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5 years for ILR rule implemented

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nonothing
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Post by nonothing » Fri May 12, 2006 12:14 pm

supertiger wrote:According to our statistics (http://www.vbsi.org.uk/uploads/Docs/MP_Stats.htm ) only 57 MPs are contacted out of 646. That's no wonder the minister can say "only a small number of individuals"... The figure may be too conservative as they are only recorded when anyone feedback to the VBSI or discussion boards. but it may show that still the majority of them are left uncontacted. And in some areas victims are scattered so 200 people will write to 1 MP while some areas isolated - it is like election we need to get hold each of them! therefore, is it possible to send all rest MPs an email from the name of VBSI? They have a responsibity to reply. In that way we can guarantee all of them are on board...

Nonothing, could you check the poll on VBSI website seems doesn;t work...
VBSI is writing a letter to all the MPs in the name of VBSI. the letters are expected to be sent in the form of both email and hardcopy in next week or so.

i'll report the problem of the poll on VBSI website to the forum Administrator. but can you specify the problem, because it seems working for me? cheers.

nonothing
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Post by nonothing » Fri May 12, 2006 12:18 pm

supertiger wrote:Many people in their early 4 years are not bothered, it affects most of those in the last year. So let's say 10k, how many have we seen? Christine Lee got aroudn 1,000 names on pertition, the online one has < 500 so far. the minister has the reason to say "small number of people". That;s why I am urging VSBI to send emails to all rest MPs, ask for support and sign EDMs. If we can get 50 or 100 names it would be a different story. Forget about "small number of people", HO is exactly "small number of people"!
in 2004, about 140K got their ILR, 42K of them are employment-related grants. these are official figures.

TotalZone
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Post by TotalZone » Fri May 12, 2006 12:21 pm

I received a reply today from my MP Mr.Ed Vaizey (MP for Wantage, Oxfordshire - Conservative).
Below is the exact text from the letter..

Many Thanks for your email. I agree with the points your make and have written to the Home secretary on your behalf asking for his comments on the queries you raise.
I have not signed EDMs 1992 and 1912 as I am finding out more about them before I do so.
Yours Sincerely,

nonothing
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Post by nonothing » Fri May 12, 2006 12:21 pm

RobinLondon wrote:The actual Hansard post is the following:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... column_314

However, I would suggest following the transcripts of the debates and/or ministerial statements that are posted every day to watch for developments in this case. We should probably all become more of UK politics anyway.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... hansrd.htm

Hope this helps!
thanks, robin. yes, it does help.

nonothing
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Re: Quizzed in the Commons

Post by nonothing » Fri May 12, 2006 12:42 pm

RobinLondon wrote:Mr. McNulty: An assessment has been made based on the number of in-country work related applications for settlement received each year. This indicates that around 45,000 applicants may be affected by the change and will now have to wait a further year for settlement. This estimate has been made subject to certain assumptions; for instance, that applicants who are eligible will apply for settlement at the earliest opportunity, and that the broad pattern of applications will remain the same as before.
it figure is definitely incorrect. and even though it was correct, should it be regarded as "a small numer"?

100K+ affected, no impact? there're potential 50K-70K votes for politicians up for grab! :P

ILR Stats Table 2000-2004

http://www.vbsi.org.uk/index.php?page=i ... _2000-2004
http://vbsi.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12
Last edited by nonothing on Fri May 12, 2006 1:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.

first2last4
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Re: Quizzed in the Commons

Post by first2last4 » Fri May 12, 2006 12:57 pm

nonothing wrote:
RobinLondon wrote:Mr. McNulty: An assessment has been made based on the number of in-country work related applications for settlement received each year. This indicates that around 45,000 applicants may be affected by the change and will now have to wait a further year for settlement. This estimate has been made subject to certain assumptions; for instance, that applicants who are eligible will apply for settlement at the earliest opportunity, and that the broad pattern of applications will remain the same as before.
it figure is definitely incorrect. and even though it was correct, should it be regarded as "a small numer"?
I hate Tony............... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Knowledge which is concealed is lost -Hadith

supertiger
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Post by supertiger » Fri May 12, 2006 2:21 pm

in 2004, about 140K got their ILR, 42K of them are employment-related grants. these are official figures.
Far more asylums got ILR than employment related. What are HO doing? Controlling the boader?! http://www.vbsi.org.uk/index.php?page=i ... _2000-2004
Last edited by supertiger on Fri May 12, 2006 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nonothing
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Post by nonothing » Fri May 12, 2006 2:31 pm

supertiger wrote:
in 2004, about 140K got their ILR, 42K of them are employment-related grants. these are official figures.
Far more asylums got ILR than employment related. What are they doing?http://www.vbsi.org.uk/index.php?page=i ... _2000-2004
yes, that's what they're doing.

guess what? during 03/04/2006 to 02/04/2007, there would be 90K got ILR, employment-related zero and asylum 50K. :D
Last edited by nonothing on Fri May 12, 2006 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

supertiger
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Post by supertiger » Fri May 12, 2006 2:35 pm

[quote="nonothing"
VBSI is writing a letter to all the MPs in the name of VBSI. the letters are expected to be sent in the form of both email and hardcopy in next week or so.
Thanks Nonothing!

i'll report the problem of the poll on VBSI website to the forum Administrator. but can you specify the problem, because it seems working for me? cheers.
My fault, didn;t notice it requires a log in ID so now registered and voted.

supertiger
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Post by supertiger » Fri May 12, 2006 3:52 pm

quote="nonothing"
VBSI is writing a letter to all the MPs in the name of VBSI. the letters are expected to be sent in the form of both email and hardcopy in next week or so.
If you think it might be a weakness as the letter is not sent from a specific person in that area, maybe can include some quantitative data, e.g. the online petition or other, to make them aware that we are not making stories, and they may pay more attention by seeing so many real names and comments... fyi

tvt
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Post by tvt » Fri May 12, 2006 3:58 pm

The number of people affected is 42,000 * 4 years = 168,000

To this you should add spouses and dependents , I guess there are more than 250,000 affected.
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sowhat
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Post by sowhat » Fri May 12, 2006 4:01 pm

tvt wrote:The number of people affected is 42,000 * 4 years = 168,000

To this you should add spouses and dependents , I guess there are more than 250,000 affected.
42,000 should include dependants I guess...

supertiger
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Post by supertiger » Fri May 12, 2006 4:04 pm

tvt wrote:The number of people affected is 42,000 * 4 years = 168,000

To this you should add spouses and dependents , I guess there are more than 250,000 affected.
I think the 42k already includes spouses and dependents. but there are ripple effects to other family members who are even not waiting for settling. but these are intangible.

tvt
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Post by tvt » Fri May 12, 2006 4:36 pm

I think that in all immigration applications (exc. naturalisation) only main applicants are counted.
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tvt
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Post by tvt » Fri May 12, 2006 4:38 pm

In any case I assume the people concerned will not become very keen labour voters.
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nonothing
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Post by nonothing » Fri May 12, 2006 4:58 pm

the 42k deos include dependents. spouses and dependants count 20k

RobinLondon
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You're right

Post by RobinLondon » Fri May 12, 2006 4:59 pm

I decidedly did not vote Labour in the recent local elections. Serves them right.

nonothing
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Post by nonothing » Fri May 12, 2006 5:17 pm

supertiger wrote:
quote="nonothing"
VBSI is writing a letter to all the MPs in the name of VBSI. the letters are expected to be sent in the form of both email and hardcopy in next week or so.
If you think it might be a weakness as the letter is not sent from a specific person in that area, maybe can include some quantitative data, e.g. the online petition or other, to make them aware that we are not making stories, and they may pay more attention by seeing so many real names and comments... fyi
thanks for your suggestion, ST. i've already forwarded it to the VBSI team.

supertiger
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Post by supertiger » Fri May 12, 2006 7:25 pm

The sumer recess date of common this year is 25 Jul - 9 Oct. So we need to speed our pace from now on till end of Jul.


http://www.parliament.uk/faq/recess.cfm

supertiger
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Post by supertiger » Fri May 12, 2006 9:03 pm

joseph.DJ@558.net 发表于: 12 May 2006, 18:47


here is Chistine's comment to Mcnulty:


Changes in the settlement rules
The government must recognise that although the Chinese community is small, the majority of them are businessmen or workers, therefore proportionally the effects of your proposals is larger on the Chinese community. The lack of consultation is reflected in the changes in the settlement rules.
You claim that you consulted extensively on many elements contained in the paper, but did not receive any negative response on the changes. I believe there is no response because they did not know, not because the changes do not affect them. The Chinese community are in fact the most affected. As a group, their immigration position has been worsened and made less secure because they no longer have the ability to integrate until after a full 6 years when they qualify for naturalisation to be a British Citizen. Their status within the British society has been made less secure because they are present in the UK without the same rights as others. The lack of equality of status does not serve to inspire confidence for them.

The new system is preventing the integration of migrants as well as accumulating more ways of controlling them. The changes also mean that it is more difficult for migrants to make investments in the country. Business investors will therefore be less likely to expand their businesses because every move they make on their business will need to be approved by the Home Office. There was nothing wrong with the old system, why do you think that the new qualifying period will benefit those setting up businesses? And why is it more realistic?

We thank you for sympathising with our feeling of surprise over the settlement changes but must part with your view that people are not affected. For example, children of business and workers are affected by the change because they may be applying for university as a home student after 4 years previously. The changes made will not affect the allocation of university places but it will delay them going to university. Regarding mortgages to buy a house, this is a milestone in any migrant lives in terms of integration in the host country that is to be settled and in one’s own home. Business and workers would have planned their lives in anticipation of the time they fulfil their 4 year period. However, with the changes to the settlement criteria their plans have been disrupted which is especially troubling for those who are close to fulfilling their 4 years.

The change is also unwelcoming to potential newcomers to the UK because the Government shows lack of care to its migrants’ views and feelings. The lack of consultation sends out the message that Government is prone to changing the law whenever without taking into account the effect on its migrant workers.

The EU directives are not preventing a member state from granting settlement after 4 years and yet for whatever reason, the Government have decided to part from this and change it to 5 years and to implement it with a retrospective effect. We do not understand this. In reference to a letter sent to you by Chris Randall from the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association, it is unreasonable and unjust to change the length of stay for which work permits can be granted from 4 years to 5 years for those already granted work permits or visas for the other work or business related categories. It gives the impression that they are far from hoping to attract economic migrants to the UK, the underlying message is that their status will never be secure, hardly an attractive option for someone planning where their future may lie.

You stated that the UK is committed to being an attractive destination for hard working and skilled people. I would like to ask how skilled are you proposing these workers be, could you please define ‘skilled’? I am sure you are aware of the fact that we also need unskilled workers.

I organised a conference on 8th April which addresses the new changes to the settlement criteria where numerous people discussed their grievances over the issue. The attendees were not only Chinese; there were Australians, Africans and Pakistanis. This conference demonstrated the hardships that the new criteria have caused. Highly skilled migrants also had their hardship cases which reflected that the impact is spread among the different tiers of workers.

Despite all this, we are delighted to hear that you are nevertheless ready to listen to us about any unintended hardships that are directly instigated by this change. I would like to arrange an urgent meeting with you on this issue which has in evidently affected many.


--------------------


joseph.DJ@558.net 发表于: 12 May 2006, 18:50


Here is Mcnulty reply regarding 4 to 5 year:

You also mention the effects of the change to the minimum qualifying period for settlement on those members of the Chinese community who are here for work-related reasons. The change does not affect anyone&icirc;–&cedil; right to remain and work in the UK. Anyone in employment with valid leave to remain should have no difficulty in completing the fifth year.

Changing the qualifying period to five years brings us in line with the residence criteria of other European countries. The Government does not feel that there are any benefits to be had by maintaining a different provision for the UK than applies elsewhere in the EU.

Your have also raised the point that, in contrast to other changes, this one is retrospective. The policy intention behind this change is to ensure that applicants for settlement in the UK have established a genuine link with the UK. There is no right time to make such a change and it is difficult to accept the argument that a particular group is worse off. The Government must be able to amend the Immigration Rules from time-to-time so that it can give effect to its policies.

As you point out, there will be a consequential effect for citizenship applications from those who are here in an employment-related capacity. Applicants for naturalisation have to have been settled in the UK for twelve months before they can apply for citizenship. This means that naturalisation applications will need to be made after six years in the UK instead of five. However, this compares favourably with practice in other countries.

http://lkcn.net/eubbs/index.php?showtopic=102162&st=480

rooi_ding
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Post by rooi_ding » Fri May 12, 2006 10:04 pm

Hi all

This is the link to the EU directive that I think the UK is supposed to be lining itself with. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 109:EN:NOT

This is the text section (below) on determining the length of stay. Although the UK and Ireland have chosen to exclude themselves from this directive The HO are still using it as a basis to determine the new 5 year period. What I what anyone to do is to shoot me down and tell me I am wrong because if this is how the 5 year period is determined then I should have qualified back in December 2003 I should be in the sun in Spain right now fanning myself with my UK Passport. As can plainly be seen the five year period is a combination of legal stay including half of that as a student. HELLO are we been taken for a ride or what………………………..Please someone tell me I am wrong so that I can calm myself down……….

Article 4
Duration of residence
1. Member States shall grant long-term resident status to third-country nationals who have resided legally and continuously within its territory for five years immediately prior to the submission of the relevant application.
2. Periods of residence for the reasons referred to in Article 3(2)(e) and (f) shall not be taken into account for the purposes of calculating the period referred to in paragraph 1.
Regarding the cases covered in Article 3(2)(a), where the third-country national concerned has acquired a title of residence which will enable him/her to be granted long-term resident status, only half of the periods of residence for study purposes or vocational training may be taken into account in the calculation of the period referred to in paragraph 1.
3. Periods of absence from the territory of the Member State concerned shall not interrupt the period referred to in paragraph 1 and shall be taken into account for its calculation where they are shorter than six consecutive months and do not exceed in total 10 months within the period referred to in paragraph 1.
In cases of specific or exceptional reasons of a temporary nature and in accordance with their national law, Member States may accept that a longer period of absence than that which is referred to in the first subparagraph shall not interrupt the period referred to in paragraph 1. In such cases Member States shall not take into account the relevant period of absence in the calculation of the period referred to in paragraph 1.
By way of derogation from the second subparagraph, Member States may take into account in the calculation of the total period referred to in paragraph 1 periods of absence relating to secondment for employment purposes, including the provision of cross-border services

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ILR 4to5

Post by Rohan » Fri May 12, 2006 10:29 pm

After seeing Mr.Mcnaulty's comments to Christine, I don't see anyway forward talking to him anymore. He ignores every point we are making and have absolutely no concerns about us. It looks like his line of answering will never change and he will never see the problem from our point of view. Even in the House of commons his attitude is quite arrogant from the way he deals with other MPs.

I think we have to trap him some other way. Any suggestions?

RSN

supertiger
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Post by supertiger » Sat May 13, 2006 8:08 am

France definitely counts the student years residing there during the 5 years to settle.

Yes i don;t think we can sway Tony McNulty by current lobbying, we keep raising our points but he's saying his. if we inisist lobbying we also need something to support, such as demonstration or if we have any investors can suspend of their big investment plans suspended due to the unsecure UK policy then the minister may get pressure from other chanels.

timefactor
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Post by timefactor » Sat May 13, 2006 11:25 am

From quoted below she *just* represents chinese community. IMHO she has to make the case more wider as we all extended trust and support.
supertiger wrote:joseph.DJ@558.net 发表于: 12 May 2006, 18:47


here is Chistine's comment to Mcnulty:


Changes in the settlement rules
The government must recognise that although the Chinese community is small, the majority of them are businessmen or workers, therefore proportionally the effects of your proposals is larger on the Chinese community. The lack of consultation is reflected in the changes in the settlement rules.
You claim that you consulted extensively on many elements contained in the paper, but did not receive any negative response on the changes. I believe there is no response because they did not know, not because the changes do not affect them. The Chinese community are in fact the most affected.

Hidden dragon
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VBSI

Post by Hidden dragon » Sat May 13, 2006 12:12 pm

She has her limitation at the operational level. This is why we need VBSI to form a platform that can join up efforts by different groups. If each community has got their own "CL" then the VBSI will be able to bridge them up and "make the case wider".

Nevertheless, your sugguestion is helpful and valuable to CL, the only difficulty is she has limited resource to organise a national campaign and represent all immigrants. The forming of VBSI by volunteers aims to fill this gap, but NOT without difficulty.

We will however press on.
timefactor wrote:From quoted below she *just* represents chinese community. IMHO she has to make the case more wider as we all extended trust and support.
supertiger wrote:joseph.DJ@558.net 发表于: 12 May 2006, 18:47


here is Chistine's comment to Mcnulty:


Changes in the settlement rules
The government must recognise that although the Chinese community is small, the majority of them are businessmen or workers, therefore proportionally the effects of your proposals is larger on the Chinese community. The lack of consultation is reflected in the changes in the settlement rules.
You claim that you consulted extensively on many elements contained in the paper, but did not receive any negative response on the changes. I believe there is no response because they did not know, not because the changes do not affect them. The Chinese community are in fact the most affected.
Trust and value ourselves, because we deserve it!

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