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dilmundesert wrote:I am a dual UK/Australian citizen looking for work in either Holland/ Belgium. I have a dependent child under 21 who has to to go to university therefore looking at a university in this area too.
(However he does not have uk or eu passport and does not qualify for one as he is an australian national).
Questions:
1. can he move with me ( from reading forums he can);
2. what will his residency status be in Holland or Belgium?- is he a permanent resident or is that different from a residency permit?
3. As my dependent, is he entitled to the same rights as any other eu citizen, (which from reading it seem so and this includes education).
4. Does this then mean I can pay the citizen (lower) fees for his university in Holland or Belgium?
Anyone know any good immigration consultants with a good reputation who specialize in EU citizens and dependent rights??
dilmundesert wrote:1. can he move with me ( from reading forums he can);2004/38/EC wrote:Article 2
Definitions
For the purposes of this Directive:
1. ‘Union citizen’ means any person having the nationality of a Member State;
2. ‘family member’ means:
(a) (...)
(b) (...)
(c) the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the spouse or partner as defined in point (b);
I think this means "yes", he can move with you.
dilmundesert wrote:2. what will his residency status be in Holland or Belgium?- is he a permanent resident or is that different from a residency permit?2004/38/EC wrote:Article 10
Issue of residence cards
1. The right of residence of family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be
evidenced by the issuing of a document called ‘Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizen’ no later than six
months from the date on which they submit the application. A
certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued
immediately.
The residency status is called "family member of a Union citizen".
Good luck with your move! All the best.dilmundesert wrote:3. As my dependent, is he entitled to the same rights as any other eu citizen, (which from reading it seem so and this includes education).
4. Does this then mean I can pay the citizen (lower) fees for his university in Holland or Belgium?
I think the answer is "yes" to both - he is entitled to the same as EU-citizens and has to pay the lower fees. However I don´t know the relevant law/paragraphs...
ca.funke wrote:Hi dilmundesert,
first of all welcome to the forum!
Next, I´d strongly advise you to change the topic of your thread to something meaningful, as the current topic title is not very enticing to make ppl read it.
Then I wonder: If you are a UK-citizen and the child is your son, why shouldn´t he qualify for UK-citizenship himself? Usually the status as UK-subject is passed with the blood or, if you aquire this status later in life, children are usually naturalised with their parents. (Just reciting my memory, please someone correct if I´m wrong)
Your questions as far as I can answer them:
dilmundesert wrote:1. can he move with me ( from reading forums he can);2004/38/EC wrote:Article 2
Definitions
For the purposes of this Directive:
1. ‘Union citizen’ means any person having the nationality of a Member State;
2. ‘family member’ means:
(a) (...)
(b) (...)
(c) the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the spouse or partner as defined in point (b);
I think this means "yes", he can move with you.dilmundesert wrote:2. what will his residency status be in Holland or Belgium?- is he a permanent resident or is that different from a residency permit?2004/38/EC wrote:Article 10
Issue of residence cards
1. The right of residence of family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be
evidenced by the issuing of a document called ‘Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizen’ no later than six
months from the date on which they submit the application. A
certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued
immediately.
The residency status is called "family member of a Union citizen".Good luck with your move! All the best.dilmundesert wrote:3. As my dependent, is he entitled to the same rights as any other eu citizen, (which from reading it seem so and this includes education).
4. Does this then mean I can pay the citizen (lower) fees for his university in Holland or Belgium?
I think the answer is "yes" to both - he is entitled to the same as EU-citizens and has to pay the lower fees. However I don´t know the relevant law/paragraphs...
You´re welcome, but please do change the title of your thread away from "urgent please getting very confused".dilmundesert wrote:Sincere thanks for both replies
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Basically, if you have a dependent or underage child, they can live with you in any EU country you are living in (except the UK, your home country).
As a resident they should be charged exactly the same fees as a citizen of the country where they are residing. It is not allowed to have a difference. Permanent residence can not be an issue.
If you have any problems, post here again and contact Solvit http://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/
In what way is what I wrote incorrect? They do have to charge the same fees for their citizens and for EU citizens and their families resident in the country. If they make distinctions, for instance based on how long somebody has been resident, then it has to also apply to their own citizens. The UK does this.86ti wrote:That's not quite right, see my answer above.Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:As a resident they should be charged exactly the same fees as a citizen of the country where they are residing. It is not allowed to have a difference. Permanent residence can not be an issue.
86ti wrote:4. See Article 24, 'Equal Treatment'. There may be, however, additional restrictions for home fees that equally apply for nationals, like residence requirements similar to what the UK has. Dutch student organisations should know that.
Exactly but that was not obvious from your original post. You merely said that 'it is not allowed to have a difference' but they are as per your underlined text. If the non-EEA in the UK would not fulfill the residence requirements (3 years in the EEA/Switzerland, I believe) then they would pay the higher fees.Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:In what way is what I wrote incorrect? They do have to charge the same fees for their citizens and for EU citizens and their families resident in the country. If they make distinctions, for instance based on how long somebody has been resident, then it has to also apply to their own citizens. The UK does this.86ti wrote:That's not quite right, see my answer above.Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:As a resident they should be charged exactly the same fees as a citizen of the country where they are residing. It is not allowed to have a difference. Permanent residence can not be an issue.
The UK tuition setup is that you have to be resident in the UK for 3 years before studying to get the local fees. That applies equally to British citizens, EEA citizens, family of EEA citizens, non-Europeans living in the UK with ILR, etc... So British citizens resident in NZ who move back to the UK to study would not pay local fees until they have the required 3 years of residence.86ti wrote:Exactly but that was not obvious from your original post. You merely said that 'it is not allowed to have a difference' but they are as per your underlined text. If the non-EEA in the UK would not fulfill the residence requirements (3 years in the EEA/Switzerland, I believe) then they would pay the higher fees.
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:The UK tuition setup is that you have to be resident in the UK for 3 years before studying to get the local fees. That applies equally to British citizens, EEA citizens, family of EEA citizens, non-Europeans living in the UK with ILR, etc... So British citizens resident in NZ who move back to the UK to study would not pay local fees until they have the required 3 years of residence.86ti wrote:Exactly but that was not obvious from your original post. You merely said that 'it is not allowed to have a difference' but they are as per your underlined text. If the non-EEA in the UK would not fulfill the residence requirements (3 years in the EEA/Switzerland, I believe) then they would pay the higher fees.
86ti wrote:Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:86ti wrote:Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:..... If the non-EEA in the UK would not fulfill the residence requirements (3 years in the EEA/Switzerland, I believe) then they would pay the higher fees.
No. The 3 year rule I referred to only applies for people studying at a UK university.dilmundesert wrote:If I am the UK citizen, but my dependent child is going straight from the middle east where we are currently expats, to live with me in Holland/Belgium where I will be working, (i.e.- child not even entering the UK), then are we still subject to the UK 3-year rule (based on what we would be subject to in the UK), regardless of which university we choose in Europe/ Holland/Belgium?
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:No. The 3 year rule I referred to only applies for people studying at a UK university.dilmundesert wrote:If I am the UK citizen, but my dependent child is going straight from the middle east where we are currently expats, to live with me in Holland/Belgium where I will be working, (i.e.- child not even entering the UK), then are we still subject to the UK 3-year rule (based on what we would be subject to in the UK), regardless of which university we choose in Europe/ Holland/Belgium?
Each EEA member state makes up their own rules/fees that apply to their own universities. The key thing is that they can not negatively discriminate against citizens of other EEA member states (or their family members). So a Dutch university can not charge you (or your family members) more because you come from the UK or from Romania.
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I have no idea about the Netherlands or Belgium. I doubt they do, but that is just a guess. You should be able to browse some dutch web sites, and I am sure a lot of the information is available in English.
And remember the rule: if fee conditions applies to citizens where the university is located, only then it can also apply for citizens from other EEA member states and their non-EEA families who wish to attend the university.
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I would definitely start to sort it out now. It may take some time.
I would start by contacting Solvit ( https://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/ ).
I, personally, would tend not to focus on what specific stamp or card your child "will" have if you are unclear or unsure. Stick to the facts, which in this case is that they are the "family member of an EU citizen who is (or will be) living in Belgium at the time". (Note that for this to make sense, I think your child will need to be living in the same country as you are, though there may be a NL/DE agreement about students moving back and forth).Compliance Study wrote:Administrative formalities (Article 9)
Article 9(1) provides that a Member States shall issue a residence card to family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State, where the planned period of residence is for more
than three months. This provision is correctly transposed by Article 42 §3 LAT., which disposes that
those family members shall be issued with a residence card (‘titre de séjour’) and will be enrolled in
the ‘registre des étrangers’.
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I am pretty sure this is what a Residence Card is called in Belgium...
From the Compliance Study at https://eumovement.wordpress.com/info-belgium/I, personally, would tend not to focus on what specific stamp or card your child "will" have if you are unclear or unsure. Stick to the facts, which in this case is that they are the "family member of an EU citizen who is (or will be) living in Belgium at the time". (Note that for this to make sense, I think your child will need to be living in the same country as you are, though there may be a NL/DE agreement about students moving back and forth).Compliance Study wrote:Administrative formalities (Article 9)
Article 9(1) provides that a Member States shall issue a residence card to family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State, where the planned period of residence is for more
than three months. This provision is correctly transposed by Article 42 §3 LAT., which disposes that
those family members shall be issued with a residence card (‘titre de séjour’) and will be enrolled in
the ‘registre des étrangers’.
Actually I think you may face a small timing issue. You need to arrive in Belgium, and then your child needs to apply for a Residence Card. If you are not self-sufficient, which I suspect you are, then you will also need to find a job before the Residence Card is applied for. Don't try to do this in the week before school starts!