Overstaying in the UK but getting married with Italian.

neko · Post by **neko** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:42 am

Hi I'm Italian man living in the UK with my Japanese girlfriend for 13months, but she's been overstaying for 3 years and half.
We're planing to go to Japan and Italy, get married in couple of months,
and come back to the UK.

When she get a visa in Italy, is that valid in the UK?
or is there any possibility that she'll be rejected to enter or fined,
because of her bad history?

She renewed her passport, issued in the UK.
Should she renew again in Japan?(Does immigration know her record
anyway?)

Should we prepare to proof that this is a real marriage? like our photos....

Can anybody give me any advice please!!!!!!

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:17 am

This link may give some food for thought - I believe your girlfirend will need to apply from Japen, rather than Italy - Do I Need A UK Visa

Good luck

Post by **John** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:57 am

Neko, Paul has given you good advice. So you will appreciate that as regards :-

When she get a visa in Italy, is that valid in the UK?

-: the answer is No!

Where are the two of you planning to marry? Clearly marriage in the UK is not possible, well certainly not with her current immigration status.

EEA Family Permit is clearly the way to go. Application should be made in Japan. As Paul also appreciates, application in Italy is not possible because she is not living there. Merely visiting Italy would not change that.

neko · Post by **neko** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:22 pm

Hi Paul and John, thank you for your reply!

I searched on internet about 'Japanese getting married in Italy',
and it said it's ok to go there, get married and wait for a permission
to live in Italy, so I thought this visa is valid in the UK.
Anyway we're going to get married in Japan,
and stay in Italy for around or over 3 months.
Is there any possibility that she'll be rejected,
when she apply for EEA family permit to UK embassy in Japan?
Do we need any extra document to prove our marriage is genuine?

We can't afford to hire a soliciter, we need your advise!!
Thank you!

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:05 pm

You asked if a national of Japan needs a visa to come to the UK as a wife.

Yes, you need a visa.

Please read Guidance - Husbands, Wives and Partners for more information.

To apply for a visa you will need to fill in form VAF2 - Settlement.

If you are a national of, or are normally and legally living in Italy, please make your application to Rome.

Currently, applications are accepted only by post or agency. Personal callers will be seen only by appointment.

As you can see, there's no possibility of getting married in Italy and applying from there as your girlfriend is not normally and legally living in Italy. So Japan it will have to be. The only record the UK immigration authorities will have of your girlfriend will be when she has entered the UK unless she has been subjected to one of these random exit checks that some people have mentioned on this forum. So hopefully all should go well when you apply for the permit from the UK embassy in Japan.

Post by **John** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:03 pm

Neko, it is not clear from what you post how long you have been exercising your treaty rights in the UK. How long have you been living and working here?

If at least four years, have you got a UK Permanent Residence sticker in your passport?

If not then your wife (as she will be) cannot apply for a spouse visa in Japan. She will have to apply for an EEA Family Permit and would use application form VAF1 to apply for that.

Download :-

Form VAF1

Guidance INF18

But if you have a UK Permanent Residence sticker in your Italian passport then there is a further choice. Please post whether you have such a sticker.

neko · Post by **neko** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:17 pm

I've been in the UK more than 4 years and I work but not full time.
Applying EEA Family Permit from Japan seems good for my girlfriend.

Thank you very much for your advise!
You guys's been very very helpful!!!!!!

Post by **John** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:34 pm

Neko, as it appears that you have been exercising your treaty rights in the UK for at least four years you have the right to get a UK Permanence Residence sticker in your Italian passport. However, two points ..... firstly it would take a period of time to achieve .. secondly if your wife (as she will be) will be applying for an EEA Family Permit, it is not important at this point in time.

So when the application for EEA Family Permit is made in Japan, do ensure that evidence is produced to show you are exercising your treaty rights in the UK ... and of course evidence that the two of you are married, by producing the marriage certificate. That marriage certificate, and indeed any other document not in English, needs to be accompanied by a translation into English.

The good news about EEA Family Permits .... the application fee is ... NIL!

neko · Post by **neko** » Tue May 09, 2006 10:59 am

Hi guys!
I'm in Japan with my wife now, got married last month,
and we're having great time till yesterday.
I've been living in the UK for 5 years and my wife 11 years.
My wife applied EEA Family Permit in the UK embassy,
but was REFUSED because they're not happy about her 4 years overstaying in the UK and they think it was a marriage of convenience.
We're so unsatisfied of their decision and ask some question,
what was the problem but they explained NOTHING!!!

We can appeal about this but they told us it's going to take
several months, that mean we have to stay separate
which we don't want to.
We already showed them all our documents which prooved,
we've been living together for a year and half in the same address,
like bank statements, house contract and our photos as well.

Do you think it's difficult to appeal?(takes long time and need a lawyer?)
or
We could live in Italy, but we have to sort out lots of our luggages,
is it possible for her to get some short visit visa?

We don't know what to do...............................
Please please give us some advise!!!!
Thank you

Post by **John** » Tue May 09, 2006 11:27 am

Neko, sorry to hear that.

Can you give more detail about what it says on the rejection notice? Also, what evidence was submitted in support of the application for an EEA Family Permit for your wife?

It could possibly be the case that the evidence submitted was insufficient for the purpose and that applying again with better evidence might solve the problem.

Given for, as you say, an appeal will take months, and an application for EEA Family Permit is free, it is probably best to submit a further application countering the reasons for rejection on the previous application.

Overstaying! It never helps with any subsequent application. Do post the exact reasons for rejection so that we can see to what extent the overstaying has had on the decision.

neko · Post by **neko** » Tue May 09, 2006 12:06 pm

"Can you give more detail about what it says on the rejection notice? Also, what evidence was submitted in support of the application for an EEA Family Permit for your wife? "

REFUSAL OF EEA FAMILY PERMIT

You have admitted to entering the United Kingdom as a student in 1995
and were given leave to remain until 31st July 2002. You completed your studies in 2002 but chose not to leave until 31 March 2006 when you returned to Japan for the purpose of getting married. I am not satisfied that you have observed the time limit or conditions attached to a previous grant of leave to enter the United Kingdom and I am not prepared to exercise discretion in your favour.
HC 395 Paragraph 320 (11)

You have now applied for admission to the United Kingdom by virtue of European Community Law as the family member of a European Ecconomic Area national who is exercising, or wishes to exercise, rights of free movement under the Treaty establishing the European Community in the United Kingdom, but I am satisfied that it is a marriage of convenience.

that's what the refusal says,

We provided our bank statements for last 1 year and half and my payslips for last 1 year and half, which shows we have been living in not 1 but two addresses, house contract of the current address in the UK,
our GP register letters which we registerd together on the same day in the same doctor, and our photos, 1 cd full of pictures with dates which shows us together since September 2004.
Also each of us were interviewed.

What do you think?

ilm · Post by **ilm** » Tue May 09, 2006 12:55 pm

Very sorry to hear about this. I know how worrying it was when we applied but looking at your evidence it does seem a bit thin.

There is nothing you can do about overstaying as it has happened now but from other peoples experiences on this forum overstayers have to be even more meticulous in the evidence provided.

When we did it we realised the 'marriage of convenience' was the most likely reason why we might get a refusal so put in a lot of evidence to show it wasn't.

We provided

About 15 letters from family and friends saying how they knew us, that they supported the marriage and mentioning any particilar event where we had all been together.

Lots of photgraphs in a album all with descriptions. I imaging they didn't even bother looking at pictures on a CD!

Example of invites to the wedding.

All receipts for the wedding and rings.

Wedding acceptence cards from families and friends.

Cards sent to each other.

Names on each others car insurance.

A letter from us explaining how and where we met, why we are together and what are plans are for the future, both if and if not a visa was granted.

Club handbook showing we had joint membership.

From your list you have not provided much to prove the marriage is genuine and although some may say the ECO has been harsh, they really do have to be convinced.

Don't know about appeals but as the EEA family application is free I would seriously consider trying to get more evidence together and perhaps organising it a way that shows you realise how important this part of the application is.

Post by **John** » Tue May 09, 2006 2:20 pm

Para 320(11) of the Immigration Rules reads :-

failure to observe the time limit or conditions attached to any grant of leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom

-: which of course is factually correct, but certainly not an absolute bar to getting into the UK ever again.

Any use by the ECO of anything in para 320 is not good.

The marriage of convenience bit! I agree with ILM, if you have submitted nothing regarding the actual marriage, well let's just say that would not have helped.

You might not appreciate this comment at this point in time but your next application will need to be a lot better if you want to succeed. Indeed, "go overboard" and prove without the slightest doubt that the marriage is real, and not a marriage of convenience.

Don't appeal against the refusal ... do submit a fresh application for an EEA Family Permit as soon as there is masses of evidence available to support the application.

Given that the application is going to be for an EEA Family Permit, rather than a spouse visa, you have better rights thanks to the EU/EEA legislation. However, as you have found out, that does not mean that such Permit is issued automatically.

Hope it ends up well ... in the end.

neko · Post by **neko** » Wed May 10, 2006 9:49 am

Hi Ilm and John, thank you for your advises!
I'll consider about this well and let you guys know,
what happen later.
Thank you!!!!

Jeff Albright · Post by **Jeff Albright** » Thu May 11, 2006 5:05 pm

ilm wrote: some may say the ECO has been harsh, they really do have to be convinced.

They do not have to be convinced, they only need to be satisfied on the "balance of probabilities" in the immigration jargon. To be able to get a higher probability that their marriage was genuine, a lot more evidence should have been provided in support of that application. Previous "Overstaying" automatically reduces the probability casting on each piece of evidence, as you correctly noted.

garth · Post by **garth** » Fri May 19, 2006 12:26 pm

taken from the italian embassy website in tokyo:

WAYS TO BECOME AN ITALIAN CITIZEN

Marriage to an Italian citizen;

The requirements include:

legal residence in Italy for at least 6 months after marriage or 3 years of matrimony if residing abroad;

valid marriage certificate;

absence of criminal record;

absence of impediments associated with national security.

Applications for citizenship are to be addressed to the Ministry of the Interior and presented to the Prefecture in the Province of residence, if residing in Italy, or the diplomatic-consular authorities if residing abroad.

You mentioned you could live in Italy, so why don't you and your wife live in italy and then she can naturalise as an italian citizen which will make things easier ...

neko · Post by **neko** » Tue May 23, 2006 1:50 pm

Hi

We dicided to appeal for refusal of EEA family permit from Italy,
but I have some questions about the appeal.

These are the grounds for appeal;

1. That the decision breaches rights you have as an EEA National
or member of such a person's family under Community Treaties
relating to entry or to residence in the United Kingdom;

2. That the decision is otherwise not in accordance with the law;

3. That the decision is unlawful because it racially discriminates against you;

4. That the decision is unlawful because it is incompatible with your rights under the European Convention on Human Rights;

and this is our situation;
I'm Italian man, married to Japanese woman.
My wife overstayed in the UK for 4 years, no criminal record or deportation. We've come to Japan and got married last month,
got interviewed for EEA family permit but were refused, even though we provided documents such as bank statements, house contract which showed we lived in a same address for 1 year and half, and pictures from 2 years since.
The refusal says it is a marriage of convenience.

On which of the above four grounds do we have to appeal?
Which of our rights have been violated by the refusal?
Please give us an advise!
Thank you.

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Tue May 23, 2006 2:07 pm

I'm not an expert on appeals, but surely you should attempt to rebut the ECO's statement that he/she believes your marriage to be one of convenience, givne that this was the reason for refusal?

Post by **John** » Tue May 23, 2006 2:23 pm

I would say, don't appeal ... make a fresh applications! You will get a decision far quicker that way. The (re)-application is of course free!

neko wrote:....... but I am satisfied that it is a marriage of convenience

The new application needs to go out of its way to prove that is not the case. And the mere passage of time since the marriage will help.

Go for it!

neko · Post by **neko** » Thu May 25, 2006 12:17 pm

Hi,
If I don't appeal, how long do we have to wait for a new application of the same EEA family permit?
............... and they would notice the refusal stamp in the passport, wouldn't they?

Post by **John** » Thu May 25, 2006 12:28 pm

You can submit another application at any time.

Given that the VAF1 application form asks such questions, of course they would know about the previous application.

The point is this ... an appeal will take many months to decide ... a further application could lead to success very much quicker than that.

If these were "paid for" applications we were talking about, well then, appeal .... but EEA Permit applications are free!

But ensure your supporting evidence counters the reason for rejection last time.

neko · Post by **neko** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:01 am

Hello, everybody! I am NEKO's wife.
Thank you so much for giving us a good advice last year, it was very helpful!!

but, we have not sorted out a visa problem, I would like to ask some questions again. Could you help us?

I married to an Italian boyfriend in Japan last year, but my application for EEA Family Permit was rejected, because of my overstaying in the UK for 3 years and half and UK embassy thought it was a marriage of convenience.

We've been in Italy since June 2006, and we would like to apply for EEA again, because we don't like a life in here..............
I think we can show the UK embassy that we are still together because we are real couple! and of course, we'll prepare lots of documents to prove that it wasn't a marriage of convenience.

but problem is, my husband gets some income from a little internet business, but he doesn't have a JOB, his parents support us.
I think this is a not very good situation to apply for EEA, and the UK embassy might think that we are real couple but husband can not support his wife in the UK and refuse again..........
What do you think about it?

When we were in the UK, my husband went to work from recruit agency, it wasn't a full time and everyday job, but had no problem for a living, and he was suppose to go back to the same job.

Do you think he has to get a job in here, and show them a payslip?

and one more question,
I got a Permit to stay in Italy valid until 2010, is this valid to enter the UK?
or Do I have to wait till I get a Permanent visa in Italy? or I have to apply for EEA Family Permit to go back to the UK anyway?

Could you guys give us any advice??
Thank you very much!
Grazie!

Neko's wife

sakura · Post by **sakura** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:03 am

neko wrote:Hello, everybody! I am NEKO's wife.
Thank you so much for giving us a good advice last year, it was very helpful!!

but, we have not sorted out a visa problem, I would like to ask some questions again. Could you help us?

I married to an Italian boyfriend in Japan last year, but my application for EEA Family Permit was rejected, because of my overstaying in the UK for 3 years and half and UK embassy thought it was a marriage of convenience.

We've been in Italy since June 2006, and we would like to apply for EEA again, because we don't like a life in here..............
I think we can show the UK embassy that we are still together because we are real couple! and of course, we'll prepare lots of documents to prove that it wasn't a marriage of convenience.

but problem is, my husband gets some income from a little internet business, but he doesn't have a JOB, his parents support us.
I think this is a not very good situation to apply for EEA, and the UK embassy might think that we are real couple but husband can not support his wife in the UK and refuse again..........
What do you think about it?

When we were in the UK, my husband went to work from recruit agency, it wasn't a full time and everyday job, but had no problem for a living, and he was suppose to go back to the same job.

Do you think he has to get a job in here, and show them a payslip?

and one more question,
I got a Permit to stay in Italy valid until 2010, is this valid to enter the UK?
or Do I have to wait till I get a Permanent visa in Italy? or I have to apply for EEA Family Permit to go back to the UK anyway?

Could you guys give us any advice??
Thank you very much!
Grazie!

Neko's wife

Your Italian permit is no use in the UK. Why have you not applied for Italian citizenship? Have you tried, and it's not possible?

neko · Post by **neko** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:51 am

Hello, Sakura!
Thank you for your reply.

I heard that I will have a right to apply for Permanent visa, after 3 years from marriage. So, another a year and half to go, and maybe another 6 months to receive the visa! but we are already stressed out so much living here, we stil have our belongings in the UK, we would like to go back if we can, or bring back our stuff at least.

I would like to know,

Should my husband get a job in Italy for EEA?

Has anyone got a defferent opinion?

Thank you

Docterror · Post by **Docterror** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:28 am

If your Italian husband does not have enough resources to prove that he can be economically self-sufficient in the UK, then he could consider coming here and sort out that problem so that you do not get refused again.

If that is not an option, then he may need to find a work there in Italy or have a substantial amount stashed up in a bank to prove the self-sufficincy requirement. An EEAFP as the family member of a 'Jobseeker' can also be attempted, but due to the pervious refusal, I would not strongly suggest such a course of action.

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Overstaying in the UK but getting married with Italian.

Overstaying in the UK but getting married with Italian.