Irish woman with Albania partner since 2006 cann't get visa

[aonghusa]

Hi Everyone,
I am a 32 year old irish citizen. I lived in the UK for about 7 years and met my albania partner there in 2006. Unfortunately he was ther illegally, having visited his country i do understand why he took this route and forgave him. I returned home Dec 2006 as I was in the process of setting up a business before I met him. At the time I had no idea how hard (no impossible) it would be for him to visit me here. I travelled as much as I could to the UK to visit him but this got very hard as a new business means working at least six days a week and very draining. Anyway I could not have a realtionship with an illegal person as it is not a good basis for a realtionship. In June 2009 he returned voluntarily to albania, to get him out of his illegal situation. In about Feb 2010 we applied for a short term visa for him to visit me in Ireland, I felt this would show our government that we were trying to do things right. I opted for the short term visa as felt it would be relatively to get and would show we could be trusted to abide be visa restriction. I expected the application to be refused those drop down menus do not allow the human side to be shown. We appealed it again, refused due to his immigration history, said no clear link to me as his refernce (despited dated photos from UK and albania), his poor job references. I cannot accept this as I am such a good irish citizen, a professional, an employer and have said I will support him. I have phoned every number i can find on immigration sites, written to politicians and seen two lawyers. I even appealed directly to DOJ got a copy and paste reply of his refusal letter and said only option reapply. All I get is reapply but ther is nothing new to say that hasn't been said already. The lawyer says a psoitive result in Zambrano case may help but thats still a long shot. Problem is cann't easily prove our realtionship, yet how many women fight so hard to give this a real go,is that in itself not evidence how serious I am about this. I don't want to just marry him so please our government, anyway that still wouldn't solve it. This week I was going to Italy to visit him (he can now vist any Schengen country visa free), I haven't seen him since Istanbul 2010,unfortunatel I got swine flu and couldn't go!! It just shows this long distance thing cannot go on forever, I am completely at a loss of what to do next. Any suggestions, I am really at a low with this. Help

[zafarzafar80]

Hi there,
i can understand how difficult the situation for u and for ur partner.
he will not get visit viss for ireland cause of his previous UK immigration history and refusals from previous irish visas.
if u both are serious so the best thing is to get married in Italy (preferably any EU country) and certify the marriage cert from the country's foreign office, this will lead u into a strong side of the mirror.
think about it , hope that would help

[aonghusa]

Thanks for your reply to me. I know everbody says just marry him but that will put such strain on everything. We are very serious about this, it is me saying no marriage as i want it to be a happy day in my life not doing it to please our government!! I feel another pressure we come under it will be "you forced me into this attidue" and I care too much about him for that. I'm not sure anybody can understand me. I'm not a big fan of marriage and even if George Cloney asked right now I'm not sure I'd say yes. Also my lawyer told me of a couple who planeed a 10k wedding only for immigration to turn up and say no to it!! We are thinking of reapplying again for a short term visa but a major issue is he has no job.Oh its a nightmare, anybody else with an albanian partner with any suggestions. I am trying to do everything right but honesty seems to earn no brownie points with our DOJ. We could always of done this the illegal route, naievely I said no, there has to be some just in the world, how wrong was I!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[zafarzafar80]

some time u have to make some tough decisions in life, and may be u have only one choice which is "marriage". u have no other card to play.
As far as my experience tells me he can't get a visit visa cause of he have no job, his previous immigration history and may be few of other factors.

I completely understand how u feel, but don't make it more worst for u nor for him, he is waiting for u in Albania in a vulnerable state.

Think 100 times before u make ur decision.
Best of luck

[WOLF DANCE]

That is really tough and I completely sympathize with you and your partner... And totally agree you should not get married just to get him a visa, as you said ; you never know if you do that a day might come when he threw it back at your face and say your forced me into it.

Only get married for the right reasons and he should be actually asking you about this and not the other way around.

Since you applied more than once for a short Visa and got refused; I would go for a D-long stay Visa and prove the relationship with:
1- Photo graphs (which you already supplied)
2- Any papers from UK that shows you were living in the same address.
3- Or any car shared insurance policy from UK...
4-if you do not have 2 and 3 then prove to them you lived in UK for those years (I would recommend at least 2 proves for each year, it could be 2 different bills, or a bill and council tax etc..)
Then this combined with the photo graphs should make it clear that you two were together at that time.
5- From reading your post it sounds you travelled to his home country to meet him; if so, and then include copy of the flight tickets and copy of your passport then explanation summary of all the trips you made so it makes it easier for them to understand...
6- If you have taken photographs while you visited him then include those.
Or if you went to the country side and stayed in a hotel then include the bill for that or anything else you did together and you have prove of it while you were there it would help.
7- The reason for D VISA application is that:
A- you have refusal for short saty for more than once.
B- You need to show him he is your partner and want to live with him for which you need a long stay visa and it is not in and out relationship for which you want him to stay over for several weeks..

By the way, the man did not commit any crime by staying illegally in UK, let's not forget the Irish suffering during the hard times and I was a little confused by your comment of( that you forgave him for that) but anyway who am I to judge

Hope this would help... and please do not give up hope. One more thing; I know you wrote to politcians and used lawyers.
But if it gets refused this time then make a copy of all the papers and applications with reference numbers then go and actually try to see your local TD to explain the situation and have him present it to Minister of Justice then appeal the decision.

Best of luck with it, and let us know how you get on

[aonghusa]

Thanks a mill for the info you gave me a really detailed reply, much appreciated. Just clarify it was my boyfriend who suggested marriage, I feel bad saying no but I believe marriage is for life and not for a visa. I mean that if things go wrong between us I would begin to resent us marrying and I don't want ever to blame him for this!!! I want it to be right for him and me and for all the right reasons. When I said I forgave him for being illegal in UK, I suppose I have just always tried to do things right in my life and was perhaps angry he did not harded to do the right thing. Now I see how bloddy hard doing the right thing is I understnad why doing it illegally was done. Exactly as you say so many Irish are abroad ilegally, this is a point I wrote to visa section/DOJ. It is hard to take this governemnt shipping us all out to emigrate and yet block our partners coming here, as if anybody would want to come here at this stage if not for love!! Your mail is so detailed sounds like you really know what you are talking about. I did actually contact a TD, basically I was told lie better!!!!I even contacte newspapers they didn't seem to want to know, I guess alot of Irish people just don't want anymore foreigners in here. I think perhaps you are right with the idea of going for long term visa, my lawyer says that but she has no hope of its success unless Zambra case is successsful, basically I am being discriminated because I have not exercised my Eu Treaty rights!! Even if it is suceesful she says proving a defacto relationship is next to impossible. Well thanks so much Ive thought about most things you've said but good to have somebody else say these things to me!! Thanks

[aa123]

The long term visa is called unmarried partner visa but not sure of the chances of getting that from albania.You need to provide proof of living together for 2 years or more.

[aonghusa]

Exactly our problem, cann't prove living together. We met in UK, he is now in albania, 5 years of fighting this, we may not have bills in our name but if this situation doesn't break relationship nothing will. I cannot understand how the DOJ will not talk to me, this is almost what I am most furious about. They say we have no realtionship but won't talk to me for me to explain. The forms are like school MCQS and as for the appeal you do a your best to explain on paper, answer all the questions, nobody rings to check, despite fax number given, mobile, landline, email. How can these people make decisons on my life and not bother to take my call. A politician told me to stop trying to fight the system that I would never change it, but we pay these people. I run a business and would not dream of treating any customer as shabbily as the DOJ seem to think is appropriate to treat us. Sorry about the rant but I am a very fair person and cannot accept that a department of JUSTICE seems not to know the menaing of justice or decency

[aa123]

I feel your pain, you will get there in the end.I struggled to bring my partner to the uk he is also albanian but he is here now and its worth the fight.

[aonghusa]

I think UK is more open, at least they interview don't they? If I had of realised how difficult it would be to sort things in Ireland I would perhaps of stayed in Uk and got this sorted. My lawyer here told me as Irish in UK i would of had more right than me beibg here somehting about exercising EU rights!!! I happy you have him there now, any tips you can give me that would be great

[aa123]

Can you apply for unmarried partner visa if your from ireland? I would apply if your allowed let them refuse it and appeal the decision,and pray you get a nice judge.

Where did you apply for the visit visa?irish embassy in ireland?

The british embassy in tirana interview the majority of applicants think its standard across the world.

[aonghusa]

We had to apply to irish embassy in Greece, then this got forwarded to Ireland. I can apply for a long term term visa for him and explain in that he is my unmarried partner. Unfortunately no such interview process exists for visas to Ireland, I think the British system is alot fairer in this respect. I think we will have to go down the unmarried partners plea but as pointed out to me our proof is weak!! Do you think a lawyer is necessary for this application, I was quoted €1,000 to do it for me, if it sorted it I'd pay b ut even my lawyer was saying she thinks its a weak case. She said I could bring it alll the way to court but if I lost I could be liable for my costs and costs of state and because I work they could come after me for €30k which I cannot afford. Does him not having a job hamper greatly unmarried partner visa? Just so much going against us right now!!!!!

[walrusgumble]

Can you apply for unmarried partner visa if your from ireland? I would apply if your allowed let them refuse it and appeal the decision,and pray you get a nice judge.

Where did you apply for the visit visa?irish embassy in ireland?

The british embassy in tirana interview the majority of applicants think its standard across the world.

nice judge or no nice judge, they don't have the power to over rule the minister and discretion of the minister is envoked in only him/her. The , both Irish and ECHR laws are tough enough on couples who are married, never mind non married couples.(in immigration scenerio)

THe court can only rule if the minister failed to consider certain facts and documents provided by the applicant. Provided that the Minister has clearly noted same and given a clear and proportional written decision setting out why his/her immigration policy on behalf "of the good of the country" must out weigh those of the individual, and it falls within the law there maybe very little a judge could do in the context of the court proceedings.

applications based on unmarried partners, whilst they are now recongnised by the Department and legislation has been announced, you have no business making an application unless solid evidence of cohabitation is provided.

In the meantime, some sacrifice should be done, eg heading over for a while. I know its a huge commitment on all grounds, whether other family and financial commitments etc at least you will have an idea if marriage is for ye or at least whether ye have a relationship. Keep loads of proofs. Secondly, more immediate, have you got any evidence that either of ye are actually financially supporting each other right now, each transferring money to each other?. Far better than transcripts of emails and letters and claims about many telephone calls.

[aonghusa]

Yes I'm getting the idea the DOJ wants to see cohabitation, this just isn't possible. It is my job that will support us so I just cann't pack up and leave for six months to a year. I know people think oh she's not comitted if she won't follow him anywhere, but realtionships don't survive on love alone. I am the breadwinner and its here I came build a finincial future for us. He cann't get a job in albania and I don't speak the language to try myself. If I walk out on my ability to earn then they will have another issue with me i.e. no money to support us when i want to come back!!! He finds it so hard to get a job as he lived illegally in uk for so long he has no refrences in his own name, he is extremely hard working, speaks greek, albania and englsih fluently. He is in Italy now with his brother as can be in any Schengen country legally as tourist but he hopes perhaps if he can find a job there papers might be possible, I understand Italy is much more open to albania immigrants. He has 3 months to try this then most go back home to his parents in albania. Has anybody ever had any luck with a TD, I know its not just me with problem, it amazing that we all just keep taking this crap. I'm giving it till March to try sort something in Italy, then will do visa through lawyer, then appeal, then will phone every TD I can get the number of!!!

[Obie]

You really should have tried and sorted something out for him when you were in the UK. It was not a wise decision for him to return back to Albania. It is good that you have been made to realise that people don't become undocumented alliens because they love to, it is circumstance that lead them to becoming one. A european citizen might not be able to understand this concept unless he or she is directly affected.

Provided you had gathered evidence of cohabitation in the UK, he would have qualified as a Permitted family member in Ireland on your return.

You are treated as an EEA national in Ireland on your return from UK, on condition you were exercising treaty rights there.

In this climate it is really difficult. I can't see any means by which he can join you except through marriage, or gathering of evidence over a lengthly period proving you are in a durable relationship.

I can't really see how Zambrono case can help you. You have not really met the substantive requirement for being a person considered to be in a durable relationship. Had you met those criteria, and the only reason for not qualifying is because you are an immobile Union Citizen, or you have a child, and the Albanian chap is the dad, then perhaps a positive ruling in that case would have had an impact.

I wish you all the best in any case.

[aonghusa]

[quote="Obie"]You really should have tried and sorted something out for him when you were in the UK. It was not a wise decision for him to return back to Albania. It is good that you have been made to realise that people don't become undocumented alliens because they love to, it is circumstance that lead them to becoming one.

Ouch, thats a bit harsh, we are both adults. I had no idea how much he messed his life up and how hard it would be to sort it out. As I have said I do understand why people do things ilegally and am sympathetic, as you say most Europeans have no idea as they don't grow up with these concerns. How could I have sorted his life out for him when I never realised quite how much it hard to be sorted out at the time. Yes I know now if I had come home and annoced lived in UK and invoked EUtreaty rights I might of had it sorted for him by now. But hind sight is 20/20 vision and there is nothing like experience as a teacher. He went back to ablania to make himself leagl, this was on advise from Department of Foreidh affair.Do I get no credit for 5years of application forms,appeal, lawyers, flights abroad............................ Does everybody think it is my job alone to sort this ?

[Irisheddy]

I don't know if this is any consolation but marriage does not guarantee sucess either because they will call it a marriage of convenience. There have been many recent examples of Nigerians getting married to Irish people, having children and still being deported.

So you are right not to get married. Imagine how frustrated you would feel if you did marry and he was still deported.

[Obie]

Ouch, thats a bit harsh, we are both adults.

I apologise if i came out harshly. It was never my intention to deliver my opinion in such way and manner.

I understand your intentions were sincere and genuine, and in an ideal world it should have been rewarded, but unfortunately in this day in age, the governement don't give credit for these things, they just seek to hinder family reunification at any cost, full stop.

I wish there is anyway i can think of in the Irish system that will enable him to live with you as a couple, but unfortunately i can't think of any, except of course he wishes to pursue a course of study, this will enable the pair of you to accrue enough time together, to support an application as a cohabiting partner, however this will be a costly move, which i am unsure you are prepared for. He will also have to be genuinely committed to the course. The positive side is, he might be able to work part time during term time to help towards cost, until he get back to his feet.

I wish you all the best for the future.

[aonghusa]

[quote="Obie"][quote="aonghusa"]

Ouch, thats a bit harsh, we are both adults.
[/quote]

I apologise if i came out harshly. It was never my intention to deliver my opinion in such way and manner.

Thanks for the apology Obie. I am am perhaps more sensitive to critism on this issue than I should be. If I had of realised for one minute how much starting to sort him out in the UK would of helped I would of done it. However at the start of the relationship I didn't know the difficulties ahead and well he probably didn't want to explain in case it would scare me off!!

As for your suggestion on study here i have looked into it. It isn't all that straight forward. I would be very happy to pay for a course for him that would give him a trade and a life after, but all accepted courses are a bit airy fairy. It's not that he isn't intelligent but has been out of education for 16 years so not sure if he could fully commited to the type of courses that are available. Also he wouldn't meet alot of the academic entry requiremnts. Thanks for the suggestion anyway.

[aonghusa]

Hope this would help... and please do not give up hope. One more thing; I know you wrote to politcians and used lawyers.
But if it gets refused this time then make a copy of all the papers and applications with reference numbers then go and actually try to see your local TD to explain the situation and have him present it to Minister of Justice then appeal the decision.

Best of luck with it, and let us know how you get on[/quote]

Thanks for advice a few months ago. I applied via Brophys solicitors for my partner to join me in Ireland under a defacto realationship. We sent in lots of documents like you suggested, all my bank statments, evidence I own a business, refrences, photos etc......... The application has been with the DOJ since 15th April so waiting nervously for a decision now. Fingers crossed.

[ImmigrationLawyer]

I can't understand why you wouldn't just get married if you are so serious about this. Do you have an objection to the institution of marriage?

[PAJOVE]

Wish you all the luck in the world. I have recently married my 7 yr partner. He was in the same position as yr fella. Differnce was that he got caught in the end. He was going to go back on his own accord in 2008 so we could marry then but we both chickened out because of the complications. Fair play it takes a strong person to go back and hand yr self in as an illegal. We are in the process of appling for a spouce visa (settlement) via my solicitor and I have been warned of the potential outcome, So i may possibly move out there.

Let me know how you get on... Good Luck.

[forgot]

u are here bitching about how te whole world turned on you and u are trying everything u can but nothing works and poor you, unfair world..

get married, u dont have to have a big ceremony in the church and the whole lot, just 'sort out the paperwork' and later if u want a real wedding u can have it here.

ur problem is u are trying to fight the power and proove them u can do it, it is an ego fight. but have some decency to yourself and ur partner who is currently screwewd because u are to cool to sign a piece of paper.

just dont think of it as a marriage but legalising ur relationship. please thik about it, i ment all this in a nicest, most constructive way, choice of word is a bit harsh just to make u think about it, sorry

[walrusgumble]

u are here bitching about how te whole world turned on you and u are trying everything u can but nothing works and poor you, unfair world..

get married, u dont have to have a big ceremony in the church and the whole lot, just 'sort out the paperwork' and later if u want a real wedding u can have it here.

ur problem is u are trying to fight the power and proove them u can do it, it is an ego fight. but have some decency to yourself and ur partner who is currently screwewd because u are to cool to sign a piece of paper.

just dont think of it as a marriage but legalising ur relationship. please thik about it, i ment all this in a nicest, most constructive way, choice of word is a bit harsh just to make u think about it, sorry

In part I would share your sentiment, in that the person has a choice, they should take or if not, quit whinging.

However, the last matter is exactly why the government take the approach it does ie marriage being used as a vechile solely for the purposes of immigration convenience, regardless of the strength of the relationship.

Some people don't see marriage in the same eyes as your self and actually value the sancity of the legal relationship.They actually take it seriously. I can assure you if a marriage registrar got word of this, there would be at least an attempt not to grant (unlikely to be successful) the couple a licence.

What you are forgetting is that if it does not work, whether for immigration purposes or their own personal purposes, there then lies a messy and costly avenue of divorce in order to allow the couple have the freedom to marry again. Some people also see the concept of marriage as ancient. So its more than "being too cool for school".

Have some decency? Marriage requires the consent and committal of both husband and wife. You have no right to suggest/put pressure on someone who clearly has reservations on marriage on some ridiculous moral decenc notion.

Marriage is far more than legalising one's relationship. THere are other avenues to take if they don't want to do this. The State are increasingly recongnising the concept of durable relationships and partnerships (well not legal per se) of hetrosexual couple.

[ImmigrationLawyer]

Some people don't see marriage in the same eyes as your self and actually value the sancity of the legal relationship.They actually take it seriously. I can assure you if a marriage registrar got word of this, there would be at least an attempt not to grant (unlikely to be successful) the couple a licence.

I don't know about this - see Judge Hogan's recent decision in Izmailovic's case: http://www.courts.ie/judgments.nsf/6681 ... ight=0,Ads

At para 30.- "It is clear, therefore, that the marriage of Ms. Izmailovic and Mr. Ads would have been a valid marriage so far as Irish law is concerned, even if it was a marriage of convenience. The Supreme Court’s decision in H. v. S. makes it clear that a marriage which was entered into for the purposes of facilitating immigration into a foreign state was still a valid one, even if (as in that case) the parties had no subsequent contact worth speaking of and never lived together as husband and wife. It must equally follow that a marriage contracted for the purposes of avoiding deportation from this State is nonetheless a valid marriage, assuming that there is no impediment to that marriage within the meaning of s.2 of the 2004 Act.

...
"s. 58 does not confer a free standing power of objection by reference, for example, to some supposed mental reservation on the part of the couple, such as that they were only marrying for immigration reasons. If that were the case then, by the same token, well meaning relatives could object to a proposed marriage on the ground, for example, the bride did not really love the groom and that she was only marrying him for financial reasons or because she simply wanted to escape from a difficult home environment. "