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Isn't this discrimination?

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touchsensor
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Isn't this discrimination?

Post by touchsensor » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:47 am

This job is unlikely to attract a work permit. Applications from candidates who require a permit to work in the UK may not be considered if there are a sufficient number of other suitable candidates.

Isn't this discrimination?

stedman
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Post by stedman » Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:06 am

No it isn't.

Rogerio
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Post by Rogerio » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:51 am

It isn't... this is taking "discrimination" to a ridiculous level. If there are no local/EU canditates who can fill the vacancy, then it's level playing field for everyone else.

I'd be very interested to learn of countries where a similar concept is not applied.... I dont think the list will be long.

touchsensor
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Post by touchsensor » Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:39 am

I don't mean to be rude but just because many countries in the world practice this kind of policy does it justify it?
This has been suggested as a topic of debate.

olisun
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Post by olisun » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:36 am

touchsensor wrote:I don't mean to be rude but just because many countries in the world practice this kind of policy does it justify it?
This has been suggested as a topic of debate.
so you are saying that there should be free movement for everybody so that they can go and work in any country?

shreem
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Post by shreem » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:49 am

This job is unlikely to attract a work permit. Applications from candidates who require a permit to work in the UK may not be considered if there are a sufficient number of other suitable candidates.
Certainly discriminatory, but given the legitimacy of the immigration rules, it is considered fair.

In the recent NHS fiasco about workpermits for training doctors, there is one blatant discriminatory interpretation of the rule:

Even if someone doesnt need a workpermit (for eg, HSMP, or dependent of another migrant etc), when considering for the post, the length of validity of relevant visa is of prime importance. If the post you are applying for is say for four years, and your current HSMP or other visa is less then that, you are considered in practical terms, to need a workpermit and the resident worker rule applies.

I personally find this riduculous. Can someone tell me, when a non-UK but EEA national is allowed into the UK, what sort of leave to remain is given to these individuals? Do they get to stay here without any time limit or do they have a time limit placed. If a time limit is placed, should'nt their LTR influence the interepretation of the resident worker clause?

aboudi
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Post by aboudi » Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:29 am

EEA nationals dont need a leave to remain, they can live here as long as they want if they want to work...

John
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Post by John » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:33 pm

they can live here as long as they want if they want to work...
Or be a student, retire, etc etc.
John

touchsensor
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Post by touchsensor » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:20 pm

Well my main argument was that is it legit to say that if we can't find someone appropriate in the whole of EU/EEA, then only we will consider the rest of the world?I mean I know EU has an open policy but wouldn't it deter the 'OTHERS' from applying for the post? And maybe lose employing someone of higher calibre?

shreem
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Post by shreem » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:44 pm

Thanks aboudi and John. I checked about this as well and clearly they have a right to work.

But what about the HSMP individuals not considered to have a right to work if the job is question is longer than their LTR?

I'm fairly sure that HSMP approved individuals using this forum would have been offered jobs longer than their LTR, in employments outside NHS.

If they can confirm, I see that there is a legal case for doctors with HSMP to refer to and revoke this rubbish interpretation.

John
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Post by John » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:02 pm

But what about the HSMP individuals not considered to have a right to work if the job is question is longer than their LTR?
Not sure I am understanding the point? Are you saying that some posts are fixed term and if the person does not have LTR of that length they are not getting appointed?
John

touchsensor
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Post by touchsensor » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:07 pm

Yes John that's the case. I have attended interview and they did ask me what happens after x amount of years? They say they are looking for someone who can stay longer.

John
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Post by John » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:31 pm

I can see your concern. Isn't it a case of saying that extensions to HSMP are really just a formality if the person is economically active? Would an NHS Trust not be prepared to take that point on board?

After all, why did the Government introduce HSMP at all? To give a route to highly qualified people to work in the UK without needing a WP. If NHS Trusts are ignorant about the way an HSMP extension is easy to achieve for someone who is working, then surely some education of NHS Trusts needed.

And the point is the NHS Trusts also need to be aware that taking on a HSMP person relieves them of the cost of getting anyone a WP.
John

shreem
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Post by shreem » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:36 pm

John,
Not sure I am understanding the point? Are you saying that some posts are fixed term and if the person does not have LTR of that length they are not getting appointed
Precisely!

As of today, following HSMP approval, an individual gets 2 year LTR, followed by 3 years after showing suitable economic activity.

With regards to doctors training programmes in the NHS, the popular schemes are the GP training scheme, which is fixed term-3 years and the specialist registrar training scheme, which is fixed term-5 years.

Therefore a HSMP LTR holder will never be considered for the two programmes and will still have to come under workpermit regulations, despite holding a so called "right to work"

The same holds true for a dependent status holder who has a LTR duration which is less than the duration of the job in question.

The guidance for the above can be found at:

http://www.nhsemployers.org/workforce/w ... uestion513

I draw your attention to the statement in bold quoted from the above:
Candidates with limited leave to enter or remain who are not currently employed on a work permit (‘able to work as authorised by the Secretary of State’) and who have no endorsement in their passport prohibiting them from taking up employment, can also be considered for employment in the same way as a UK candidate.

It should not be assumed that doctors who have insufficient leave to remain to complete the programme/post they are applying for will be successful in any application they make to the Home Office to extend their stay. The requirements they will need to meet in order to extend their stay will depend on the category of leave they have – for instance if they are here as the dependant of another migrant, they will only be able to extend their stay if the migrant whose dependant they are meets the requirements to extend their stay. In these cases, it would be reasonable for an employer to assume that these doctors may need a work permit to fulfil the contract and therefore not treat them as a UK candidate. If they are successful in securing a post, an employer should then apply for a work permit to allow them to take up the post if relevant (this will depend on the category of leave they have, and whether they are eligible to change the basis of their stay accordingly).
Until now, I personally know that a number of doctors who held dependent status LTR even less than 1 year being appointed to 3/5 year fixed term posts. The understanding is that these people "have a right to work" without needing a workpermit and their current length of LTR had no relevance.

However, following the recent changes for doctors to require workpermits, (which in theory has no relevence to dependent visa holders/HSMP holders), I cant understand why the Home Office now want to pay particular attention to the LTR in anyone who already has a "right to work". This is clearly misintrepretation and also highly discriminatory.

The logic behind this move is pretty simple. The Dept of Health wants to shut down all loopholes possible to prevent non EEA gradutes to occupy highly sought after fixed term specialist training posts.

If this rule is going to continue, holding a HSMP status has no relevance as you will be considered in par with anyone who doesnt have a "right to work".

The irony is that the 3/5 year fixed training schemes are the highly skilled ones and an Highly skilled migrant has to rely on his duration of LTR stamp rather than his highly skilled status to get him through!!

I believe that this is how the rule is interpreted for the doctors and NHS employment alone. If this rule is followed across the board in every other field , I cannot see a HSMP visa holders to be appointed to any post longer than his LTR and to my knowledge I dont believe that this is what is happening.

Can some in HSMP/dependent status holders in other fields confirm that they have been offered a fixed term job longer than their LTR?

shreem
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Post by shreem » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:46 pm

After all, why did the Government introduce HSMP at all? To give a route to highly qualified people to work in the UK without needing a WP. If NHS Trusts are ignorant about the way an HSMP extension is easy to achieve for someone who is working, then surely some education of NHS Trusts needed.
John, this is not just a case of ignorance. There is a clear inner motive of restraining international medical graduates to be able to grab these highly prestigious post that get them to the highest level in medical training ie Consultant specialists in their respective fields.

The British Medical Association(BMA) took up this above issue with the Dept of Health and the Home Office on the 18th of April and the Home Office clearly came up with the reply:

"If your LTR does not cover the duration of the post you apply for, you will not be considered to have "right of work" and hence will not be treated in par with UK/EEA applicants"

The BMA's press release confirming the above was released a few mintues ago and the link is here:

http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/IMGHomeOffice

I quote from the above and in particular:
When it comes to shortlisting, the DH have advised that doctors should be divided into two groups, the first being those who have permission to work in the UK (either because they are UK or EEA citizens, have indefinite leave to remain, or have permit-free status that will last beyond the end of the post or rotation being applied for, or other similar permission), and the second being those who don’t. The doctors in the first group would be considered first for shortlisting, and the second group would be considered only if no-one from the first category could be appointed for whatever reason. This would often mean a second round of interviews, but not a second round of applications.
Out goes the equal opportunity policy held in esteem by the NHS. An HSMP holder who has spent his time making himself highly skilled will lose out on the simple fact that his LTR is not long enough!!

AdiPsych
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Post by AdiPsych » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:30 pm

Hi.. Interesting that the BAPIO March on 21 April 06 seems to have inspired so much discussion.
John... its not that NHS Trusts need re-educating... its more that they are choosing to ignore the issue...
I was appointed to a Specialist Registrar job from 8Feb 2006 to 7Feb 2011. My HSMP extension was approved in Nov 05 and my current Leave to Remain is till 17 Jan 2009.
The employer insists that according to their interpretation they need to get me a work permit as I do not have leave to cover the entire duration of my contract... of course as i was appointed prior to new rules... the post need not be readvertised.
I do not want to switch from HSMP...
The Leave to Remain Team say... Dont switch... why do u want to... they say i should apply for extension in Nov Dec 2008... but agree that extension is not guaranteed...
I am caught between these 2 options with no clear path to follow... it seems a hopeless situation... bet its even worse for those doctors looking for SHO/SpR jobs.

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