I am not an Irish citizen

[Ben]

So I applied for naturalisation based on "Irish Associations" (to be related by blood or affinity to a person who is an Irish citizen). My son is an Irish citizen. The minister may waive the five year residence condition for such applications.

..he didn't. My application was refused. As was my wife's, my mother-in-law's and my father-in-law's. Strangely, we are yet to receive a decision letter for my 17 year old brother-in-law. We all applied at the same time, same envelope.

Oh well.

[Wisco]

That's unfortunate, but not surprising I suppose. Who knows why they make the decisions they make?
Will you be reapplying once your 5 year residency is fulfilled?

[Ben]

That's unfortunate, but not surprising I suppose. Who knows why they make the decisions they make?
Will you be reapplying once your 5 year residency is fulfilled?

More than likely.

[fatty patty]

Sometimes i think these waivers by minister are only there if they suit the greedy state. for e.g. if one plays footie across the pond with slightest of Irish connection then that person is suddenly Irish as a sheep from kerry would be.

[Ben]

Maybe I'm being naive, but they could have got five grand out of us. We're still entitled to live in Ireland even without Irish citizenship so I'm not sure what they think they've gained by refusing..

[ca.funke]

Hi Ben,

your wife applied (also)?
What about her Singaporean citizenship??

She´s willing to give that up for the shamrock, or did SG change their non-dual-nationality approach?

Rgds from Switzerland,
Christian

[Ben]

Hi Ben,

your wife applied (also)?
What about her Singaporean citizenship??

She´s willing to give that up for the shamrock, or did SG change their non-dual-nationality approach?

Rgds from Switzerland,
Christian

Well hello sir, long time no speak!

No, we were just going to keep quiet. If the citizenship were to be granted, we'd get Irish passports but my wife would also get a "Without Condition" stamp in her Singapore passport (like my son has).

[ca.funke]

Well hello sir, long time no speak!

No, we were just going to keep quiet. If the citizenship were to be granted, we'd get Irish passports but my wife would also get a "Without Condition" stamp in her Singapore passport (like my son has).

Hi Ben,

"keeping quiet" may not be an option:

When I got naturalised in Belgium (I was German before), the Belgian authorities sent a letter to the German embassy in Brussels, content:

FYI: Your citizen (my details) has been awarded Belgian citizenship...

Well, there were no further consequences for me, but if Ireland would do the same for a Singaporean citizen I can see trouble coming to that particular person...

Please be sure that you know what you´re doing!

Rgds, Christian

[Ben]

Thanks Christian. The Irish authorities don't do that - I checked beforehand.

Are you still in Zurich?

[ca.funke]

Yep, still in Zürich, you have a PM:)

Another practical thing you would need to worry about:

What would you do, when you travel to SG? Imagine you get into a (routine-)luggage-check, where they would find the SG-citizen´s second passport... Ouch.

So you´d have to be tripple-careful what (not) to do with the Irish Passport in SG.

[Ben]

Don't worry, the Irish passport would never have entered Singapore.

But anyway, it's not happening now. Well, not yet..

[Obie]

Even though it is not explicitly stated, i strongly believe the Irish Association rules applies to minors only, who have association with an Irish person, by blood or affinity.

But because the Irish Law makers tend not to do a good job of explaining things properly in their legislation, these cases are highly likely to come up in the future. Just like on a first look of their EEA regulation that transposed Directive 2004/38EC, one would think it is applicable to all Union Citizens, and on the basis of EU case laws that states that one does not necessarily need to move to acquire free movement rights, an Irish National can claim free movement rights in Ireland. But it is not as simple as that in practice.

I believe your brother-in- law has a better prospect of succeeding in his application, than the adult relatives.

I wish you all the best with future application, the good thing with the Irish system is the fact that you loose don't loose anything by making an application for naturalisation. Had it been in the UK, you most likely would have lost you application processing fee, and would only have received refund for the Oath Ceremony.

[Ben]

Thank you. I haven't got the refusal letters to hand, but the wording is basically that the minister can see no compassionate circumstances in the applications that would warrant waiving the five year residence condition.

In fairness, I can't disagree with that. There are no compassionate circumstances so fair's fair.

Regarding my brother-in-law, I have an inkling that we'll receive his refusal letter this week. They bundle similar applications together for presentation to the minister for a decision and, I suspect, they had no other applications under Irish Associations as the uncle of an Irish national who has not yet been resident in the state for five years.

Will keep you posted anyway.

[daddy]

Hi Ben, could you please, explain to us what you mean by ''Irish Association'' in respect to naturalisation application, for the benefit of some of us who are not aware of it.
Thanks.

[Ben]

Hi Ben, could you please, explain to us what you mean by ''Irish Association'' in respect to naturalisation application, for the benefit of some of us who are not aware of it.
Thanks.

In order to apply for naturalisation on the basis of being of "Irish Associations", an applicant must be related by blood or affinity to a person who is an Irish citizen. For such applications, the minister may use his discretion to waive certain other conditions of naturalisation as an Irish citizen, such as the five year reckonable residence condition.

See also Section 16(2) of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act.

[ciaramc]

Ben quick question.......

I'm an Irish citizen born and bred! My daughter obviously is Irish...what i wanted to know (if you've any idea) My husband is the father of my daughter we have been married 5 years but never resident on the Island of Ireland ...but next year we may well be! So they will only consider my husbands application for citizenship after 3-5 years ??? Do you think it would be possible to apply before then?? I understand you have not been successfull......but have other people been granted this waiver???

Thanks
Sorry for hijacking your thread?

[Ben]

Hi Ciara!

I think other "Irish Associations" applicants have been granted the waiver of the five year reckonable residence condition. Obie may have a point though, that the minister may be more inclined to grant the waiver more for minor applicants than for adult applicants. I just don't know.

The lads at work were just joking that my refusal was the government's way of saying "in other words - feck off back to England". lol

I digress. Since your husband is related by blood to a person who is an Irish citizen, he is entitled to apply for naturalisation on the basis of being a person of Irish Associations. However, the minister may also decide that he can see no compassionate circumstances in your husband's application that would warrant waiving the five (three) year residence condition.

But sure, applications are free.

[ciaramc]

Hello Ben....it's been awhile!!!

I've had a busy year....and it seems I'm heading back to Ireland right when they are in a major recession typical! I missed all the best years!

Anyway as you said I will apply sure what harm will it do....I mean if we are to wait the 5(3) years we will have been married almost 11years....and god only knows how long they take to actually process....

I plan on apply for 4EUfam permit when we arrive as I've been exercising treaty rights the past 10 years!

[Ben]

Good luck with everything Ciara..

4EUfam permit

Eek! That's nails on a blackboard to me!

[ciaramc]

Well since we are entitled to it...I thought why not apply.....it will give my husband easier access to travel in Europe! Even though he should have it anyway in my opinion as he is married to an EU citizen!

Think it will be an uphill battle though....

[Ben]

I meant your use of the word "permit"..

[9jeirean]

Even though it is not explicitly stated, i strongly believe the Irish Association rules applies to minors only, who have association with an Irish person, by blood or affinity.

But because the Irish Law makers tend not to do a good job of explaining things properly in their legislation, these cases are highly likely to come up in the future. Just like on a first look of their EEA regulation that transposed Directive 2004/38EC, one would think it is applicable to all Union Citizens, and on the basis of EU case laws that states that one does not necessarily need to move to acquire free movement rights, an Irish National can claim free movement rights in Ireland. But it is not as simple as that in practice.

I believe your brother-in- law has a better prospect of succeeding in his application, than the adult relatives.

I wish you all the best with future application, the good thing with the Irish system is the fact that you loose don't loose anything by making an application for naturalisation. Had it been in the UK, you most likely would have lost you application processing fee, and would only have received refund for the Oath Ceremony.

Hi Obie,

In relation to the highlighted part of your post above. I am not entirely sure that is the case. Let me relate our experience: Our first child was born outside of Ireland; He is still a minor. Our second child was born in Ireland and has an Irish citizenship (born before the rule changed in 2005). So then we applied for naturalization for our first child on the basis of having a blood tie to an Irish citizen. All necessary documentations to that effect provided and acknowleged by the DoJ. The application was refused. can't remember exactly what the wording of the reason was but basically the minister had not be convinced that whatever "blood/affinity" existed btw my first and 2nd child was strong enough in that case. He had subsequently been naturalized following my own naturalization.

It would be interesting to refer to someone who had been naturalized via this route to appraise what sort of relationship existed between them and he Irish citizen. Until then, IMO, I think this is another of those winky winky policies that was put in place to be used if and when it suits the minister.

[Ben]

IMO, I think this is another of those winky winky policies that was put in place to be used if and when it suits the minister.

Could be.. Certainly could be..

[walrusgumble]

That's unfortunate, but not surprising I suppose. Who knows why they make the decisions they make?
Will you be reapplying once your 5 year residency is fulfilled?

Respectively,


Because you could hardly call a brother in law (child's uncle) citizenship on the basis of "affinity" and "bloodline", in light of the fact that a spouse is no longer entitled to automatic citizenship. Sorry, but that is not what McDowell had in mind. Check the Dail Committe discussions. It would not make sense and make a mockery of the legilsative requirements. As to the parents, I would have some sympathy, but 5 years is not a long time to wait

For my two cent, McDowell, who was fully against the IBC situation from continuing, made certain, that this would not apply where it involved minor children, as to do so, might make it difficult to justify the 18,000 to 20,000 potential applications for citizenship (figures who obtained ibc05) without the need to be solely assessed on their own basis. These issues were discussed by the department during the changes to the act - a time when proposals for the implementation for the roll out of the ibc 05 scheme was being made. - fact

Are there any country who give citizenship to parents (ala Ben's position) and also to uncle/aunt/grandmothers on the basis of nationality of a minor ?

[walrusgumble]

Sometimes i think these waivers by minister are only there if they suit the greedy state. for e.g. if one plays footie across the pond with slightest of Irish connection then that person is suddenly Irish as a sheep from kerry would be.

Clinton Morrisson lol.

Those footie players, unlike you are Irish automatically as of birth. They meet the citizenship rules of this State, their parents / grandparents are Irish. They are members of the Irish disapora, which this country states, hold a "natural affection" for. Whether or not they play football for Ireland, they are entitled to pick up a passport. How they were brought up, is an entirely different manner. You hardly expect the children of the 1970/1980's to be all Irish dancing, rebel song nonsense lovers. Some people have got styles and reputations to uphold on the school yeard

how is it greedy?