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Elderly Parent Settlement Visa Appeal Still No! £400Hearing

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hopefloats
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:09 pm

Elderly Parent Settlement Visa Appeal Still No! £400Hearing

Post by hopefloats » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:33 pm

Hi there.

I'm devistated and don't actually know where to start with explaining, but will try....

* I was born in London, grew up in South Africa (I am a British citizen); my Mum was born in South Africa, and lived in England until she was about 15 years old.

* My Mum is now 79 years old, living in South Africa; I have been back in England for the past 11 years.

* My Mum was reliant on my brother financially (they lived within five minutes drive of each other), but his business went down and he's in around £40 000 of debt.

* My brother and his partner moved my mum out of her accomodation when they had to move because they couldn't afford their rent - they moved her out because of (1) affording the rent and (2) they moved around 45 drive minutes away and we were all concerned for my mum's safety.

* They now live in a tiny one bedroom flat (my mum is sleeping on the sofa and has no space of her own) - since March this year. We all assumed it would be temporary as we were sure she would be granted a settlement visa and felt that she was in the safest place for the moment until her visa came through and she could move here.

* My sister (born in South Africa but British by marriage and has lived here in England for 14+ years) owns several properties, and her income comes from renting them out. She is our mum's sponsor on the application since it is she who is financially able to support our mum.

* We provided everything they asked for, paid the (£700 ! ) fee, and waited. It was refused because they said there was insufficient proof my brother couldn't support our mother there, and there were no tenancy agreements included in the application (they hadn't asked for these before).

* So, we put in an appeal - with the tenancy agreements, plus an affidavit from my brother along with his bank statements and bills, a letter from a solicitor confirming his financial situation and a letter from my sister...

We've just received the notice saying they've still refused it - on the grounds that:

"These documents are not relevant in showing that the appelant has now addressed the ECO's concerns.

Whilst the appelant has demonstrated that her son in South Africa is experiencing financial difficulties, she has not demonstrated that she is wholly or mainly financially dependant on her sponsor in the UK. In fact in a letter submitted with the grounds of appeal the sponsor states that her brother in South Africa has been the main "financial supporter" of the appellant. The sponsor makes reference to some payments made from her to the appelant via her sister in the UK, but these do not consitute financial dependency on the part of the appelant. It is significant that the appelant's sponsor has not been providing regular financial support despite her brother's financial difficulties, which appear to have been ongoing for a while. Furthermore, no evidence has been provided to show that the appelant is dependant on the sponsor in ways other than financial. (My sister explained in her letter that my brother has BEEN the main financial supporter for our mum, but of course, since his business went under and he's now in all that debt, he's unable to support her any longer. My sister has given me money to send to our Mum via Moneygram and we've sent money over with friends whenever there's anyone going over - she said this in the letter, I don't know why they haven't seemed to grasp it? :(

"Paragraph 317(e) states that we can consider any compelling and compassionate grounds if the applicant is under 65 (Does anyone know why this is please? Surely the older a parent the more important it is they're with their family and the more "compassionate" the grounds??) and living alone. The appelant is over 65 and lives with her son. I also note that there appears to be no explicit provision for divorced parents over 65 under paragraph 317. However I have considered if there are any exceptional compassionate circumstances in this case. No reason has been put forward for why the appelant's sponsor could not provide financial support to the appelant in South Africa. (Again, my sister explained in her letter that it's dangerous in South Africa for our mum to live there on her own!)

"I acknowledge that the appelant has provided evidence of her sponsor's properties in the UK. The sponsor states in a letter submitted with the grounds of the appeal that she reinvests much of her money and that is why she is often overdrawn. However the fact that she is often overdrawn coupled with the lack of financial support for the appelant leads me to doubt that adequeate funds would be available to maintain the appelant in the UK without recourse to public funds. (As my sister pointed out in her letter, in order to qualify for any kind of public funds, she'd need to sell all her properties and spend all the proceeds! She has 11 properites! The going overdrawn was just for a period of time after her partner was killed in an accident earlier this year and the properties were being managed by him before he died. So cashflow was sticky for a while. Also as she said she tends to reinvest money - but she would obviously not reinvest money that is needed to support our monther!! :?

"Given all of the above I maintiain the decision to refuse entry clearance."

I'm feeling really frustrated and would so appreciate any advice or suggestions. I'm so, so worried about my mum. She's living under very difficult conditions. My brother's partner is driving her crazy and she has nowhere to go - not even a room to be alone in. She goes and sits in her car just to get some alone time. It's extremely dangerous in Johannesburg.
Although she's 79 years old, she's fit and healthy - no medical problems at all.

There's an immigration solicitor here in Gloucester who will do the hearing for us for £400. But I was wondering if anyone here could advise what our chances are of winning?

The main points are:
1. My brother is in £40 000+ of debt (and we included the documentation to prove that - affidavit and lawyer's letter etc.)

2. Their concern that there would be any recourse to public funds seems absurd considering my sister has all those properties, surely that must be a good point - she can't possibly access public funds if she owns that amount of property?

3. South Africa is a dangerous place for most people, it's certainly too dangerous for a 79 year old woman living on her own.

Is there any chance these points would be considered as grounds to overturn the decision in an appeal hearing?

Do we try and do the hearing thing? Or the other option is - although her mother was born in South Africa, her grandfather was English and her grandmother was French. On her father's side, her father was Italian but gave up his Italian passport for a South African one when he moved there.

Is it worth trying for Ancestry and how do we find the information we need for that if that's the way to go please?

Thanks v much in advance.

NT1234
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Location: LONDON

Post by NT1234 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:06 am

it’s a very tricky one for you – the issue you are having and clearly stated in the refusal letter is showing your mum is wholly and mainly financially dependent upon your sister who is sponsoring her. Unfortunately you need t prove this has been the case for a period of time and not one for the future or now. This does not mean that she cannot win the appeal – based on the information you provided its almost likely she would have been turn down at the application stage as she does not meet this criteria but I think at the appeal if you can gather enough evidence to support your application she will now be financially dependent upon you then you are much more likely to succeed.

Its absolute crucial to prove dependency upon the UK relatives – not in the future or present but also past. And this is the main problem you are having. It also seems you stated your brother in SA has been her main support which is the case and you were honest in saying this – but you also have to prove she is now mainly financially dependent upon your sister here due to her brother’s inability to support her.

What I also noticed the immigration officer does seem to believe that your brother situation has been ongoing for a while but yet you have not shown enough prove that you and your sister have taken over her financial support. This weakens your application form and I understand this has been met with the way funds are transmitted to her in SA. You said your sister has given you money to send for her monthly – did you provide evidence of this? How long has he been in this financial situation? And how long have you started to send her regular funds?

Sending money with friends and family will be hard to prove – and one where you will be at the disadvantaged. You have to remember that the burden of prove is with your mum and so you guys will have to show evidence of this regular transfer to her regardless of whatever means you go by doing so. Unfortunately it’s harder for you due to the way the funds transmitted.

Your question - All Para 317 is saying that if your mum was under 65 then they will consider any compassionate grounds which is not the case for you as your mum is over 65. Therefore you do not have to prove a case for compassionate grounds – what you will need to prove is the criteria of para 317 of the immigration rules and where you are falling short is the financial support to you mum over recent times.

Just to let you know that the immigration officer has to be satisfied that your mum can be maintained here in the UK without any recourse to public funds. Insufficient funds on the path of the sponsor do not help – has your sister got any savings of her own? It may be useful she provide some evidence of this if she has. Yes she has properties and quite a few as well but being in constant overdrawn may question her ability to support your mum. If it is quite recent she has been going overdrawn then for the appeal she will need to provide evidence to the court to support this – especially the fact she had lost her husband over recent times and this could be the case. Having said this it’s absolutely crucial to prove she is financially stable here in the UK. What you may not know once your mum is given the settlement visa then nothing can stop her after a period of time in the UK from claiming benefits - no recourse to public funds is not stamped in her passport meaning that she is entitled to claim this and to reduce this from happening the officer has to be satisfied she can be taken care of he sponsor.

Your 1st question – yes this may be useful and the judge will look at this for the appeal.
2nd question – as mentioned above there is nothing to stop her from claiming public funds so her sponsor has to show financial stability
3rd question – again something that the judge may look at for the appeal – its not one of the rules or criteria to meet so would not assist in the application stage but can for the appeal.

Your application has failed to satisfy key criteria so I would say it’s going to the court and you will be given the chance to explain to the judge in more detail the situation concerning your mum. From my knowledge It’s going to be hard to overturn but don’t be put off from this, you have a much better chance in the court. As for the ancestry visa someone may be able to comment on this as I don’t know much on this.

My advice to you to seek the advice from an immigration solicitor – you’ve stated you have one, make sure it’s a competent one as its going to require expertise from him to win the appeal. The only rules where they allow some level of leniency is the age criteria under compassionate grounds but your mum is over 65. However I believe even if a person was not financially dependent upon you in the past but they have been now for unforeseen reason the judge will take this into account (though much harder for the immigration officer to as he is going by all the rules). So keep trying and seeking advice on your case – don’t give up, this forum is useful to a large extent to do so and go through the appeal addressing the main concern of the immigration official and that’s the financial dependency and her sponsor lack of funds.

good luck - i will pray for your success.

hopefloats
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Post by hopefloats » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:38 pm

Hi NT1234

Thank you SO much for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply - I really appreciate it! I have been sending £100 to her each month through MoneyGram (I have the receipts) on behalf of my sister, since July. The solicitor said we could get an affirmation from anyone who took money over to her for us, along with a copy of their passport. So I'm hoping that would also help, and also she was here for Christmas (she went back on the 1st January, and we gave her money to take back with her. Do you think this will be okay?

Thanks so much again for your help :)

hmm
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:49 pm

Post by hmm » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:27 pm

hopefloats wrote:Hi NT1234

I have been sending £100 to her each month through MoneyGram (I have the receipts) on behalf of my sister, since July. The solicitor said we could get an affirmation from anyone who took money over to her for us, along with a copy of their passport. So I'm hoping that would also help, and also she was here for Christmas (she went back on the 1st January, and we gave her money to take back with her. Do you think this will be okay?
You need to write a letter explaining that your sister gave you the money to send to your mum. If you and your sister have bank statement showing the money transfer from your sister to you include them with theletter. It is also important that your sister mention this in her letter/witness statement. As your sister is the main sponsor it is important to show it is her your mum is mainly financially depends on.

Good idea to take a letter and the passport copies of the person who took the money over to your mum. Take the person to the hearing as a witness so that he/she can answer any questions that judge might ask.

If all this was cash transation then include your sister's bank statement showing the amount of money was withdrawn to sendto SA.

hopefloats
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:09 pm

Post by hopefloats » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:39 pm

Hi hmm :)

Thank you so much! Some great points of advice there and I'll definitely follow them.

avjones
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Post by avjones » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:36 am

Just to check - what about your father? Is your mother a widow?
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

hopefloats
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Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:09 pm

Post by hopefloats » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:20 am

Hi Amanda :)

My mother and father are divorced (have been for about 35 years now) and he lives in America (he's also remarried). My mum never remarried.

avjones
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Post by avjones » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:03 am

Then you have a more fundamental problem. Your mother isn't a widow. Paragraph 317(i)(a) applies to mothers or grandmothers who are over the age of 65, who are widows. Not divorced mothers or grandmothers.

Your mother doesn't qualify under 317(i)(d) as she's not remarried.

So she'd have to meet the 317(e) test, "parent or grandparent under the age of 65 if living alone outside the United Kingdom in the most exceptional compassionate circumstances and mainly dependent financially on relatives settled in the United Kingdom"

You need to talk to the solicitor about this ASAP.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

hopefloats
Newly Registered
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:09 pm

Post by hopefloats » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:54 pm

Ah, okay, thanks for the heads-up Amanda - much appreciated!

Do you have any idea why this is? I mean why a person can be divorced and still considered only if they're under 65, but if they're over 65 they won't be considered if they're divorced? I don't get the logic of it?

Thanks again.

avjones
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Location: London
United Kingdom

Post by avjones » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:33 pm

I don't think there is any logic, it's just that it's in the rules. Paragraph 317 (i) (a) only refers to widows, not divorced / separated women.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

vito0514
Junior Member
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Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:45 pm

Post by vito0514 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:27 pm


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