Free movement is NON-EXISTENT for non-EU family members!!

[MelC]

Well done, You have 90 days to apply for a residence permit after entry.

To understand the exact details of EU visa stickers,
even to decode the machine codes at the bottom, its in the annex
of the visa code.

Handbook instruction goes along with the new visa code

7. ‘TYPE OF VISA’ heading:

In order to facilitate matters for the control authorities, this heading specifies the type of visa using the letters A, C and D as follows:

A: airport transit visa (as defined in Article 2(5) of this Regulation)

C: visa (as defined in Article 2(2) of this Regulation)

D: long-stay visa

The visa comments section should say "spouse of EU citizen" or "EU family"

my husbands visa says TOURISMO

[MelC]

We collectedthe visa yesterday and we went to the ferry port, and explained the situation, and as far as they are concerned ~ my husband needs to comply with tourist visa regulations or they will refuse him boarding!!!

his visa is tourist is all they can say!!!!

point proven huh?

yes, point taken, and I guess this was the Ferry Port visa checking staff
not Schengen Border Guard.
I was only saying you do have a lawful right, but as you point out,
its lost on clueless "visa checking staff"

The Law seems not worth the paper its written on, if they
can ignore it without comeback. like visa checking staff at
airport or ferry.

Even many Schengen Border Guards, don't have a clue about the
Schengen Border Guard Handbook

6. Persons enjoying the Community right of freemovement
are nationals of EU Member States, EEA countries
and Switzerland, as well as members of their family,
regardless of their nationality, accompanying or joining them.

3. Special rules for checks on certain categories of persons
3.1 Persons enjoying the Community right of free movement
3.1.1 Persons enjoying the Community right of free movement are
authorised to cross the border of a Member State on the basis of the
following documents, as a general rule:
– EU, EEA, CH citizens: identity card or passport;
– members of the family of EU, EEA, CH citizens
who are nationals of a third country: passport.

They may also be required to have an entry visa,
if they are nationals of a third country subject to the
visa obligation, unless they are in possession
of a valid residence permit or card, issued by a Member
State (or by EEA countries or CH).

4.2 No entry or exit stamp must be affixed in the following cases:
4.3 The travel document of family members of EU, EEA and CH citizens
who are third country nationals must also be stamped, unless they present a
residence permit or card with the indication family member of an EU
citizen or family member of an EEA or CH citizen.

it was actually to see if we could book a ticket!!!! they would only permit a RETURN to be booked!

I then emailed the ferry comapny, the same one i travelled here with, and they stated tourist visa ~ must have return!

we are back with solvit lol let them explain it to the ferry company!!!

I know what you were saying, am not disagreeing with you at all, but before we can get to argue with a Schengen border guard we have to exit the "third country" and right now even with hubbies "entry visa" we can't ~
so the situation is that in this country at least, the staff at EU companies are NOT aware of the Directive at all ~ which I am inclined to say is the fault of the italian Govt in our case, that they have not advised transport companies who operate routes from and to the EU that some of the passengers may be under EU law, and how to know if they are!
none of this helps by having "tourismo" in the visa!!! as I said at least EU family or eu spouse would have helped!!
I have a feeling we are going to have to fight and get anohter visa issued!!!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

MSH,

You said they Dutch embassy would not even let you in the front door. Can you provide a little more context about why they did not let you in? Did you have a (needed?) appointment?

You make a lot of statements about how bad it was. But don't really explain what actually happened.

[MSH]

MSH,

You said they Dutch embassy would not even let you in the front door. Can you provide a little more context about why they did not let you in? Did you have a (needed?) appointment?

Not very relevant anymore since I have gotten my wife to my home country now on a tourist visa. But the dutch would not let us in to make an appointment and when I per phone explained we needed a visa for an EU spouse they hung up and didnt answer their phone on numerous successive calls. The spanish let us in to speak with their staff but told us my wife wasnt eligible for a visa since she hadn't stayed legally in the EU before (in direct conflict with the Metock verdict). The german embassy told us that no visa for EU spouses exist. That's what happened. And that is the gist of the complaint I sent to the commission.

But what I am currently working on is finding a way to force my government to respect the ECJ's rulings and the fundamental rights laid out in the LEGALLY BINDING charter. Which is why i'm seeing a legal advice service here in my city later today.

I've collected a rather vast body of evidence showing the grotesque extent to which my own government is taking its violation of ECJ case law.. It's actually depressing reading.

When i'm done I will make a comprehensive post here on all the breaches of community law Denmark is currently committing. Any ideas as to how this can best be brought to the attention of the media, the european parliament, commission and the ECJ is deeply appreciated.

Regards,
MSH.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Not very relevant anymore since I have gotten my wife to my home country now on a tourist visa. But the dutch would not let us in to make an appointment and when I per phone explained we needed a visa for an EU spouse they hung up and didnt answer their phone on numerous successive calls. The spanish let us in to speak with their staff but told us my wife wasnt eligible for a visa since she hadn't stayed legally in the EU before (in direct conflict with the Metock verdict). The german embassy told us that no visa for EU spouses exist. That's what happened. And that is the gist of the complaint I sent to the commission.

I am not sure that technically there is a special visa for an EU spouse. They get a simple Schengen visa, but can not be charged for it.

Did the Spanish give you a refusal in writing? It sounds like you got the furthest with them.

You will have trouble taking your own country to court, since EU law does not apply to your family member unless you have been working in another EU land.

And unfortunately suing another Eu country is difficult if you are not there.

There is a lawyer on the forum from time to time who hails from the Netherlands, who has several times forced the Dutch government to do things they have not been happy with.

[Plum70]

yes we all know that a visa isn't neccesary, but try EXITING certain countires without one! that is the problem we faced.
and the visa SHOULD distinguish between third country nationals and third country FAMILY members, who have rights and priviledges that TCN's dont.

I believe schengen visas have this distinction. I am non-EEA, my hubby is Swiss and my French schengen visa has the endorsement "Famille De ressortissant Suisse" which would not be the case if I had applied as a non-EEA tourist. I have never been asked to show a return ticket, proof of accommodation etc on all my travels.

[86ti]

yes we all know that a visa isn't neccesary, but try EXITING certain countires without one! that is the problem we faced.
and the visa SHOULD distinguish between third country nationals and third country FAMILY members, who have rights and priviledges that TCN's dont.

I believe schengen visas have this distinction. I am non-EEA, my hubby is Swiss and my French schengen visa has the endorsement "Famille De ressortissant Suisse" which would not be the case if I had applied as a non-EEA tourist. I have never been asked to show a return ticket, proof of accommodation etc on all my travels.

I suppose that's in the 'Remarks' field? But I believe MelC mentioned somewhere that the Italians can't do that due to their limited software. Not to mention that it makes a difference where one applies, esp. when the 'immigration pressure' from a particular country is perceived to be 'high'.

[Plum70]

Yes, the 'remarks' field. As I have only ever applied to the French and Dutch I am not confident that this is observed by all schengen states but expect it to be a standard feature on the vignette.

[dazzle]

This thread has been an interesting read for me, as my wife also had many problems in gaining an entry visa under EU rules (Also from an African country). I thought I would add my own experiences.

My wife tried several embassies to get an entry visa into the Schengen area, as the country we are now living (Latvia) was not represented there.

We were first directed to the French embassy, who from the outset were rude, demanding and not knowledgable of our situation. So we then tried the other Schengen embassies.

- The Spanish Embassy said that it was not possible unless my wife had an "EU Family Member ID Card", something to this day I don't know how she obtains.
- The Italian Embassy said that they could not even consider my wife's visa until a previous refusal stamp had been overturned in her passport. We no longer even had any desire to go the country that previously refused. When we stated the Directive, they started to get angry told us to leave.
- The German embassy refuted that they could acommodate this situation, where we were intending to reside in another country than Germany.


So we tried our luck again at the French Embassy, where we needed to pay for an appointment (even though I showed them the EU document extract explicitly stating that it was not allowed to ask an EU Family member to pay for appointments). Anyway, she submitted the documents (over and above those required by the Directive), and they called her a few days later, saying that they are ready to issue the visa, providing she brings a return air ticket. We were not going to entertain that, so my wife went to the embassy with a one-way ticket and an explanation that the residence application will be made in country. They immediately started having a rant at her, shouted at her that they are not "playing games" and that they don't want to see her again in the Embassy (in future she was refused entry).

Emails to the embassy went unreplied. SOLVIT were much too time-consuming. A complaint to the E.C. has gone unnoticed so far.

So, we resorted to her travelling to the nearest Embassy of Latvia (more than 8 hour flight - very costly!). She also needed to get a visit visa just to travel to the embassy, and spend a week away from our 1 month old baby.

They agreed to giving the visa if proof of accomodation and a return ticket was supplied, even though they understood and agreed with our plan to apply for residence permit in-country. Given all the time and money spent so far, we decided to just give in, and bought a return ticket, and they issued the visa.

She now has a temporary residence permit. However I am dreading the next time she visits home back in Africa. Her entry visa has expired and the residence permit is only on a piece of A5 paper - not in the passport - it looks easily forgeable. So the visa checking staff at the airport will almost certainly refuse her to board the plane.

[MSH]

Dazzle:

thank you for posting your story.. almost identical to my own experiences.

Forget Solvit, they're a JOKE.

How long has it been since you lodged your complaint with the EU commission? In my case it took them well over a month to respond but if they never hear about the abuse of your fundamental rights how can they gauge the massive scale of this problem and act?

Also, consider petitioning your Member of the European Parliament.

If we don't fight the institutionalised beloved nothing is ever going to change.

So don't give up.

Is it VITAL for your wife to return to Africa before she has a more permanent residence permit?

I for one am NOT going to let my wife go through this circus again until her EU residence permit is secured..

Best of luck,

MSH.

[dazzle]

hi MSH,
I lodged the EC complaint 4 months ago. I had an acknowledgment and reference number 1 month later.

SOLVIT are no longer interested anyway, because the visa has been issued already, so to them it has been solved - yeah right!

My wife will not have a permanent residence permit for 5 years, so it will be nearly impossible for her not to want to return home in that time period. We also have very good reason for to return early 2011 anyway.

For the return to the EU, we're thinking that the easiest solution (but most expensive) is for her to first fly to the UK from Africa using her British visa. Travel from the UK into Schengen hopefully (!) shouldn't be too problematic.

Of course I do feel that my family's rights have been fundamentally infringed. However, I simply think that nobody in the loop really cares - especially the people back in Africa who made this so difficult.

I will look into the MEP petitioning.. thanks for the idea

[MelC]

wasn't able to log in for a few days???

so please accept my apologies for a few posts one after another, would multi quote if I could work out how you guys do that lol

and NO im not "!trolling" im catching up on a very interesting thread!!!!

[MelC]

yes we all know that a visa isn't neccesary, but try EXITING certain countires without one! that is the problem we faced.
and the visa SHOULD distinguish between third country nationals and third country FAMILY members, who have rights and priviledges that TCN's dont.

I believe schengen visas have this distinction. I am non-EEA, my hubby is Swiss and my French schengen visa has the endorsement "Famille De ressortissant Suisse" which would not be the case if I had applied as a non-EEA tourist. I have never been asked to show a return ticket, proof of accommodation etc on all my travels.

Swiss ~ another story altogether? as although now Scehengen, not EU, but are EEA, so I am guessing that provision is made for Swiss nationals and spouses, as are the other none EU but EEA countries?

I also beleive, that much of the problem is because the metock ruling is not fully understood OUTSIDE of the EU, and that EU states in the main still treat the directive as applying ONLY to those who are already within the border of the EU/EEA.

[86ti]

would multi quote if I could work out how you guys do that

Copy and paste.

Swiss ~ another story altogether? as although now Scehengen, not EU, but are EEA

No. Switzerland is not a member of the EEA and therefore not bound by the Directive but rather by a separate bilateral agreement with the EU (we have several threads about this topic too). Ironically, this agreement is older than the Directive but with very similar content.

[MelC]

yes we all know that a visa isn't neccesary, but try EXITING certain countires without one! that is the problem we faced.
and the visa SHOULD distinguish between third country nationals and third country FAMILY members, who have rights and priviledges that TCN's dont.

I believe schengen visas have this distinction. I am non-EEA, my hubby is Swiss and my French schengen visa has the endorsement "Famille De ressortissant Suisse" which would not be the case if I had applied as a non-EEA tourist. I have never been asked to show a return ticket, proof of accommodation etc on all my travels.

I suppose that's in the 'Remarks' field? But I believe MelC mentioned somewhere that the Italians can't do that due to their limited software. Not to mention that it makes a difference where one applies, esp. when the 'immigration pressure' from a particular country is perceived to be 'high'.

wow, well spotted in my post, yes in the remarks field the Italian embassy in TUNIS has no facility to put anything other than a "schegen" type visa.

This is also the case with the French Embassy in Tunis, although they do go so far as to put "family" rather than tourist.

and Yes, I would agree 100% it DOES matter where you apply, from which third country, and in our case again YES, its not so much now but at one time you could go for a walk on the beach at night and the little boats were lined up ready to make the crossing and hope for the best!!!

never the less, the EU has failed to deal with this situation, the length of time states have to comply etc, if anyone thinks I am the only one here in tunisia, I am not, and everyone is fast runningout of funds due to the delay in getting a visa and then getting OUT of here!!

[MelC]

Dazzle and MSH,

I have to say tht in my case, SOLVIT were really good, on saying that, I was aware of a case the same as mine (here in tunisia) where SOLVIT did not respond etc, and when i contacted them, I was quite stern, and stated what I wanted.

I know people have not even had their reference numbers until "week 9" of 10, I stated that It was unacceptable and wanted mine immediately!

within 1 week, Solvit were on to the Italian solvit, and I had my reference number, and with that, I was able to make a lot of progress in driving people crazy myself, it seemed to have an effect when I was able to quote my SOLVIT reference, as in they knew they were in trouble by then, and that my stating that I had contacted solvit, and would see it through to infringement proceedings and hopefully a heavy fine for Italy (in my case) DID get results!

I am posting this in the hopes that it might help others.

I do also have to say that I used a Business email address, that is .eu and that might have had something to do with it too

[MelC]

Dazzle,

which African country is your wife from?

I really believe that Africa as a whole is experiencing the same situation,

your comments re the other embassies, you could be talking about Tunisia ~ and again, this leads me to beleive that within the EU border and being outside of it makes a lot of difference!

its not so much entering the EU, and any issues with the border guards, but more a case of being able to Exit the darn third country in the first place!

which is the responsibility of the EU member state to educate and train their staff who are in third countries, which might suprise the EU to learn that that in fact is the rest of the world!!

[MelC]

and please forgive this post, as it concerns the EEA/fp and I know there is a seperate section:

but I can confirm that tunisians who apply for the EEA/fp have no problems whatsoever in getting the entry visa or leaving tunisia!

not that it helps those not going to or elegible to go to the UK, but it shows that someone is getting it right? other than the EEA/fp isn't mandatory, but try getting out of here without a visa? its a prisonable offence!!

[MelC]

Dazzle and MSH (again)

I echo your sentimements re complaining to the EU, MEP's etc,

and in a previous post (on another thread in this section) I made a comment to acme4242, about one voice not being heard?

and I think sometimes that each individual complaint takes time, whereas maybe a "petitioned" complaint carries more weight?

in the post i refer to with acme4242, I can say that as we both made a complaint, we BOTH got a response and I have continued with the contact
and we corresspond via email regularly, and they are keeping me updated on thier progress with the EU, in getting some clarification for the visa situation on the system used by the travel industry, where different countries are accepting and/or rejecting certain travellers as the data system has no reference to EU entry visa (yes we know its a Schengen visa, but different countries put different things in the remarks!)

as my hubby has his visa, and I have beaten the ferry company into submission, I am not doing this for myself, but as the opportunity has arisen to help others, I am going with it, for the benefit of all of the posters here.

IF you think it might be beneficial to put in joint/petitioned complaints, I would be more than willing to contribute. please pm me, and that is to everyone not just dazzle and MSH.

[MelC]

One final comment, I promise, I will go and sit in the corner then and be quiet.

to beat the ferry company into submission, I put together a collection of directive regulations ONLY concerning exiting third countries, and entering the SCHENGEN area (ie not UK Ireland etc) I used info from the directive 2004/38, the guide, com 313, visa code, schengen border guide, schegnen border guard handbook. and emailed it to the ferry company, and asked them to be so kind as to read it, and check on it for themselves, and they did!
and then emailed me to confirm that I was indeed quite correct, and welcomed our booking ONE WAY!

It took ages to copy and paste and resize the document, but it had the desired effect.

I was also asked my permission, and i gave it, for both my own situation and the problems encountered, AND this document I put together to be put forward to the EU Commission, to show how citizens are having to "educate" member states embassies and companies in third countries.

I will let you know if and when I receive any response.

right, I will go sit in my corner now and be quiet.

[Plum70]

and I think sometimes that each individual complaint takes time, whereas maybe a "petitioned" complaint carries more weight?

Definitely does. I spearheaded a petitioned complaint 2 years ago concerning the UK's non-compliance to the EU Directive when issuing (permanent) RCs to non-EEA family members. It took one year but, with over 100 signatures, some case files and my unrelenting vigour, it spurred the EC into summoning the UKBA to account and pressuring it into compliance. Back then RC processing times were on average 11-12 months; now they are down to 5 - 6 months as should be.