: letters to MPs trying to persuade them that the retrospectiveness/retroactiveness is unfair.

Just my sixpence...

[rg1]

The UK media is pro-british, so they don't really bother about immigrants' plight!

However, you people are really good fighters. I'm with you. At least we must our best to prevent the retrospective rule implementation.

[rooi_ding]

The point is not to appeal to the British public, you are absolutely right they probably would not be that affected. But the point is to let every HSMP, Work permit holder and AV know what is going on. I met someone last night who could have made the cut of day, but now has to wait. The more people we let know the more people will lobby their MP's...........

[Rohan]

sowahat wrote
Quote

personally I do not think that appealing to the public will do us any good. my understanding that ordinary people are at least mildly averse to immigration in general. They actually do not make any difference between people who came here on WP and HSMP and asylum seekers. Former are up to their jobs, later - for their money. So I do not think that any public appeal will do us any good.

Some businesses may suffer from new rules as they will have to pay for the extensions for their employees. I do not think that many of them are concerned that new rules will damage in any way the attractiveness of the UK for skilled workers.


Politicians are the only group which may be interested to help or play it in their own interests. At least you may try to convince them that some of the rules are unfair. So lobbying is the best way to do something about it.

Also I doubt if many of those whose life was affected by new rules are up to fight, frankly speaking. In my case for example if I do not have ILR before September 1st, it really does not matter to me (unless they change it again next spring).

So I would suggest to put all our efforts to lobbying: letters to MPs trying to persuade them that the retrospectiveness/retroactiveness is unfair.
unqte

I totally agree with the above and that is reality.

[Hidden dragon]

sowahat wrote
Quote

personally I do not think that appealing to the public will do us any good. my understanding that ordinary people are at least mildly averse to immigration in general. They actually do not make any difference between people who came here on WP and HSMP and asylum seekers. Former are up to their jobs, later - for their money. So I do not think that any public appeal will do us any good.

Some businesses may suffer from new rules as they will have to pay for the extensions for their employees. I do not think that many of them are concerned that new rules will damage in any way the attractiveness of the UK for skilled workers.


Politicians are the only group which may be interested to help or play it in their own interests. At least you may try to convince them that some of the rules are unfair. So lobbying is the best way to do something about it.

Also I doubt if many of those whose life was affected by new rules are up to fight, frankly speaking. In my case for example if I do not have ILR before September 1st, it really does not matter to me (unless they change it again next spring).

So I would suggest to put all our efforts to lobbying: letters to MPs trying to persuade them that the retrospectiveness/retroactiveness is unfair.
unqte

I totally agree with the above and that is reality.

Sowhat and Rohan,

To achieve our common goal, I think we need all three elements: lobbying+ media/public attention + court action (as the last resort).

Media/public attention will serve the following purposes:
(1) To make politicians know they are dealing with a matter that matters to many people and many people pay attention to its development.
(2) To gather our strength. As pointed out by many, many people don't even know this bad news yet.
(3) To keep our moral high, make it hopeful.
(4) Support and make the case, so as to prepare for the potential court action.

I THINK WE CANNOT LOBBY SUCCESSFULLY IF FEW PEOPLE KNOW WHAT WE ARE LOBBYING FOR!

I agree that at this stage lobbying is perhaps the most important thing. But it doesn't mean we cannot do anything else. The three elements will create a synergetic effect. However, this does requires careful planning and coordination.

That is why I stress the importance of having a strategy. Personally I think our campaign shall have 3 stages:

[Stage 1-current stage] - "More Carrots less Sticks!"
(1) Concentrate on lobbying, and the EDM approach
(2) Meanwhile create bigger media attention, with the purpose of sending out the message, spreading the words and increase awareness of the problem among the politicians (for EDM).
(3) Prepare for court action, but not to make a too big noise at this stage. Just to spread the words that "we are considering legal actions as well". Without the possibility of having a court action, lobbying becomes weak and hollow. This is more for strategic reasons. A bit like strategic nuclear toys, nobody would use it, but once you have the capability, you got to declare the ownership of it ASAP. It can also be explained using the Game Theory. If you declare it too late, then there is no need to declare it.

[Stage 2 - if lobbying is not effective] - “More Sticks Less Carrots"
(1) Action for bigger media attention
(2) Democratic approach including demonstrations
(3) Make a huge noise on court action.
(4) Continue to lobby.

[Stage 3 - if still no positive change] - Sticks
(1) Concentrate on court action!

So I think at this stage, we need all three elements. We don't need to argue which is the best, cos they are not exclusive. While trying to get more media and public attention, people like me will still support lobbying.

Finally, I agree the public perception is completely wrong. Without people like us, the economy of this country will halt! You may say it is reality, but I think it is up to us to change the perception. We are part of the 'reality' too. If you we keep silent, we accept and strengthen the wrong perception and in the end we suffer.

And what is happening to us now is a result of us allowing people to have the wrong perception in the past! We got to change!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blood hell, life is too short. Just stand out and spell out what we think is RIGHT!

Where there is a will, there MIGHT be a way!

Where there is NO will, there is NO way!

[nonothing]

this is from the chinese forum lkcn.net
http://lkcn.net/eubbs/index.php?showtopic=102162&st=345

Are you guys meeting this weekend as proposed by zsz(Hidden dragon)? I have talked to Christine Lee's team, one of the lawyer has agreed to join the meeting and answer all your questions if you are interested. She is on the campaign team, and will be providing the service voluntary. There will be no charge. Pls let me know your plans

that's great! well done joseph.

i'd suggest even if we couldn't manage a face to face meeting, we should defo arrange a Cyber-chat over the holiday period, maybe over either msn or some bbs(lkcn or immigrationboards?). otherwsie we might just miss a good time window.

i would be quite happy to be able to talk to one of Ms Lee lawyer because i missed the meeting the last time due to work commitments i work in the catering business so as you know is really difficult to get a saturday off, but i am off this sunday. anyone else interested in a meeting...? i can drive to london that' s not a problem for me....

please contact me asap and thank you joseph for all your help and support....

not sure if I can get the lawyer to join a cyber chat. She is happy to travel to chinatown on Sunday, if you guys can organise yourself before sat afternoon. just let me know

To facilitate this, I propose a meeting in Hotel Hampshire, Leicester Square, near Chinatown at 12pm this Sunday 16th April.

sincerely hope the london meeting can be realized and successful. i believe we can manage to gather a few people, coz lots of our guys are based in the south. unfortunately i'm up in the north and stuck in some peosonal stuff, although i'll definitely try my best to support.

Great Joseph!
I will come. I will see if Rooi could join us.
We can call nonothing to have his input during the meeting.
I will see you guys there if no changes.
Sean

Could people to attend the meeting add their names to this list please

__________
Zsz
Joseph(TBC)
morerightsformigrants(TBC)

I'll be there. See you then.

I just have a note from work that I will have to work till 1ish. Can we make the meeting at 2pm? if you guys can confirm here, I will confrim with the lady from Christine Lee.

So can we confirm 2pm at hotel hampshire? here is the address:

Radisson Edwardian Hampshire Hotel

31-36 LEICESTER SQUARE
(opposite to Half Price Theatre Ticket Booth)
LONDON, WC2H 7LH
44-20-78399399

SUNDAY 16th APR 2006 - 14:00PM

nearest underground station - Leicester Square (northern line) Piccadilly Circus (Piccadilly Line)

--- as i m not directly affected, it is best you guys come up with an agenda.

--- I have already PM my mobile to you guys, please leave me voice mail if i don't pick up as i might be in studio.

--- Christine Lee has already agree to assist anyone affected by the 4-5 change of rules FREE OF CHARGE, so feel free to raise any personal issues with her colleague on sunday, or alternatively call 0208 200 8288 for a private consultation

[Hidden dragon]

Proposed place: TBC, London
Proposed time: 12 noon 16th Sunday

It will be an opportunity for us to meet up and personally I want to meet Christine Lee's team so that we can move towards developing a more coherent strategy.

There are now about 4 people including me and Christine Lee's team member (don't know exactly who yet) to attend the meeting.

Sorry to know that supertiger will miss the meeting, but hope you can bring 'overseas' force back.

[supertiger]

I think Christine's lobby always has a wider mission to uproot the point based system and the focus is always on the catering industry. I wonder if she can revised strategy a little bit if she really has interests in the ILR 4-5 instead of all HO policies. I understand she has other clients but our aim is only the exempt the previous visa holders... - sorry i have to be skeptical from all her meeting minutes...

Hope yr meeting go on well, pity am not in uk but will meet u here.

[Eugene_UK]

I completely agree with supertiger that catering and other issues but not ILR 4-5 were the priority. I think we need more ILR 4-5 focused campain or UK law firm who will be focused on this.