non-eu dependent child university fees

[dilmundesert]

I am a dual UK/Australian citizen looking for work in either Holland/ Belgium. I have a dependent child under 21 who has to to go to university therefore looking at a university in this area too.
(However he does not have uk or eu passport and does not qualify for one as he is an australian national).

Questions:
1. can he move with me ( from reading forums he can);
2. what will his residency status be in Holland or Belgium?- is he a permanent resident or is that different from a residency permit?
3. As my dependent, is he entitled to the same rights as any other eu citizen, (which from reading it seem so and this includes education).
4. Does this then mean I can pay the citizen (lower) fees for his university in Holland or Belgium?

Anyone know any good immigration consultants with a good reputation who specialize in EU citizens and dependent rights??

[dilmundesert]

any comments guys, this is really urgent- there must be someone who knows how this all works, thanks

I am a dual UK/Australian citizen looking for work in either Holland/ Belgium. I have a dependent child under 21 who has to to go to university therefore looking at a university in this area too.
(However he does not have uk or eu passport and does not qualify for one as he is an australian national).

Questions:
1. can he move with me ( from reading forums he can);
2. what will his residency status be in Holland or Belgium?- is he a permanent resident or is that different from a residency permit?
3. As my dependent, is he entitled to the same rights as any other eu citizen, (which from reading it seem so and this includes education).
4. Does this then mean I can pay the citizen (lower) fees for his university in Holland or Belgium?

Anyone know any good immigration consultants with a good reputation who specialize in EU citizens and dependent rights??

[86ti]

http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/faq/fr ... _ec_en.pdf

[ca.funke]

Hi dilmundesert,

first of all welcome to the forum!

Next, >>I´d strongly advise you to change the topic of your thread to something meaningful, as the current topic title is not very enticing to make ppl read it<<.

Then I wonder: If you are a UK-citizen and the child is your son, why shouldn´t he qualify for UK-citizenship himself? Usually the status as UK-subject is passed with the blood or, if you aquire this status later in life, children are usually naturalised with their parents. (Just reciting my memory, please someone correct if I´m wrong)

Your questions as far as I can answer them:

1. can he move with me ( from reading forums he can);

Article 2
Definitions
For the purposes of this Directive:
1. ‘Union citizen’ means any person having the nationality of a Member State;
2. ‘family member’ means:
(a) (...)
(b) (...)
(c) the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the spouse or partner as defined in point (b);
I think this means "yes", he can move with you.

2. what will his residency status be in Holland or Belgium?- is he a permanent resident or is that different from a residency permit?

Article 10
Issue of residence cards
1. The right of residence of family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be
evidenced by the issuing of a document called ‘Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizen’ no later than six
months from the date on which they submit the application. A
certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued
immediately.
The residency status is called "family member of a Union citizen".

3. As my dependent, is he entitled to the same rights as any other eu citizen, (which from reading it seem so and this includes education).
4. Does this then mean I can pay the citizen (lower) fees for his university in Holland or Belgium?
I think the answer is "yes" to both - he is entitled to the same as EU-citizens and has to pay the lower fees. However I don´t know the relevant law/paragraphs...

Good luck with your move! All the best.

[dilmundesert]

Sincere thanks for both replies, yes uk acquired later in life with restrictions on children over 18.
re- item 4. thanks- I too cannot find any documentation supporting, so still googling away for something that is specific. I did get a reply from a university that says we will pay higher fees until he is a permanent resident...which is confusing because then a resident card is different?? Perhaps the university is wrong.

thanks for the warm welcome guys !

Hi dilmundesert,

first of all welcome to the forum!

Next, I´d strongly advise you to change the topic of your thread to something meaningful, as the current topic title is not very enticing to make ppl read it.

Then I wonder: If you are a UK-citizen and the child is your son, why shouldn´t he qualify for UK-citizenship himself? Usually the status as UK-subject is passed with the blood or, if you aquire this status later in life, children are usually naturalised with their parents. (Just reciting my memory, please someone correct if I´m wrong)

Your questions as far as I can answer them:

1. can he move with me ( from reading forums he can);

Article 2
Definitions
For the purposes of this Directive:
1. ‘Union citizen’ means any person having the nationality of a Member State;
2. ‘family member’ means:
(a) (...)
(b) (...)
(c) the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the spouse or partner as defined in point (b);
I think this means "yes", he can move with you.

2. what will his residency status be in Holland or Belgium?- is he a permanent resident or is that different from a residency permit?

Article 10
Issue of residence cards
1. The right of residence of family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State shall be
evidenced by the issuing of a document called ‘Residence card
of a family member of a Union citizen’ no later than six
months from the date on which they submit the application. A
certificate of application for the residence card shall be issued
immediately.
The residency status is called "family member of a Union citizen".

3. As my dependent, is he entitled to the same rights as any other eu citizen, (which from reading it seem so and this includes education).
4. Does this then mean I can pay the citizen (lower) fees for his university in Holland or Belgium?
I think the answer is "yes" to both - he is entitled to the same as EU-citizens and has to pay the lower fees. However I don´t know the relevant law/paragraphs...

Good luck with your move! All the best.

[ca.funke]

Sincere thanks for both replies

You´re welcome, but please do change the title of your thread away from "urgent please getting very confused".

See how and why, here:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 367#474367

[86ti]

4. See Article 24, 'Equal Treatment'. There may be, however, additional restrictions for home fees that equally apply for nationals, like residence requirements similar to what the UK has. Dutch student organisations should know that.

[dilmundesert]

brilliant, thanks for this info

4. See Article 24, 'Equal Treatment'. There may be, however, additional restrictions for home fees that equally apply for nationals, like residence requirements similar to what the UK has. Dutch student organisations should know that.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Basically, if you have a dependent or underage child, they can live with you in any EU country you are living in (except the UK, your home country).

As a resident they should be charged exactly the same fees as a citizen of the country where they are residing. It is not allowed to have a difference. Permanent residence can not be an issue.

If you have any problems, post here again and contact Solvit http://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/

[dilmundesert]

Thank you

Basically, if you have a dependent or underage child, they can live with you in any EU country you are living in (except the UK, your home country).

As a resident they should be charged exactly the same fees as a citizen of the country where they are residing. It is not allowed to have a difference. Permanent residence can not be an issue.

If you have any problems, post here again and contact Solvit http://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/

[86ti]

As a resident they should be charged exactly the same fees as a citizen of the country where they are residing. It is not allowed to have a difference. Permanent residence can not be an issue.

That's not quite right, see my answer above.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

As a resident they should be charged exactly the same fees as a citizen of the country where they are residing. It is not allowed to have a difference. Permanent residence can not be an issue.

That's not quite right, see my answer above.

In what way is what I wrote incorrect? They do have to charge the same fees for their citizens and for EU citizens and their families resident in the country. If they make distinctions, for instance based on how long somebody has been resident, then it has to also apply to their own citizens. The UK does this.

Your quote, reproduced below is also correct as far as I can see.

4. See Article 24, 'Equal Treatment'. There may be, however, additional restrictions for home fees that equally apply for nationals, like residence requirements similar to what the UK has. Dutch student organisations should know that.

[86ti]

As a resident they should be charged exactly the same fees as a citizen of the country where they are residing. It is not allowed to have a difference. Permanent residence can not be an issue.

That's not quite right, see my answer above.

In what way is what I wrote incorrect? They do have to charge the same fees for their citizens and for EU citizens and their families resident in the country. If they make distinctions, for instance based on how long somebody has been resident, then it has to also apply to their own citizens. The UK does this.

Exactly but that was not obvious from your original post. You merely said that 'it is not allowed to have a difference' but they are as per your underlined text. If the non-EEA in the UK would not fulfill the residence requirements (3 years in the EEA/Switzerland, I believe) then they would pay the higher fees.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Exactly but that was not obvious from your original post. You merely said that 'it is not allowed to have a difference' but they are as per your underlined text. If the non-EEA in the UK would not fulfill the residence requirements (3 years in the EEA/Switzerland, I believe) then they would pay the higher fees.

The UK tuition setup is that you have to be resident in the UK for 3 years before studying to get the local fees. That applies equally to British citizens, EEA citizens, family of EEA citizens, non-Europeans living in the UK with ILR, etc... So British citizens resident in NZ who move back to the UK to study would not pay local fees until they have the required 3 years of residence.

[dilmundesert]

does anyone know what the situation is for Holland or Belgium? is there a 3 year rule there too?

Pretty hard on expats returning for whatever reason to be told to pay these ridiculous fees in the uk.

Exactly but that was not obvious from your original post. You merely said that 'it is not allowed to have a difference' but they are as per your underlined text. If the non-EEA in the UK would not fulfill the residence requirements (3 years in the EEA/Switzerland, I believe) then they would pay the higher fees.

The UK tuition setup is that you have to be resident in the UK for 3 years before studying to get the local fees. That applies equally to British citizens, EEA citizens, family of EEA citizens, non-Europeans living in the UK with ILR, etc... So British citizens resident in NZ who move back to the UK to study would not pay local fees until they have the required 3 years of residence.

[dilmundesert]

If I am the UK citizen, but my dependent child is going straight from the middle east where we are currently expats, to live with me in Holland/Belgium where I will be working, (i.e.- child not even entering the UK), then are we still subject to the UK 3-year rule (based on what we would be subject to in the UK), regardless of which university we choose in Europe/ Holland/Belgium?

Very harsh if that's the case.

Surely we should be subject to what the european country's rules are for their own citizens, not what we 'inherit' from the UK rules.

or have I completely misunderstood your reply below?

..... If the non-EEA in the UK would not fulfill the residence requirements (3 years in the EEA/Switzerland, I believe) then they would pay the higher fees.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

If I am the UK citizen, but my dependent child is going straight from the middle east where we are currently expats, to live with me in Holland/Belgium where I will be working, (i.e.- child not even entering the UK), then are we still subject to the UK 3-year rule (based on what we would be subject to in the UK), regardless of which university we choose in Europe/ Holland/Belgium?

No. The 3 year rule I referred to only applies for people studying at a UK university.

Each EEA member state makes up their own rules/fees that apply to their own universities. The key thing is that they can not negatively discriminate against citizens of other EEA member states (or their family members). So a Dutch university can not charge you (or your family members) more because you come from the UK or from Romania.

[dilmundesert]

ok, thanks- do you perhaps know if Belgium or Holland apply anything like a 3-year rule on their own citizens/ expats returning from overseas?

This should then answer my question about whether I will be in for the high fees or low fees if I decide to send my dependent child to uni in either of these 2 countries.

If I am the UK citizen, but my dependent child is going straight from the middle east where we are currently expats, to live with me in Holland/Belgium where I will be working, (i.e.- child not even entering the UK), then are we still subject to the UK 3-year rule (based on what we would be subject to in the UK), regardless of which university we choose in Europe/ Holland/Belgium?

No. The 3 year rule I referred to only applies for people studying at a UK university.

Each EEA member state makes up their own rules/fees that apply to their own universities. The key thing is that they can not negatively discriminate against citizens of other EEA member states (or their family members). So a Dutch university can not charge you (or your family members) more because you come from the UK or from Romania.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I have no idea about the Netherlands or Belgium. I doubt they do, but that is just a guess. You should be able to browse some dutch web sites, and I am sure a lot of the information is available in English.

And remember the rule: if fee conditions applies to citizens where the university is located, only then it can also apply for citizens from other EEA member states and their non-EEA families who wish to attend the university.

[dilmundesert]

ok, thanks I'll keep on trawling the internet for info specific to Holland/Belgium ... have tried a couple of uni sites but all very fuzzy info at the moment from them, as it applies to our circumstance. A kinda catch-all reply without committing.

I have no idea about the Netherlands or Belgium. I doubt they do, but that is just a guess. You should be able to browse some dutch web sites, and I am sure a lot of the information is available in English.

And remember the rule: if fee conditions applies to citizens where the university is located, only then it can also apply for citizens from other EEA member states and their non-EEA families who wish to attend the university.

[dilmundesert]

ok guys this is the reply I got a couple of weeks ago: (my concern being I gave them all the information pertaining to eu rights but still they seem to be asking for higher fees). Would appreciate advice on the best response- should I enroll first and then only after enrolling challenge them....or should I be upfront now and try and get written confirmation of the lower fee? Am I being stupid trying to flush it out now ahead of time?

Their reply:


Dear xx,

According to our information, your son just needs to pay the high tuition fees. If your son has a permanent residency for a European country (for example Belgium or the UK) and lives in Belgium (or one of the other countries within the residence area) he is eligible to pay the lower fees.

Hopefully we've informed you sufficiently,

Yours Sincerely,
yy


to my question being:

Good Morning

My son plans to attend 'your university' as an undergraduate studying xx this September 2011.

I am a UK citizen and will be moving to and living in Belgium with my wife and son, who is not a UK citizen as he is over 18 and could not be included in our application for UK citizenship (he is an Australian citizen). However my understanding of non-EU family members rights are that, for dependents under 21, my son will have all the right to education access and benefits in the Netherlands.

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/citizens ... nts_en.htm

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/mo ... he_eu.html

"..... Members of your family, whatever their nationality, have the right to accompany you or to join you in your country of employment. Your family is defined as your spouse and your children who are under 21 years of age (or older if they are dependent on you) and their spouses, as well as your parents and your parents-in-law, if they are dependent on you..... If they wish to, your spouse, civil partner and children also have the right to work without restriction in your country of employment. You and your family members have the right to the same social benefits as the nationals of the host member state. This includes the right to education access and benefits......"

I would be pleased if you could confirm the tuition fees as they apply to our situation. We plan to visit but would like to clarify the above and confirm that we have understood the University's Fee Policy correctly.

Regards
xx

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I would definitely start to sort it out now. It may take some time.

I would start by contacting Solvit ( https://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/ ).

[dilmundesert]

I am going to spend a week or so trying to get something positive from them, before escalating, mainly to try and keep best relations with the contact person at the university.

After a couple more 'hospital passes' between various staff members it seems I am now speaking to a decision maker.

His reply as follows:
"Dear xx,

You query was forwarded to me by my fellow student dean.

The residence status at the start of the academic year is decisive for the rate of tuition fees. As you claim that you will be living in Belgium by then, please inform me what residence status your son will be having at that time, preferably accompanied by a digital copy of the full document.

If this is not yet possible, please indicate which of the attached documents is expected".... and then they have attached a pdf full of various belgium residency types....

Now firstly I told them I would be living in either Belgium or Holland, and
secondly, (from info I've received on this forum) the residency type of my son is the standard residency type he would receive as a non-eu dependent of a euro (uk) citizen). So why are they focused on the residency type.

Surely the law has governed the residency type which should be easy for them to look up and confirm back to me?

I am concerned I give them information from which I cannot 'recover'!

I would definitely start to sort it out now. It may take some time.

I would start by contacting Solvit ( https://eumovement.wordpress.com/help-eu-solvit/ ).

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I am pretty sure this is what a Residence Card is called in Belgium...

From the Compliance Study at https://eumovement.wordpress.com/info-belgium/

Administrative formalities (Article 9)
Article 9(1) provides that a Member States shall issue a residence card to family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State, where the planned period of residence is for more
than three months. This provision is correctly transposed by Article 42 §3 LAT., which disposes that
those family members shall be issued with a residence card (‘titre de séjour’) and will be enrolled in
the ‘registre des étrangers’.

I, personally, would tend not to focus on what specific stamp or card your child "will" have if you are unclear or unsure. Stick to the facts, which in this case is that they are the "family member of an EU citizen who is (or will be) living in Belgium at the time". (Note that for this to make sense, I think your child will need to be living in the same country as you are, though there may be a NL/DE agreement about students moving back and forth).

Actually I think you may face a small timing issue. You need to arrive in Belgium, and then your child needs to apply for a Residence Card. If you are not self-sufficient, which I suspect you are, then you will also need to find a job before the Residence Card is applied for. Don't try to do this in the week before school starts!

[dilmundesert]

ok thanks.
yes, I am worried about timing - May 1 to get university application in (start is september ) but I assume we can change address etc before the start date, after the application is sent in.

..... would you say 20-25,000 euro in a savings account would be acceptable as self sufficient?

I am pretty sure this is what a Residence Card is called in Belgium...

From the Compliance Study at https://eumovement.wordpress.com/info-belgium/

Administrative formalities (Article 9)
Article 9(1) provides that a Member States shall issue a residence card to family members of a Union
citizen who are not nationals of a Member State, where the planned period of residence is for more
than three months. This provision is correctly transposed by Article 42 §3 LAT., which disposes that
those family members shall be issued with a residence card (‘titre de séjour’) and will be enrolled in
the ‘registre des étrangers’.

I, personally, would tend not to focus on what specific stamp or card your child "will" have if you are unclear or unsure. Stick to the facts, which in this case is that they are the "family member of an EU citizen who is (or will be) living in Belgium at the time". (Note that for this to make sense, I think your child will need to be living in the same country as you are, though there may be a NL/DE agreement about students moving back and forth).

Actually I think you may face a small timing issue. You need to arrive in Belgium, and then your child needs to apply for a Residence Card. If you are not self-sufficient, which I suspect you are, then you will also need to find a job before the Residence Card is applied for. Don't try to do this in the week before school starts!