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It is interesting to note that he stated quite clearly that a new entrepreneur route would be implemented in April. But, concerning the new PSW rules, he said it would be announced 'within six weeks', or in the 'next couple of months'. I highly doubt there is some sort of PSW conspiracy going on, but I do wonder why he wouldn't have just said all changes will be announced in April. He was too quick to say April for the entrepreneur route while apparently purposely vague in giving a date for PSW. I sincerely hope they don't announce PSW restrictions before April.jlewisunh wrote:mist99 wrote:One interesting answer I heard from Damian Green is that he said the government is not legally obliged to give PSW to students already in the UK. However, he did not seem to be very confident to say so. He also mentioned that it would be about 'six weeks' before the new policy to be announced. So I expect the government to announce the policy in mid-March.
I think TA will be there and nothing less then 2 years is acceptable to us. We were promised 2 years psw visa and we want 2 years visa, end of the story.cruxifixo wrote:I listened to the clip and one interesting thing Damian Green said was that current student will be taken into consideration when the PSW visa changes are announced. I think transitional arrangement will be given and PSW visa will be shorten to 1 year.
Basically, he knows govt. is on wet wickets but he didn't want to admit that so all those stammering/pausing on air.mist99 wrote:One interesting answer I heard from Damian Green is that he said the government is not legally obliged to give PSW to students already in the UK. However, he did not seem to be very confident to say so. He also mentioned that it would be about 'six weeks' before the new policy to be announced. So I expect the government to announce the policy in mid-March.
Dis is one of series of questions (and his reponse(s)) put across to Damien Green on the proposed changes in student visa dated 25th of january and posted on the parliament website. I think the signs are getting positive at least for a transitional arrangement for existing students. But we need to be prepared though as d conservative hardly listen to people opinion or suggestions.Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether international students enrolled at UK institutions will be eligible to remain in the UK under tier 1 post-study work arrangements for two years after completion of their studies. [35875]
Damian Green: On 7 December, we published a public consultation—The Student Immigration System: A Consultation’. One of the proposals on which we are inviting views is what changes we should make to the tier 1 post study work route, as well as the timing of any changes and any transitional arrangements which may be necessary. We will announce our final decisions on the future shape of tier 4 in due course, following the closure of the consultation on 31 January. Those students in tier 4 of the points based system will, as now, be able to work in the UK after graduation by switching into tier 2, provided they meet the applicable requirements.
Its encouraging news and I agree that we need to be prepared!cruxifixo wrote:Dis is one of series of questions (and his reponse(s)) put across to Damien Green on the proposed changes in student visa dated 25th of january and posted on the parliament website. I think the signs are getting positive at least for a transitional arrangement for existing students. But we need to be prepared though as d conservative hardly listen to people opinion or suggestions.Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether international students enrolled at UK institutions will be eligible to remain in the UK under tier 1 post-study work arrangements for two years after completion of their studies. [35875]
Damian Green: On 7 December, we published a public consultation—The Student Immigration System: A Consultation’. One of the proposals on which we are inviting views is what changes we should make to the tier 1 post study work route, as well as the timing of any changes and any transitional arrangements which may be necessary. We will announce our final decisions on the future shape of tier 4 in due course, following the closure of the consultation on 31 January. Those students in tier 4 of the points based system will, as now, be able to work in the UK after graduation by switching into tier 2, provided they meet the applicable requirements.
I don't think it will take them 5-10 years to realise their mistake. I know they are dumb but not that much and I guess they will realise their mistake within 2-3 years.arsenal49 wrote:the govt. will realise the massive hole in their pocket in next 5-10 years when they will be getting only fraction of 12 billion from the industry, due to their draconian measures !
Precisely my point... straight out of uni, after finishing course, to tier 2 is very hard. Very few companies are willing to do that anyway for a grad. In reality, leaving just tier2 open means almost all, but very very few graduates stand no chance at all to get any kind of experience.luckylondon wrote:Its really tough for fresher to secure a job or switch into Tier-2 visa after their studies.
If let suppose there are some changes of getting job within last 4 moths of course but what will be the probability of company sponsoring you.
Lastly, ratio of students doing this task will be very less as compare to PSW.
Minister seems like talking nonsense at this moment, PSW is the bridge between tier 4 to proper working visa (tier1(hsmp), tier2(general)), If the coalition new changes suggest just direct entry to tier 2 from tier 4, tht's utterly bullshit.fibreman wrote:Precisely my point... straight out of uni, after finishing course, to tier 2 is very hard. Very few companies are willing to do that anyway for a grad. In reality, leaving just tier2 open means almost all, but very very few graduates stand no chance at all to get any kind of experience.luckylondon wrote:Its really tough for fresher to secure a job or switch into Tier-2 visa after their studies.
If let suppose there are some changes of getting job within last 4 moths of course but what will be the probability of company sponsoring you.
Lastly, ratio of students doing this task will be very less as compare to PSW.
Thus, comparing tier 2 to psw as in consultation is absurd. Once you start on psw, have soem experience etc. there is possibly a chance to switch to tier 2.
For now, lets make sure we have our TA... they are likely to close psw anyway for future.
yea it only makes sense for some TA for applicants this year in and outside the country.tusso wrote:jlewisunh wrote:I received this email reply from a visa consultant in London this morning:
'The UK authorities will announce a Statement of Intent mid February and provide further details of the changes to be implemented on 6th March.
However, I have attended a number of policy meetings recently and the UK Border Agency has only just closed its consultation on Tier 1 (PSW) and while it is clear the scheme is unlikely to continue in its current guise any changes should not impact on any applications filed before 5th April, either in or outside of the country.'
I have heard this same thing (that changes won't be implemented before April) from another registered rep at level 3 who works for a different service.
Of course this is not official, but it does seem logical, assuming some transitional arrangements are going to be put in place. Obviously for me, this is good news, as I am applying out of country on March 20th.
I doubt that all of a sudden starting in April they would just completely change the PSW scheme or completely take it away. Following the logic of the UKBA and what you just said I assume they will give TA for at least people applying this year
technically speaking, you weren't 'promised' anything. i understand your intent and i am with you that it should be extended to those currently on student visas...but, just to be fair about it, it wasn't a promise. the literature on ukba said the visa was to 'encourage' students to study in the uk. the psw policy notes say if you have the sufficient points then entry clearance will be granted, but entry clearance is just permission to get leave in a certain type of visa scheme...it isnt a promise that you WILL definitely be issued the visa, since just as the uk has the right to grant something with one hand, they have the right to take it away with the other. i think it's a dumb way to make law but im afraid that is the case.tall_funky wrote:Guys this is not about graduating this year or next year or next to next year or years beyond.
This must be about just and fair play, this must be about the universal value of fairness that we all preach all around the world.
We must get 2 years PSW as promised to us, nothing less nothing more.
jlewisunh wrote:technically speaking, you weren't 'promised' anything. i understand your intent and i am with you that it should be extended to those currently on student visas...but, just to be fair about it, it wasn't a promise. the literature on ukba said the visa was to 'encourage' students to study in the uk. the psw policy notes say if you have the sufficient points then entry clearance will be granted, but entry clearance is just permission to get leave in a certain type of visa scheme...it isnt a promise that you WILL definitely be issued the visa, since just as the uk has the right to grant something with one hand, they have the right to take it away with the other. i think it's a dumb way to make law but im afraid that is the case.tall_funky wrote:Guys this is not about graduating this year or next year or next to next year or years beyond.
This must be about just and fair play, this must be about the universal value of fairness that we all preach all around the world.
We must get 2 years PSW as promised to us, nothing less nothing more.
fahmad wrote:I think I am going to agree to a certain extent because indeed I did NOT SAY THEY HAVE TO PUT IN TRANSITIONAL ARRANGEMENTS although what I did say the courts through precedents did favour transitional arrangements. While they don't have to, it would be stupid not to because then they face legal challenges that heavily might favour one.PaperPusher wrote:The HSMP judicial review DOES NOT MEAN THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO PUT IN TRANSITIONAL ARRANGEMENTS. Please read it in conjunction with the 1971 Immigration Act, and the rest. You also need to look up "legitimate expectation" The case was won because they had a legitimate expectation that changes in the rules would not affect them. Why? well because they were told that changes in the rules would not affect current HSMP people.fahmad wrote:
This is true. The government can obviously take measures on any immigration issues, as at the end of the day it is the government that protects its sovereignity. However, if the JCWI did not act, the measure would have deemed lawful in the eyes of everyone i.e. they can do whatever they want, overnight. It is only because it was challenged in the courts, this decision has nullified the government's temporary cap; it did its action abruptly before going on proper channels i.e. through parliament etc.
Lesson learnt: We are not questioning what the government can or cannot do. It is the WAY how the government deals with taking such measure is the essence of it all. We think whilst the government can definitely abolish the PSW visa, we think the way they should do it i.e. providing transitional arrangements should be a fair-for-all deal.
We have to bear in mind, a judicial review on the HSMP programme also involved a similar nature of argument. The government definitely CAN prolong periods of eligibility for ILR from 4 to 5 years (or abolish the scheme, or do anything they want). However, the abrupt manner it took made the courts rule in favour of HSMP holders as it violated their rights; therefore those who were on the scheme prior to the announcement were allowed 4 years, whilst those after 5 years. (In no part of this arrangement there was a GUARANTEE those HSMP holders will get an ILR, they just qualify to apply for an ILR). The government made a retrospective move which put people in hardship hence why the courts ruled in favour.
Similarly, in the PSW case; Student visa holders who qualified were offered the PSW as an 'extension option' upon graduation from their qualifying programmes of study. This option was presented during the point of entry during their student visa. That means, a student would have, bearing that in mind, chose a post-study pathway that may have used this PSW option. No where did it say a student visa holder would GUARANTEE be given a PSW visa, but the option was nonetheless given. Therefore, following the HSMP precedent, we think those already in the UK under a student visa which qualifies for the PSW should have this option still rendered, whilst the government can of course take any measures on NEW applicants who are not given this option in the first instance.
The end verdict, if challenged in courts, come from the judicial system and not the executive branch of the system i.e the courts not the government. So, if ever the move is challenged in the courts, we should let the judiciary decide as any decision made by anyone besides them during the course of review would deem subjudice to the case.
No such promise has been made by the UK Border Agency to students, as you yourself concede.
Immigration Act, 1971 does not detail these clauses as an Act of Parliament. The Act only governs the system in general, not detailing the PBS. I read it but in case I missed out, please do point out : http://www.britishcitizen.info/IA1971.pdf. In governing this PSW visa category, the Immigration Act 1971 should be read with the Immigration Rules where the PBS is outlined clearly (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/polic ... es/part6a/).
Section 245V of the Immigration Rules clearly outlined the purpose of this route is to "encourage international graduates who have studied in the UK to stay on and do skilled or highly skilled work."
The word encourage here can be used in a court of law to argue that this visa category was presented to international students as an option upon entry to the UK under a qualifying UK student visa/Tier 4(General). This word 'encourage' also inclines towards to the positivity of the government / the UK in PROMOTING international students to take up this visa upon graduation of a qualifying course of study in the UK.
Further to these sections, it is explicitly outlined in the Immigration Rules that entry clearence is not disputed as long as satisfying sections 245W and 245X. No refusal unless the application does not meet these requirements.
On these grounds, whilst the government can do whatever they want (as they have been doing anyway i.e. temporary cap before parliament and then got themselves in hot soup upon judicial review), as affected parties we can (and have the legal right) to challenge this decision in the courts.
As students ALREADY on student visas, we are given this option and 'encouraged' in the Immigration Rules. Once the visa category has been abolished, section 245V,W,X,Y,Z,A will appear as DELETED. Once this has been done, then, new students who apply will no longer see the word ENCOURAGED or any sentence, and therefore they are in no way encouraged to spend 2 years of their post-study in the UK and in all sanity they would not make such plans either.
In all respect, any legal proceedings will definitely look at the loopholes to win a judgement - that's a clear fact in any case. Innocent until proven guilty not the other way around, not under English laws at least.
The government can definitely do anything they want, of course. That's why you have some country leaders serving war criminal charges because during their time in government, they 'can do whatever they want' but through a fair challenge in courts then we can really see if it is lawful or otherwise - based on moral and legal rights judgements of the independent judiciary.
On the other hand, they have a right to appeal too if they are not happy, right? We are not denying them of that right, either.
I rest my case. =)
Spot on, well done tusso!tusso wrote:Legal action is possible, take a look at this
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/s ... 415031&c=1
nothing new...we all knew things were headed this way. again we can only wait for the changes but i think it's a good chance nothing will change before April for anyone.anjum70 wrote:Please check the article
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... aduates.do
Point to note is :
The minister said that 38,000 overseas graduates had been allowed to remain in Britain in 2009, the last year for which figures are available, under the "post-study work" system which allows them to remain in this country for two years regardless of whether they are able to secure work here.
He added: "This is clearly an area where the current system is too generous.
"It's obviously a worry for any graduate looking for work in a very difficult jobs market and it seems to me that it is wrong to allow unfettered access to the jobs market to anyone from overseas.
"It is putting an unnecessary extra strain on our graduates. It is important that we have a proper, fair playing field for British graduates."
Mr Green also warned of widespread abuses of the student visa system via the sub degree courses offered by private further education colleges.
Examples included students allowed into Britain to study in London who had instead been found living and working in West Wales, and another case in which two migrants supposedly undergoing work placements in health and social care were instead discovered to be working as a cleaner for a pizza chain and as a hairdresser.
Plz comment on that