Irish Citizen to marry Non-EEA National - Residency Question

[scrudu]

Hi there,

After a very long drawn out and expensive process my fiancee (from Indonesia) has re-entered the country on a 3 month Visitors visa and we have secured a date with a Registry Office to marry in mid July. After we marry we intend to apply for permanent residency on the basis of marriage to an Irish Spouse for him to remain in the country.

I have spoken to the "Dept of Justice, Equality and Law Reform Helpdesk" numerous times about this and their advice for us is as follows:
1) Complete an applicaton letter and (Copies of passports & marriage Cert
2) Send this to the "Marriage to an Irish National Section, Dept of Justice, 13/14 Burgh Quay, D2"
3) Wait 14-16 months for this application to be processed

The advised that during this waiting period my then husband will have the right to remain, but not to work in Ireland.

I spoke to the "Immigrant Counil of Ireland", who advised me that due to recent changes in EU legislation (European Communities Free Movement of Persons - Regulations 2006), that we should:
1) Complete the EU_1 (Application for a Residence Card - Non-EEA family member resident in Ireland for more than 3 months) form
2) Send this to the "EU Treaty Rights Section, Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, Dept of Justice, 13/14 Burgh Quay, D2".
3) When 6 months had passed without response, we could complain to the European Commission about the delay in processing.

They advised that this would take upwards of 6 months to process and that the majority of cases do take upwards of 6 months to process.

Obviously, my fiancee does not relish the idea of sitting at home for the next 16 months unable to work, and considering the cost of living in Ireland currently, we do not look forward to living off the salary of 1 person to support 2 people.

We were advised of another option, which was for him to return home ot Indonesia after our marriage, and apply from there for a D-Spouse Visa. We were told that when this visa was granted (approx 8-12 wks), he could return to Ireland with full working rights. While this is a much quicker solution, it is also expensive as it involves flying back to Indonesia again. Also it means we will spend another few months apart straight after our marriage waiting for a visa for him to return.

I was wondering if anyone has had personal experience with trying to get their spouse a residence permit in Ireland. How long did it actually take? Is there anything we can do to speed up the process?

Any help or advice anyone could give would be very much appreciated!

[olajesu]

hello ,i understand your predicament it can be very frustrating,me and my wife are in a similar situation,she is british and i am nigerian we used to live in belgium with our three kids she got a job offer in limerick and we made a visa application to dept of justice in december 2005,till now we have not heard a decision,they are very rude on the phone and keep telling us different things every week,all i would advise is for you and your spouse to be patient and very strong as i have a feeling that dept of justice are not happy when they see mixed marraiages and they wld do anything to frusdtrate the relationship ,my wife left belgium on my advise 6 weeks ago to take up another job offer after loosing the first one so since i have not seen her or my kids and she found out there she is pregnant again>we told this to justice yet they are not sympathetic ,why dont you try the uk its less strainous. i wish you the very best .God bless you

[scrudu]

Dear Olajesu,

I'm very sorry to hear of your situation. And from my communications so far with the Dept of Justice here, I can agree with everything you say. So many times they have talked to me about "marriages of convenience" or people trying to "marry Irish citizens for visas", that it is quite obvious they do not look on mixed marriages very favourably. It is also quite clear that once I mention my fiancee is from a non-EEA country, red flags seem to go up, and they offer no assurances of any positive outcome.

I guess the fact that for years Ireland has only experienced Emigration and not Immigration, the Department is not very experienced in dealing with such situations. It still doesn't excuse the fact they:
a) are often quite rude and unfriendly,
b) regularly give conflicting information
c) do not provide sufficient consistent information on their websites to answer Immigration questions

My fiancee and I will probably have to leave here if the situation continues like this and move to another EU country. It's just a pretty sad state of affairs when a citizen of a country has to leave their homeland because that country will not accept their chosen life partner

I wish you and your wife the best of luck with your situation, and hope it is sorted out for you soon.

[JAJ]

My fiancee and I will probably have to leave here if the situation continues like this and move to another EU country. It's just a pretty sad state of affairs when a citizen of a country has to leave their homeland because that country will not accept their chosen life partner

If you do make that choice, you should consider whether there is a pathway to citizenship available. Not all EEA countries offer this (they have to offer residence to spouses of other EEA citizens, but no obligation exists to offer citizenship).

If you want to sponsor into the UK, as an Irish citizen you may be able to sponsor under normal UK rules rather than EEA rules. This has the advantage that your fiancee could get UK permanent resident status (Indefinite Leave to Remain) after 2 years (a bit more if arriving on a fiancee visa), rather than 5 years on an EEA Family Permit.
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk has information on UK visas.

Assuming you're not a British citizen, she would have to wait 5 years for British citizenship - however, the United Kingdom seems much more "geared up" to deal with new citizens than the Republic of Ireland.

Maybe move across the border to Northern Ireland?

[scrudu]

Thanks for the info JAJ,

We will of course consider very carefully before leaving Ireland. I realise that we may be jumping from "the firepan straight into the fire" if we do it too hastily.

I just hope that our situation can be figured out here sooner rather than later. It's just quite frustrating as the Immigration here cannot be contacted regarding any cases, or for advice. And the prospect of waiting 16 months for a visa here is simply untenable given the cost of living here.

[JAJ]

I just hope that our situation can be figured out here sooner rather than later. It's just quite frustrating as the Immigration here cannot be contacted regarding any cases, or for advice. And the prospect of waiting 16 months for a visa here is simply untenable given the cost of living here.

Have you contacted your Member of Parliament (or whatever MPs are called in the Republic of Ireland) for assistance in dealing with Immigration?

[scrudu]

Yes I wrote to 2 local TDs (Irish equivilant to MPs) who deal with Immigration issues in 2 different parties, one of whom is the current Minister for Justice and Law Reform (also responsible for the Immigration Department). I wrote requesting help when we were trying to get my fiancee's visa extended so he could stay in the country until our planned date of marriage.

One TD agreed to write a letter appealing that the Immigration Authorities allow my fiancee to stay. This letter was sent on to Immigration but received no response. The Minister also appealed on our behalf that his Department extend the visa. The Immigration Authorities ignored both letters of Appeal and did not grant the visa.

In the end my fiancee had to return home, and apply for a 2nd tourist visa to enter the country. This visa was granted and is the visa he has returned on now, so we can marry in July.

It seems that the Immigration people do not take outside influence (even from their own Minister) very seriously.

Perhaps I should get on to them again in the hope that they can be of some influence in this regard, but my hopes were pretty dashed by the lack of response by the Immigration Authorities with our the last efforts.

[RajeshBhosale]

hi,

I got my spouse visa in about 6 months and i applied from my home country(India).

The months of seperation is the worst part of all. But once you get the visa there wont be any issues with your fiancees immigration status, including his right to work in ireland. I am working full-time myself now.

My opinion is to go for the spouse visa (category D), cause once you get the visa , there wont be any more hassels after that.

Cheers.

[JAJ]

It seems that the Immigration people do not take outside influence (even from their own Minister) very seriously.

Perhaps I should get on to them again in the hope that they can be of some influence in this regard, but my hopes were pretty dashed by the lack of response by the Immigration Authorities with our the last efforts.

It is possible the system may be completely overwhelmed. It's your decision on how to proceed, however if you sponsor your fiancee into the United Kingdom and she eventually becomes a naturalised British citizen, then she could move back to the Republic of Ireland without needing any permits. You could naturalise too if you wished, and your (future) children would be dual citizens.

[scrudu]

To RajeshBhosale:
Wow, it took 6 months to process? That is indeed a long time! As it only took 8 weeks both times for the Tourist Visa application, I was hoping it would be a similar length of time for applying for a "D Spouse" visa

To Jaj:
Yes it is quite possible that the system is quite overwhelmed, but I think a lot of it has to do with
1. The Irish system is simply not used to dealing with immigration (previously it was usually only people emigrating from ireland). Proper developed procedures as are in place in UK/AU just haven't been implemented here yet.
2. There have been a number of cases of "marriages of convenience", and the Immigration Department is trying to clamp down on all marriage visas as a result.
3. As there has a been both a high number of Refugee visas granted, and an increasing number of immigrants coming to Ireland, there has been a sortof a public backlash, and cry for tighter measures.

All in all, but mainly because the process is not transparent, it's hard to know how to make them understand that ours is a genuine case.

I will check out the UK Immigration site and see if I as an Irish citizen am allowed to sponsor my (then) husband. Do you know how long it takes to become a naturalise British citizen? I know for Ireland it requires 5 subsequent years of residence in Ireland to apply.

[JAJ]

I will check out the UK Immigration site and see if I as an Irish citizen am allowed to sponsor my (then) husband. Do you know how long it takes to become a naturalise British citizen? I know for Ireland it requires 5 subsequent years of residence in Ireland to apply.

For Britain it's 5 years to naturalise, including 12 months of permanent residence. If you were to become a British citizen first, and were legally married, then it would be 3 years (for your spouse) with no minimum time to have permanent residence.

As an Irish citizen you can normally sponsor for a UK visa under normal UK rules (as an alternative to EEA rules). Although this is more expensive than the EEA route, it means permanent residence is available in 2 years - not 5 years which is the case for EEA.

Your partner will lose Indonesian citizenship upon becoming a British citizen (or Irish citizen) but that may not be a problem.

The residence requirement for Irish citizenship is reduced to 3 years for the spouse of an Irish citizen. But as I understand it the naturalisation system is overwhelmed too and applications take a long time to process, much longer than the UK. It could be completely different a few years down the line, depends how long it takes for the Irish to get a system in place that works.

[smalldog]

It's also worth noting that, when naturalising as an Irish citizen, the requirement for the spouse of an Irish citizen is 3 years residence in the island if Ireland, unlike for non-spouses where 5 years residence in the state of Ireland is required. So in theory, your future wife could live in Northern Ireland with a UK-issued EEA family permit and apply for naturalisation as an Irish citizen after 3 years. In practice though, I wouldn't count on it.