5 years for ILR rule implemented

chibuya · Post by **chibuya** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:56 pm

Should we all write in toour MPs to ask them to pay attendtion to this debate and express our concerns??

nonothing wrote:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... /stand.htm

Forthcoming Standing Committee Meetings
19-22 June 2006

Tuesday 20 June

NIGC Draft Budget (No. 2) (Northern Ireland) Order 2006, 4.00pm, Room 10
SC A Finance (No. 2) Bill (except Clauses Nos. 13 to 15, 26, 61, 91 and 106 and Schedule 14, and the new Clauses relating to the effect of provisions of the Bill on section 18 of the Inheritance Tax Act 1984), 10.30am & 4.30pm, Room 14
SC B Fraud Bill [Lords], 10.30am & 4.00pm, Room 11
SC D Company Law Reform Bill [Lords], 10.30am & 4.30pm, Room 12
SC E Compensation Bill [Lords], 4.30pm, Room 9
2nd DLSC Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules (HC 1016), 10.30am, Room 6
3rd DLSC Railways and Other Guided Transport Systems (Safety) Regulations 2006 ( S.I., 2006, No. 599), 10.30am, Room 16
4th DLSC Draft Contracting Out (Functions Relating to Child Support) Order 2006, 4.30pm, Room 6
6th DLSC Draft Army, Air Force and Naval Discipline Acts (Continuation) Order 2006, and the draft Courts - Martial (Prosecution Appeals) Order 2006, 4.30pm, Room 16

andhraguy · Post by **andhraguy** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:43 pm

tvt wrote:As a leading immigration lawyer told me, it is not by accident that the 4-5 year change is coincided with the new point based system.

The aim is to reduce the number of economic migrants qualifying for settlement so as to pick and choose only the ones who will bring substantial contribution to the UK.

Yes, this could be the idea of HO. I don't think they will ask all WP/HSMP holders to reapply for new visa. However they can link point system to ILR for all work related categories. When a person applies for ILR they will assess him agianst point system before granting ILR.

With that they can convey a strong message to british public that they are only allowing high skilled economic migrants to settle.

What do you guys think??

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:48 pm

andhraguy wrote:
tvt wrote:As a leading immigration lawyer told me, it is not by accident that the 4-5 year change is coincided with the new point based system.

The aim is to reduce the number of economic migrants qualifying for settlement so as to pick and choose only the ones who will bring substantial contribution to the UK.

Yes, this could be the idea of HO. I don't think they will ask all WP/HSMP holders to reapply for new visa. However they can link point system to ILR for all work related categories. When a person applies for ILR they will assess him agianst point system before granting ILR.

With that they can convey a strong message to british public that they are only allowing high skilled economic migrants to settle.

What do you guys think??

frankly speaking I have a little doubt about that they will apply point basesd system to us next year.

nonothing · Post by **nonothing** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:13 pm

the fact they did consult on it means it's possible. with 58% disagreement, they might not do it so harshly. but the possibility is still there.

MunneRaja · Post by **MunneRaja** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:11 am

Hi,

where did you get this information?

nonothing · Post by **nonothing** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:24 am

MunneRaja wrote:where did you get this information?

http://www.vbsi.org.uk/index.php?page=f ... nts_system

olisun · Post by **olisun** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:55 am

sowhat wrote: frankly speaking I have a little doubt about that they will apply point basesd system to us next year.

I think it will only apply to HSMP candidates for which I do support the govt. to some extent in this case.

I think "Highly Skilled" Migrant program has been too lenient especially in the work experience area.

After interviewing half a dozen HSMP candidates from the sub-continent(The interview was conducted along with others in my company) , we still wonder how these guys qualified for the HSMP visa... None of them could answer questions based on what's written on their CV...

One guy wrote in his CV he had setup the production servers in his last company and he was managing and supporting them.
When we questioned him further we found out that all he did was copy files across.

People who are really qualified will have no problems getting thru and it will filter out the candidates who shouldn't have been granted the visa in the first place.

This is just my thought, I hope I have not offended anyone

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:37 am

olisun wrote:
sowhat wrote: frankly speaking I have a little doubt about that they will apply point basesd system to us next year.
I think it will only apply to HSMP candidates for which I do support the govt. to some extent in this case.

I think "Highly Skilled" Migrant program has been too lenient especially in the work experience area.

After interviewing half a dozen HSMP candidates from the sub-continent(The interview was conducted along with others in my company) , we still wonder how these guys qualified for the HSMP visa... None of them could answer questions based on what's written on their CV...

One guy wrote in his CV he had setup the production servers in his last company and he was managing and supporting them.
When we questioned him further we found out that all he did was copy files across.

People who are really qualified will have no problems getting thru and it will filter out the candidates who shouldn't have been granted the visa in the first place.

This is just my thought, I hope I have not offended anyone

frankly speaking I find it a bit offensive that you base you opinion about HSMP visa holders on six interviews. Come on, it's not nice bashing people here for dubious reason.

rg1 · Post by **rg1** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:52 am

Off topic:
But it seems that HSMP is too easy for below 28 years people!

supertiger · Post by **supertiger** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:18 pm

anywhere can find results of that "2nd DLSC Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules (HC 1016), 10.30am, Room 6"?

Post by **John** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:27 pm

Well certainly not today, if it is the written record of proceedings that you are talking about. Possibly tomorrow.

The best you can hope for today is some mention in the news, but I doubt it.

olisun · Post by **olisun** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:41 pm

sowhat wrote:
olisun wrote:
sowhat wrote: frankly speaking I have a little doubt about that they will apply point basesd system to us next year.
I think it will only apply to HSMP candidates for which I do support the govt. to some extent in this case.

I think "Highly Skilled" Migrant program has been too lenient especially in the work experience area.

After interviewing half a dozen HSMP candidates from the sub-continent(The interview was conducted along with others in my company) , we still wonder how these guys qualified for the HSMP visa... None of them could answer questions based on what's written on their CV...

One guy wrote in his CV he had setup the production servers in his last company and he was managing and supporting them.
When we questioned him further we found out that all he did was copy files across.

People who are really qualified will have no problems getting thru and it will filter out the candidates who shouldn't have been granted the visa in the first place.

This is just my thought, I hope I have not offended anyone
frankly speaking I find it a bit offensive that you base you opinion about HSMP visa holders on six interviews. Come on, it's not nice bashing people here for dubious reason.

I don't think I have done any bashing on people for dubious reasons.. I have just posted our experience with HSMP candidates and also EU nationals.... And the HSMP candidates being the majority of the rejects.

Btw I forgot to mention that we have recurited quite a few people on HSMP visa and who we found were Highly skilled...

If you read my last statement, I have already mentioned, people who are highly skilled will have no problems.

timefactor · Post by **timefactor** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:09 pm

i do agree with this! i know at least 3 guys here on HSMP who works in local tescos / other supermarket. don't want to take offence but as OP said *too lenient especially in the work experience area. *

olisun wrote: I think it will only apply to HSMP candidates for which I do support the govt. to some extent in this case.

I think "Highly Skilled" Migrant program has been too lenient especially in the work experience area.

After interviewing half a dozen HSMP candidates from the sub-continent(The interview was conducted along with others in my company) , we still wonder how these guys qualified for the HSMP visa... None of them could answer questions based on what's written on their CV...

One guy wrote in his CV he had setup the production servers in his last company and he was managing and supporting them.
When we questioned him further we found out that all he did was copy files across.

People who are really qualified will have no problems getting thru and it will filter out the candidates who shouldn't have been granted the visa in the first place.

This is just my thought, I hope I have not offended anyone

BadPaul · Post by **BadPaul** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:02 pm

Hi all,

It seems to me we started to worry about things that might happen next year and forgot about the main topic - remove the retrospective element of the 4-5 years law NOW.

There is a possibility the HO has a hidden agenda on ILR and they can potentially try to stop some of us to get ILR next year on the points based system.

However, I would like to focus on getting the retrospective element removed NOW so I won't have to worry about any point based rules next year.

Is it time to stop talking and collectively take them to court?

I personally think this is the only way we are going to get the retrospective element removed.

What do you think?

Regards,

BP

chibuya · Post by **chibuya** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:43 pm

Andrew Dismore 's new EDM seems to be a new direction- which is to fight for a better transitional deal with HO- which require the people already hold WP/HMSP to apply under the old 4 years rule.

This will then effectively move the retrospective element.

However I think it is a big tenous to start the legal action only base on the retrosepctive legalisations.. Unless we have very strong prove , anyone could contribute the documents you got before the change of the rules ...

All in all a better angel to fight the battle may need to be considered?

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:51 pm

chibuya wrote:Andrew Dismore 's new EDM seems to be a new direction- which is to fight for a better transitional deal with HO- which require the people already hold WP/HMSP to apply under the old 4 years rule.

This will then effectively move the retrospective element.

However I think it is a big tenous to start the legal action only base on the retrosepctive legalisations.. Unless we have very strong prove , anyone could contribute the documents you got before the change of the rules ...

All in all a better angel to fight the battle may need to be considered?

I am quite pessimistic about EDMs. There are already 3 of them, but still the number of MPs signed them is very small. Also they are very much party based. The last one is mostly signed by Labour, while the previous is premdominately Lib-Dems.

first2last4 · Post by **first2last4** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:54 pm

Legal action is always the favoured aproach, without which HO will always be encouraged to implement unacceptable rules.......retrospectively

.....ILR from 4 - 5 retrospectively
(legal action here will discourage HO to implement more retrospective rules, else get ready for more...)
.....New point system retrospectively
.....Point system for ILR retrospectively...........

list can go on if we dont act now....

chibuya · Post by **chibuya** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:09 pm

I am not against legal actions but think we need to find a solid ground to sue the HO.. Retrosepctive element seems a bit too tenous arguement. The new provisions do not change someone's status with respect to 4 or 5 years ago. That is the true essence of retrospective legislation. Ie something you did then was OK but has now been made a crime - so you could go to prison now for something you did then. What has actually happened is people placed a reliance on a procedure that was available then to others (ie people who'd then been in the UK for 4 years) still being in place 4 years later. So rather than retrospectively changing their status, this change has simply changing the outcome of their decision. This may seem harsh - but my thinking is that to argue this point will only re-inforce those who already believe the point anyway - ie campaign supporters.

So if we are taking legal action - we need more solid ground to argue, and hard evidence. Otherwise it is so easy that HO argue that this change is ot retrorespctive( as many of us knew from the HO letter).

Second about the EDMs- it is not neccearly working but we need to keep asking more MP to sign it.

Third- more important we need to achieve the goal that to ensure this one year waiting time just' as simple as one year' , no other nasty plans going on the back of it.

Some informations I got from this website is very worrying
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/

This website state clearly that the goverment need to reduce the total number of work -related immigrants.

We need to be aware that something more shocking could be happening..

However I think the current direction to fight to againt the 4 to 5 changes is in accordance with this goal too.

So let us keep fighting!!

nonothing · Post by **nonothing** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:40 am

John wrote:It is proposed to hold a demonstration outside an Advice Bureau being held by Liam Byrne, MP for Birmingham Hodge Hill, and now the Immigration Minister.

Do you live in Hodge Hill constituency? If so could you please make yourself known.

You live in Birmingham but are not sure if you live in the Hodge Hill constituency? Click here and enter your postcode, and it will tell you.

john, i've forwarded your proposal to VBSI and CL. VBSI is working with CL again considering a special demo in LB's backyard. at the meanwhile CL is trying to set up a meeting with LB. we might need to see how the meeeting goes, before we decide how to dedicate the special event to LB. john, thanks a lot for your proposal, please keep in touch.

again, we still need people from Birmingham Hodge Hill step forward.

Post by **John** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:53 am

Supertiger wrote:anywhere can find results of that "2nd DLSC Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules (HC 1016), 10.30am, Room 6"?

The hearing was yesterday but at this moment in time the minutes are not available on the UK Parliament website.

However I have tracked down the webpage where it will be possible to click a link to those minutes when they appear :-

Delegated Legislation Standing Committee Debates

At the time of writing this the latest minutes are for a hearing which took place on Monday, two days ago, so it might be a further day or two before the minutes we seek are viewable.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:03 am

There seems to be some confusion here.....

Some people are suggesting that the actual application for ILR will be points-based whereas I've only ever seen an indication that the application for a work permit or HSMP will be points based and the criteria for ILR will remain the same (i.e. based on how long you've been here in settled status).

Also there seems to be lots of moaning about there being more emphasis on companies sponsoring people etc etc. However I thought the whole point of the points system was that people wouldn't have be sponsored by a company and could come here on their own merits without having to find a job first (similar to HSMP).

Any comments?

nonothing · Post by **nonothing** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:24 am

Dawie wrote:However I thought the whole point of the points system was that people wouldn't have be sponsored by a company and could come here on their own merits without having to find a job first (similar to HSMP).

that's only for tier 1 visa. and there're 5 tiers in the point-based system. tier 2 is for the people like current WP holders.

gunslinger · Post by **gunslinger** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:36 pm

Hi All

You can listen to the proceedings at the standing committee yesterday by visiting:

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/ > This Week >Tuesday > Committees> HoC Second Standing Committee on Delegated Legislation to consider the Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules (HC 1016)

Miss Oceania · Post by **Miss Oceania** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:49 pm

Does anyone know if they will try and apply the points system to those applying for ILR from an ancestry visa? If they do this, then I will be stuffed!

supertiger · Post by **supertiger** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:06 pm

Miss Oceania wrote:Does anyone know if they will try and apply the points system to those applying for ILR from an ancestry visa? If they do this, then I will be stuffed!

T1/T2 only apply to work/ investment related visas, and ancestral visa is not mentioned in any of the 5 tiers, so it should belong to "other category" and therefore safe, at least for the time being.

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

5 years for ILR rule implemented

Standing Committee