ESC

Click the "allow" button if you want to receive important news and updates from immigrationboards.com


Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Welcome to immigrationboards.com!

Login Register Do not show

EEA4 on 5-year relationship but 4-year Marriage

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, CR001, zimba, meself2

Locked
ld
Newly Registered
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:44 pm

EEA4 on 5-year relationship but 4-year Marriage

Post by ld » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:01 pm

Hi,

I am sure quite a few people will be in this situation.

I am hoping to apply for my EEA4 in April-2011, based on 5-Year relationship with my EEA partner. I have been married since 2007, but have been in a relationship since April-2006, which eventually led to marriage in April-2007.

I can't find exact guidlines on this scenario in the UK Immigration Law and the EU Law doesn't give guidance on this scenario either.

I am able to provide all relevant documents to prove Exercising Treaty Rights for this period, living together etc etc, so don't see that side as a problem.

I am not sure if this will be a valid application based on the result of another case that got refused: (http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=67094)

I am sure I have seen another thread on this portal that had success in similar situation.

People with knowledge in this area, or experience of going through an EEA4 application with similar condition, please share your experience (whether it was a success or failure).

Thanks and regards

86ti
Diamond Member
Posts: 2760
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:07 am

Re: EEA4 on 5-year relationship but 4-year Marriage

Post by 86ti » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:07 pm

ld wrote:I am sure I have seen another thread on this portal that had success in similar situation.
Just form today: http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=67094

UK Immigration Law doesn't apply to you.

bobbysatya4u
Newbie
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:40 pm

Re: EEA4 on 5-year relationship but 4-year Marriage

Post by bobbysatya4u » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:18 pm

ld wrote:Hi,

People with knowledge in this area, or experience of going through an EEA4 application with similar condition, please share your experience (whether it was a success or failure).

Thanks and regards
Hi,
I applied for pr with 3 yrs marriage n 2 yrs living together and had positive outcome.Make sure that u write a cover letter explaining this and provide all d relevant evidence about living together such as utility bills etc in joint name.All the best.

ys704
Newly Registered
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:06 am

Post by ys704 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:20 pm

that's excellent news bobbysatya4u!! Thanks for sharing your experience.

Did you apply for any family permit or RC before applying for PR?

ld
Newly Registered
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:44 pm

Re: EEA4 on 5-year relationship but 4-year Marriage

Post by ld » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:51 am

[quote]
Hi,
I applied for pr with 3 yrs marriage n 2 yrs living together and had positive outcome.Make sure that u write a cover letter explaining this and provide all d relevant evidence about living together such as utility bills etc in joint name.All the best.[/quote]

Hi bobbysatya4u

Thanks for your reply to my post.

Can you possibly share the covering letter either on this post of PM me (you can exclude personal details), so I can get a feel of what needs explaining.

Also, were you in possession of EEA2 at the time of PR application. If so, then was the Homeoffice aware of your relationship before marrainge at the time of EEA2?

I have read in numerous posts on this board that HO will only recognis relationship outside marriage if they were informed of it in the 1st instace (relatively 5-years ago)?

Regards

ys704
Newly Registered
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:06 am

Post by ys704 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:27 am

Hi ld, did you get a reply from bobby? I'm also waiting to see his response.

ld
Newly Registered
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:44 pm

EEA4 on 5-year relationship but 4-year Marriage

Post by ld » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:26 pm

Hi ys704, No, I haven't heard anything from bobby.


bobbysatya4u,

Can you please be kind enough to leave your comments. Would be great to recevie some assistance from you as you already have had success in this issue.

Thanks

mcovet
BANNED
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:00 pm

Re: EEA4 on 5-year relationship but 4-year Marriage

Post by mcovet » Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:39 am

UPDATE: Please see UKBA Reply
http://immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=68425

Hi, what status had you been on before you married your EEA? Was it work, student etc? and was this relationship in the UK for 5 years?

If yes, I also don't see any reason why it shouldn't work. The regulations say under 15(1)(b) that PR should be issued to an EEA family member if resided for 5 years IN ACCORDANCE with the Regs. Now, that could be interpreted as from when you first got married and thus started to derive your rights from the EEA.

You could argue that any time lived together in a durable relationship (which can at least be proved via the same address paperwork etc and if not, the affidavit from both of you or landlord etc) is ALSO counted towards the "living in accordance with the Regs" as an extended family member, which should be easy to prove as that LED to the marriage and wasn't a sham.

Further, people don't just get married straightaway (at least majority), they do live some time together in a durable relationship before marriage, therefore, how and at what point can the UKBA claim that this or that period shouldn't be counted as the durable relationship?

Finally, why is it that those people in durable relationship, without getting married, can apply for PR (having initially obtained confirmation of the right in the form of a RC) on the basis of 5 years durable relationship, and those who actually do get married should discard the time before marriage?

Here the claim would be made that before the marriage you were living with the EEA under Reg.8(5) as an extended family member (partner) in durable relationship (regardless of your status in the UK, be it worker, student etc) and then after marriage transferred into a family member category under 7(1)(a). All counting towards the 5 years living together in the UK!

I think you could even use the Judicial Review procedure if they refuse as the Secretary of State would have erred in law!

Hope this makes sense and if anyone has any comments, please shoot.


Also, Directive 2004/38, preamble 17 states:
".... A right of permanent residence should therefore be laid down for all Union citizens and their family members who have resided in the host Member State in compliance with the conditions laid down in this Directive during a continuous period of five years without
becoming subject to an expulsion measure."

further, Article 16(2) states (in relation to family members):
"Paragraph 1 shall apply also to family members who are not nationals of a Member State and
have legally resided with the Union citizen in the host Member State for a continuous period of
five years." Note, that there is no mentioning of the way they should reside together, so long this is "legal" joint residence. Thus, if you were on some other leave in the UK living with the EEA national, this should count towards the 5 years!


ld wrote:Hi,

I am sure quite a few people will be in this situation.

I am hoping to apply for my EEA4 in April-2011, based on 5-Year relationship with my EEA partner. I have been married since 2007, but have been in a relationship since April-2006, which eventually led to marriage in April-2007.

I can't find exact guidlines on this scenario in the UK Immigration Law and the EU Law doesn't give guidance on this scenario either.

I am able to provide all relevant documents to prove Exercising Treaty Rights for this period, living together etc etc, so don't see that side as a problem.

I am not sure if this will be a valid application based on the result of another case that got refused: (http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=67094)

I am sure I have seen another thread on this portal that had success in similar situation.

People with knowledge in this area, or experience of going through an EEA4 application with similar condition, please share your experience (whether it was a success or failure).

Thanks and regards
Last edited by mcovet on Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CheGuevara
- thin ice -
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:56 am
Mood:
Ireland

clarification please

Post by CheGuevara » Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:18 pm

Getting all confused, do you get permanent residence based on 5year residency or on 5 years marriage - my mate has been married 6 years and resident under EU law for 2 and a half years but were cohabiting 5 years b4 marriage. Any ideas

mcovet
BANNED
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:00 pm

Re: clarification please

Post by mcovet » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:42 pm

Sorry, I know it seems confusing :) you get PR on the basis of (briefly discarding the EEA's requirement to exercise Treaty Rights for the 5 years you live together):
1) Having resided with the EEA for 5 years;
2) That joint residence should be "in accordance with the "EU Law" i.e. being a family member/extended family member;
3) When you marry and provided your EEA is exercising Treaty Rights, you are a family member of the EEA and are living in accordance with the "EU Law". But that is only ONE of the situations where you are regarded a family member, you could never get married, live in a durable relationship as a couple and still be regarded a family member, thus living with the EEA national "in accordance with the EU Law";

Many don't notice this subtlety as mostly people only come to the UK as the spouses etc, being family members on this basis from the outset and the 5 years starts to tick from when they enter on that basis. However, consider situations such as Id here:

a) he/she might have been in the UK on some other visa, living with the EEA in a durable relationship (thus, hypothetically qualifying as a family member/extended family member);
b) then they get married and Id becomes a "family member" but why should the time before marriage not count? The law is clear as to the requirement, all one needs is 5 years living together, EEA exercising Treaty Rights. Now, proving it may be harder because you wouldn't have the solid evidence as you have with the Marriage Certificate etc. But in theory this should be allowed.

Imagine a situation where Id just carries on living with the EEA forever, without getting married, Id would qualify as an extended family member (provided proof can be provided) and after 5 years of such joint residence Id could apply for PR, without ever getting married!

So, why should those who decide to eventually get married lose out on the time they had lived together in the UK as counting towards joint residence? They shouldn't, but since there are few such cases etc, and most people don't think as deep as Id did, this gets ignored.

Finally, on a practical note it is quite another thing to persuade the UKBA caseworker to take time and think about it, since they will (as already said) look at the date of the marriage certificate, count five years and if it doesn't add up, refuse the application.

Others would probably correct me, but you could then appeal to an Asylum and Immigration Tribunal trying to fight your case, if they refuse, go all the way to Judicial Review to prove that public body erred in law as they are meant to interpret any UK legislation in the light of the Directives etc.

And Post post scriptum, even if you do manage to get PR that 1 year earlier, I guess the next stage would be to go for Naturalisation (where you need to have been resident in the UK for a year without any restriction on your stay), problem here would be that, by the time you obtain the PR through the appeals etc, it would have taken a year anyway, so if you wanted to prove that you were entitled to PR on such and such a date, you'd need to write another covering letter explaining that you actually are due PR a year before your 5th anniversary, soo.... quite some info to digest.

(apologies for my "eloquence" :)


Thus, if you see my point, ould be either through 5 years MARRIED (which is easier to prove as you have


CheGuevara wrote:Getting all confused, do you get permanent residence based on 5year residency or on 5 years marriage - my mate has been married 6 years and resident under EU law for 2 and a half years but were cohabiting 5 years b4 marriage. Any ideas

CheGuevara
- thin ice -
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:56 am
Mood:
Ireland

Re: clarification please

Post by CheGuevara » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:47 pm

mcovet wrote:Sorry, I know it seems confusing :) you get PR on the basis of (briefly discarding the EEA's requirement to exercise Treaty Rights for the 5 years you live together):
1) Having resided with the EEA for 5 years;
2) That joint residence should be "in accordance with the "EU Law" i.e. being a family member/extended family member;
3) When you marry and provided your EEA is exercising Treaty Rights, you are a family member of the EEA and are living in accordance with the "EU Law". But that is only ONE of the situations where you are regarded a family member, you could never get married, live in a durable relationship as a couple and still be regarded a family member, thus living with the EEA national "in accordance with the EU Law";

Many don't notice this subtlety as mostly people only come to the UK as the spouses etc, being family members on this basis from the outset and the 5 years starts to tick from when they enter on that basis. However, consider situations such as Id here:

a) he/she might have been in the UK on some other visa, living with the EEA in a durable relationship (thus, hypothetically qualifying as a family member/extended family member);
b) then they get married and Id becomes a "family member" but why should the time before marriage not count? The law is clear as to the requirement, all one needs is 5 years living together, EEA exercising Treaty Rights. Now, proving it may be harder because you wouldn't have the solid evidence as you have with the Marriage Certificate etc. But in theory this should be allowed.

Imagine a situation where Id just carries on living with the EEA forever, without getting married, Id would qualify as an extended family member (provided proof can be provided) and after 5 years of such joint residence Id could apply for PR, without ever getting married!

So, why should those who decide to eventually get married lose out on the time they had lived together in the UK as counting towards joint residence? They shouldn't, but since there are few such cases etc, and most people don't think as deep as Id did, this gets ignored.

Finally, on a practical note it is quite another thing to persuade the UKBA caseworker to take time and think about it, since they will (as already said) look at the date of the marriage certificate, count five years and if it doesn't add up, refuse the application.

Others would probably correct me, but you could then appeal to an Asylum and Immigration Tribunal trying to fight your case, if they refuse, go all the way to Judicial Review to prove that public body erred in law as they are meant to interpret any UK legislation in the light of the Directives etc.

And Post post scriptum, even if you do manage to get PR that 1 year earlier, I guess the next stage would be to go for Naturalisation (where you need to have been resident in the UK for a year without any restriction on your stay), problem here would be that, by the time you obtain the PR through the appeals etc, it would have taken a year anyway, so if you wanted to prove that you were entitled to PR on such and such a date, you'd need to write another covering letter explaining that you actually are due PR a year before your 5th anniversary, soo.... quite some info to digest.

(apologies for my "eloquence" :)


Thus, if you see my point, ould be either through 5 years MARRIED (which is easier to prove as you have


CheGuevara wrote:Getting all confused, do you get permanent residence based on 5year residency or on 5 years marriage - my mate has been married 6 years and resident under EU law for 2 and a half years but were cohabiting 5 years b4 marriage. Any ideas
Thanx a million Mcovet

ys704
Newly Registered
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:06 am

Post by ys704 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:18 pm

Thanks a lot Mcovet!!

It's a shame you didn't reply before I submitted my appeal. They are really useful information and I could have used them in my appeal form. However I have stated the reason more or less like yours, i.e. UKBA should not have just looked at the period after the marriage, they should take into consideration the whole period together. Fingers crossed my appeal will win!! but who knows how long it's gonna take.

Moreover my employer has stated if my appeal fails they would not be able to employ me despite I am a family memeber of a EEA. Therefore to be on a safe side, I'm going to apply for a EEA2 at the same time, then maybe withdraw the appeal??

just out of interest, can I apply for EEA2 and leave the appeal open? If I win the appeal, what will happen?

mcovet
BANNED
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:00 pm

Post by mcovet » Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:49 pm

Hi, I see no reason why you cannot apply on form EEA2 if you provide all the relevant info, plus you'd be able to obtain a Certificate of Application which would state you are able to work while your passport is at the UKBA, so your employer won't give you trouble.

ys704 wrote:Thanks a lot Mcovet!!

It's a shame you didn't reply before I submitted my appeal. They are really useful information and I could have used them in my appeal form. However I have stated the reason more or less like yours, i.e. UKBA should not have just looked at the period after the marriage, they should take into consideration the whole period together. Fingers crossed my appeal will win!! but who knows how long it's gonna take.

Moreover my employer has stated if my appeal fails they would not be able to employ me despite I am a family memeber of a EEA. Therefore to be on a safe side, I'm going to apply for a EEA2 at the same time, then maybe withdraw the appeal??

just out of interest, can I apply for EEA2 and leave the appeal open? If I win the appeal, what will happen?

mcovet
BANNED
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:00 pm

Re: EEA4 on 5-year relationship but 4-year Marriage

Post by mcovet » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:33 pm

This guy probably was given a RC first, based on the durable relationship, and only then added the 3-year marriage, please see this link for the UKBA answer to this question. Many may disagree (including myself) but that's how they see it.

http://immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=68425



bobbysatya4u wrote: Hi,
I applied for pr with 3 yrs marriage n 2 yrs living together and had positive outcome.Make sure that u write a cover letter explaining this and provide all d relevant evidence about living together such as utility bills etc in joint name.All the best.

ld
Newly Registered
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:44 pm

EEA4 on 5-year relationship but 4-year Marriage

Post by ld » Mon May 23, 2011 9:36 am

Hi,

Just wanted to give you update of the response I have recevied from "your Europe Advise", part of the EU Commission.

I wrote to them asking for their advise and the interpretation of the EC DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC by EU Commision.

This is the replt that I recevie:

[quote]Thank you for contacting Your Europe Advice.

Under Article 16(2) the family members who are not nationals of a Member State and have legally resided with the Union citizen in the host Member State for a continuous period of five years have a right to permanent residence.

Therefore, if you have been living with your wife for five years in the UK, you should have a right to reside in the UK.

In order to claim permanent residence, the family member of an EU citizen must demonstrate that they have been living for at least five years in the UK with the EU citizen, by showing that (1) they have been living in the UK for at least five years before applying, and that (2) they are the family member of an EU citizen and that (3) the EU citizen was working or studying or self-sufficient during this period and (4) during this period, they have not been absent from the UIK for more than 6 months (or one year in exceptional circumstances).

You should know that the Directive merely specifies that the family member must have been “legallyâ€

Locked