Immigration reforms and future of Tier 1 (PSW)

[tusso]

I agree with bobobo in some things...

Except in this area:

"Every country needs to look out for its own people first. I have seen loads of students misusing their right to work in the UK. I know of people who have got a PSW visa and are now working in John Lewis / Waitrose as CSA.....this job can be done by a Bristish / Eu citizen, and doesnt requrie a vis a national to saty back and do this job.

As much as you want to argue we all know how the immigration in UK has been abused over the last 5-6 years and it has created resentment against people, Hionestly when 2 in 10 UK graduates dont have a job why put the economy under pressure by giving out PSW visas to Visa Nationals."

First of all, and as pointed out before, there is no evidence of displacement. Second, as u quote anecdotal evidence about people doing low skilled jobs with PSW, I also know lots of people taking advantage of PSW by working for small and medium enterprises, which are rarely registered as Tier 2 Sponsors.

Also regarding resentment and wish of people for immigration is a massive generalisation. Recently Oxford Published a study about immigration and UK's citizens perspective on it... Basically it was found that there are major discrepancies in terms of WHO do people perceive are harmful immigrants... is it students? is it EU immigrants? asylum seekers etc.... So u cant really say its what people want if u don't really know what they think or their opinion about students etc...

Finally, yeah there are abuses in the immigration system but before tackling international students to fulfil an ARBITRARY election pledge, I think the UKBA should focus more on their processes to give visas to illegitimate students. After all, THEY are the ones who hand out visas to students that go to crap colleges... So for example in this case the highly trusted sponsor status was a good idea... Similarly, PSW could have been tightened in other ways but they should have given more time for a graduate to look for a job, at least 6 months after graduation....


As for going to court, its a tricky one... Yeah you are right, the HO can fairly argue that they gave TA of 1 year, and that at some point PSW would have to stop, plus then they could argue the year warning helps ppl graduating after April 2012 to look for a job earlier ( I dont agree with this but I'm playing the devils advocate).

Furthermore, you cant really sue your university, since the changes did not depend on them and all universities campaigned in favour of PSW to stay... I think the only point that might help people wanting to go to court is basing such thing on the fact that "Students had a legitimate expectation that PSW will be available when they finished their studies".... But then again HO can say "well yeah you can stay, but u just need an offer". So yeah its a tough one...

I read that the NUS international students campaign are going to a UKBA meeting with the Educational Sector just to address any concerns and they said they would campaign for PSW to remain for current students, but dont think this will work, the President (Christina Zhang) seems like a nice person but too naive in this area and her campaign seems pretty weak, I mean even Vince Cable nor others could fully persuade HO for a better PSW...

[Tier 4]

The sad thing is that you dont understand a very simple thing which is that many promises were made by the Universities that you could work after finishing your studies. They made a promise as per the Immigration rules that existed then, If these change you are in no position to sue either. As the universities did not explicitly say that you would get a PSW even if the Immigration rukes were to change...You should have read the small print I guess.....

Well, we are not in the position to sue because we don’t have resources; otherwise it’s a piece of cake case that can be win in no time.

You should attend some proper University or at least read a prospectus of one, there ain’t a small print.

Again the HO has given a TA of 1 year, you cant demand waht you would want. They can easily go to court and say we have given 1 years TA and that should suffice, They dont need to give TA to students who have been in the UK for 3years doing their undergrad

Well its not me saying, its MAC, cross-party home affair committee report, British council, MPs, all Universities, colleges plus last not least their own so-called consultation result which they ignore very insolently and rudely which is quite offensive by it self as well

Where did you get this idea....do you read the news....

Well no need to read the news, making cheap headline is an old tactic. Look around yourself, I seen many guys importing east European people for shame marriages, and HO issuing them spouse visas powerlessly because there is nothing they can do. Arresting few couples and making documentary in BBC is not even a half reality, those who want to settle here in any price knows very well there is no other way around.

Offer exists until stock lasts and they can change the rules shenever they want, you cant fight them for changing the rules

Pride come before a fall man, don’t say these words, or look at the history of their lost immigration cases.

Pardon my french but thats a childish statement to make when people are trying to have an intellectual conversation

None of us is having intellectual conversation here. Nevertheless only an honourable nation knows the dignity of its words and Britain has a long history of ………. anyways never mind.

Take it or Leave it but the changes are proposed for a reason and I know it might be hard to swallow this and you might feel cheated but at the end you need to abide by the Law of the Land.

No one is launching crusades here, and yes we can’t fight by law as well when law makers are thugs as well.

[bobobo]

Tusso - Partially agree with you mate, but again its a catch 22 situation and I reckon points can be argued at both ends. There could be 80% people who dont misuse PSw but the 20% that do give everyone a bad name. When you see someone working in Costa or Waitrose and find out they have a PSW you just think that this is misuse of the PSW visa, and tend to forget about the other 80%.

Tier4 - If you are so unhappy and fed up with UK then just leave and go back to where you came, I am sick and tired of people like you who bad mouth the country (You would kill to get a passport of)
Be a man many have been affectred by this but I havent seen so much neativity in any one and no one bad mouths UK So much......

Its time to say that people like me HATE to have peopel like you in this country....Unthankful Wretches...thats what you are....
We dont need Selfish people like you in this country...GO BACK

[Tier 4]

Tier4 - If you are so unhappy and fed up with UK then just leave and go back to where you came, I am sick and tired of people like you who bad mouth the country (You would kill to get a passport of)
Be a man many have been affectred by this but I havent seen so much neativity in any one and no one bad mouths UK So much......

Well, first of all learn some proper English with spellings.
If some one has spent their hard working money they will care only about their money, not about the whole country and political issues.

And second if you not the one affected by current changes then don’t waste your time here.

All the time I talk about PSW which stands for post study work, don’t know why on earth you bring passport here.

Its time to say that people like me HATE to have peopel like you in this country....Unthankful Wretches...thats what you are....
We dont need Selfish people like you in this country...GO BACK

Unthankful for what? I am the one who spend hot cash here and haven’t receive any thing back, don’t you think this country owe me thanks.
Since you are out of arguments and positive debate and getting too personal which is not the aim of this thread therefore I have to put a stop here.

[bobobo]

I guess you mean Brochure and I have the bad spellings....ahem!!!

Make a big broacher

This country owes you nothing you got your degree from UK in exchange for the cash you spent...WE DONT OWE YOU A LIVING....

Nobody is getting personal stop bad mouthing UK you are not the only one who has been affected by this.
I am affected with any immigration change, I dont want people coming and taking jobs in the UK and create problems for the British economy why should we bear your burden...If you came here not for a degree and for a job then my friend your intentions were wrong from the start!!!!!

[Tier 4]

I guess you mean Brochure and I have the bad spellings....ahem!!!

Seriously man you really need to improve you English.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Broacher

This country owes you nothing you got your degree from UK in exchange for the cash you spent...WE DONT OWE YOU A LIVING....

Obviously you don’t owe us a living but PSW.

Nobody is getting personal stop bad mouthing UK you are not the only one who has been affected by this.
I am affected with any immigration change, I dont want people coming and taking jobs in the UK and create problems for the British economy why should we bear your burden...If you came here not for a degree and for a job then my friend your intentions were wrong from the start!!!!!

You aren’t native dude, come on, the way you taking a piss ain’t British.

[tusso]

I dont want people coming and taking jobs in the UK and create problems for the British economy why should we bear your burden...If you came here not for a degree and for a job then my friend your intentions were wrong from the start!!!!!

Mate, while I agreed in earlier of your posts in terms of the difficulty of winning a legal battle against HO since they could counter any argument, I think you should go back and educate yourself a bit more regarding your last post.

That argument of migrants taking the jobs of British people is the typical xenophobic argument. You also must realize the vital economic and cultural importance of migrants into the UK, even this government knows it to a certain extent. Why do you think the Intra Company Transfers weren't capped and at the end of the day a new form of Tier 2 for students was still allowed?...

Haven't you realized that London is a massive hub for cultural diversity and Transnational Corporations?

You have to understand that the UK suffers from a massive shortage of domestic labour in areas of science and engineering, and if it wasn't for migrants coming to the UK and doing their research etc, the UK would enjoy less higher education reputation.... Even really low skilled jobs taken by immigrants, I bet you British workers wouldn't take those...

You wanna keep complaining that migrants steal your jobs? Well first go and complain how any person from the EU can come to the UK and easily take any job and enjoy any of the state benefits, which us from overseas do not enjoy.

I assume you are British and I get your anger when Tier 4 bashes the UK like that. Personally I love the UK and so far have enjoyed my experience at university and the fact of being able to get a degree from here... But you have to understand his frustration. For example, one applies to get an education from a good Uni, but nowadays having job experience is also crucial. So amongst other choices such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, you choose the UK due to the flexibility of finding a job... And midway through your course they restrict it? Its NOT the fact that the UK OWES us something, since as u said we paid for a degree and we got it... But I'd be pretty pissed off, and naturally vent it against the UK if the rules had been changed this way...

I was one of the lucky ones who will manage to get PSW before it closes but I tell you I was quite frustrated and stressed since the whole proposal of changes were announced... Cut some slack to people here...

[fibreman]

I guess it's over, guys... people will swarm to get psw now, and then it's over.

Doesn't seem as many are interested in court now.

[Aryan2013]

I don’t think, it is over, on the contrary, I think the real argument starts now and we must keep up the pressure for fairness i.e. TA for everyone.

If you look at it from legal/moral ground, this is a win for sure.
The only problem is how to contact all the students, who are being treated unfairly. However, if you look at the positive side, we have 365 days to mobilize our fellow students.

I would like to forward my argument on fairness by quoting a recent judgment:

“
The guiding principles upon which I should act are those which are to be found in the speech of Lord Mustill in R v Home Secretary, ex p. Doody [1994] 1 AC para 531 at page 560.
"What does fairness require in the present case? My Lords, I think it unnecessary to refer by name or to quote from, any of the often-cited authorities in which the courts have explained what is essentially an intuitive judgment. They are far too well known. From them, I derive that (1) Where an Act of Parliament confers an administrative power there is a presumption that it will be exercised in a manner which is fair in all the circumstances. (2) The standards of fairness are not immutable. They may change with the passage of time, both in the general and in their application to decisions of a particular type. (3) The principles of fairness are not to be applied by rote identically in every situation. What fairness demands is dependent on the context of the decision, and this is to be taken into account in all its aspects. (4) An essential feature of the context is that the statute which creates the discretion, as regards both its language and the shape of the legal and administrative system within which the decision is taken. (5) Fairness will very often require that a person who may be adversely affected by the decision will have an opportunity to make representations on his own behalf either before the decision is taken with a view to producing a favourable result; or after it is taken, with a view to procuring its modification; or both. (6) Since the person affected usually cannot make worthwhile representations without knowing what factors may weigh against his interests fairness will very often require that he is informed of the gist of the case which he has to answer."

“The content of the duty to act fairly in any given case must be judged against the Doody principles; policy or guidance published by UKBA cannot by itself resolve what constitutes the duty, one way or the other. “

“
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/856.html


On top of it, consider views expressed by Penningtons and also during UKBA consultation, only 6% were in favour of closing PSW.

I look forward to some arguments but not the xenophobic ones.

[Aryan2013]

People who think, Govt. is doing something about immigration may want to read this:

"It only applies to labour applications, themselves only 20% of the non-EU inflow – which in turn is a drop in the ocean of total inflow. These working visas are estimated to account for 5% of net migration, and that is a generous estimate: some studies put them at 1%. Then there are the exemptions: intercompany transfers are exempt, and those are historically the biggest share of workforce immigration from outside Europe. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ition-ukip

[ginger_beer]

does anybody else get the impression that all these measures on limiting migration are just posturing to gain support for the upcoming election ? am I overly optimistic to think that once it's over, things would settle down a little and some form of PSW might return again.. ? especially when student enrollment in september starts to decrease ..

[Tier 4]

Since lots of people in coming months are going to loose their right to remain in Britain with no intentions to going back home, is it not government increasing illicit settlers in this country which already hitting the number of above one million.

[skepticalgod]

Hey guys I have been an ardent reader on this forum & I agree that we should all keep our spirits high for fighting to get the TA.
However I believe in our endevour to do so we should also work sincerly in parallel towards getting a job( > 20000GBP) in the 4 months after graduation.
Pardon me if i am being an idealist but how hard would it really be to find a decent job in those 4 months? or
how can we predict the attitute of the recruiters would be when it comes to giving jobs to international students under the new immigration rules?
& If i am willing to bust my *ss, & put all my cards/ skills on the table will I assure myself a good job?

[arsenal49]

the thing is.. its not JUST about finding a job in 4 months. you need to:
1)get a job offer, AND
2) convince your employer to sponsor you , pretty much on a good faith. for example, right now, employers can 'test drive' your (graduate) expertise via psw for 6-12 months before deciding its worth the hassle to sponsor the international student. 4 months is just not enough!
3)All the time you will be running against the time!

thats why psw was so better to stay and look/work for job before moving into permanent role

but, employers do need people to work for them. if you have done a slightly technical degree then im sure your odds are already far better than the history graduate:)

[Aryan2013]

Let me be very brutal and honest with you!!!!

Hey guys I have been an ardent reader on this forum & I agree that we should all keep our spirits high for fighting to get the TA.
However I believe in our endevour to do so we should also work sincerly in parallel towards getting a job( > 20000GBP) in the 4 months after graduation.
Pardon me if i am being an idealist but how hard would it really be to find a decent job in those 4 months?

Next to Impossible and don't read it as I'm Possible, if you are not from Oxbridge or may be from top 5 UK Uni's.

how can we predict the attitute of the recruiters would be when it comes to giving jobs to international students under the new immigration rules?

They will not look into your CV, if you don't have work rights .i.e T2 is very very hard to get.

& If i am willing to bust my *ss, & put all my cards/ skills on the table will I assure myself a good job?

You can only put your cards, if you are given a chance!!!!

[ginger_beer]

indeed .. i hate to be pesimistic but what aryan2013 said is true ..

more often than not .. NO existing visa to work = NO interview, and your resume will just be binned straight away into the trash can. At least that's my observation from working overseas (in another developed country) previously.

I am in a fairly specialized technical field, have a couple of years of work experience and will graduate with a master's from one of the ancient universities (not oxbridge )in sept 2012 .. and i'm not even confident that i could find a job in the UK by then. This is given the limiting timeframe of only 4 months to find job, and the fact that the list of approved sponsors exclude a lot of SMEs that are more commonly found in my field. If it doesn't go well, then I don't mind leaving the UK and could always go to australia or new zealand .. but other people might feel 'cheated' by this recent development in psw

[fibreman]

indeed .. i hate to be pesimistic but what aryan2013 said is true ..

more often than not .. NO existing visa to work = NO interview, and your resume will just be binned straight away into the trash can. At least that's my observation from working overseas (in another developed country) previously.

I am in a fairly specialized technical field, have a couple of years of work experience and will graduate with a master's from one of the ancient universities (not oxbridge )in sept 2012 .. and i'm not even confident that i could find a job in the UK by then. This is given the limiting timeframe of only 4 months to find job, and the fact that the list of approved sponsors exclude a lot of SMEs that are more commonly found in my field. If it doesn't go well, then I don't mind leaving the UK and could always go to australia or new zealand .. but other people might feel 'cheated' by this recent development in psw

I can confirm this... There were like 10 companies that would even look at me w/o work visa, but chances of gettign those places are lottery like... and i'm from one of best unis...

rest of companies don't even consider you. I didn't bother making more apps for nothing.

Some save u time where u just have to click box "I have unlimited rights of work in UK etc..."

So, I will apply for psw in august and then I can go to iviews normally... chances of getting other jobs before student visa expires this way w/o psw are 1/ 1 000 000.

[fibreman]

the thing is.. its not JUST about finding a job in 4 months. you need to:
1)get a job offer, AND
2) convince your employer to sponsor you , pretty much on a good faith. for example, right now, employers can 'test drive' your (graduate) expertise via psw for 6-12 months before deciding its worth the hassle to sponsor the international student. 4 months is just not enough!
3)All the time you will be running against the time!

thats why psw was so better to stay and look/work for job before moving into permanent role

but, employers do need people to work for them. if you have done a slightly technical degree then im sure your odds are already far better than the history graduate:)

I agree... even if you are from Oxford, chances are converging to zero... trust me. And techies... I know local unemployed people from Imperial for instance.

As said, your degree etc. won't matter at all if you have no work visa, most just ignore you. Even if you are extremely lucky at getting an assesment centre, u may have 1 or so shots at it, it is still extremely unlikely, as you need a lot of luck to pass at first.

With psw, you can apply for smaller companies, wider range, and those where not 100 ppl apply for 1 place(!).

This removal of psw is equal to eviction of students after uni... their chances of finding a job are extremely slim. And I am being optimistic here, very much so, not to just say none as anything can happen, and you can wina lottery, who knows, lol. But those kind of chances, really.

[Simonas]

I got a simple questions (PSW For Dummies)

I am MA student, gonna graduate in September 2011, I am wondering if I can still apply for PSW visa? if yes, under which conditions?

thanks

[ginger_beer]

the answer is yes, under the normal condition now
congratulation !

[Tier 4]

Degree in Britain:
£ 11000
After you can’t stay in this country
No future in Britain
Changing restrictions on working hours.
Restriction on dependents
Changing rules and forms after every few month,
Extension fee increase thrice a year
Strict time limit on staying on student visa
No HSMP
Graduate then find a sponsored tier 2 job.
Black mailed by Tier 2 sponsors on daily basis
UKBA officer new power of inquiries on airport,

East European Bride:
£ 5000
Permission to full time work,
Just in 5 years eligible for PR,
Partly recourse to public funds,
Free to travel whenever you want,
And last not least if she is good looking then some thing money can’t buy.

[geriatrix]

This topic is being permanently closed now as despite gentle reminders in the past the discussion has continued to digress to off-topic discussions / chats, individual specific PSW queries, 1:1 sparring between members and (for some) a place to vent out frustrations as a result of the recent changes.

In summary

The current Post-Study Work route will be closed from April 2012.

Other than what is quoted below, statement of changes in Immigration Rules (HC 863 and HC 908) make no reference to (changes to) immigration rules for Tier 1 (PSW) category.

- That, if the applicant is claiming points for a qualification from a Scottish institution, the institution must be on the list of Education and Training Providers list which can be found on the Department of Business, innovation and Skills website, or hold a Sponsor licence under Tier 4 of the Points Based System;
- That, where the institution studied at is removed from one of the relevant lists, points will not be awarded for any award completed after the date the institution was removed from the relevant list.

Therefore, until any changes are announced by the govt. / UKBA, Tier 1 (PSW) category will continue to operate as it is until it finally closes in April 2012.