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So no problem as long as your son is under 21. When he reaches that age he will still qualify as a family member as long as he is dependent on you (financially). The same rules apply both for your initial move to the Netherlands and your subsequent move to the UK (after whatever the term of your contract is).2) "Family member" means:
(a) the spouse;
(c) the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the spouse
fysicus wrote:the answer is very simple. From directive 2004/38So no problem as long as your son is under 21. When he reaches that age he will still qualify as a family member as long as he is dependent on you (financially). The same rules apply both for your initial move to the Netherlands and your subsequent move to the UK (after whatever the term of your contract is).2) "Family member" means:
(a) the spouse;
(c) the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the spouse
After five years in UK under the EEA regulations your wife and son will acquire Permanent Residency (which is similar to ILR but legally a different concept). By then you can have a look into the rules for British Citizenship.
fysicus wrote:In the Netherlands, first thing to do is to get an address (i.e. accomodation), then go to the Gemeente (municipality), department Burgerzaken (Civil Affairs) and register yourselves there in the GBA (countrywide population register). Documents in English (like marriage and birth certificates) do not need to be translated into Dutch.
From the Gemeente you can request an extract of the details they have recorded about you in GBA; with this extract you have to register yourselves with IND (Immigration and Naturalisation Service) to get a bewijs van rechtmatig verblijf (proof of lawful residence), which is a sticker in your passport. You need to make an appointment first (via tel 0900 1234561) and it cost 43 euro (for non-EEA family members). Under EU regulations you have three months to sort out these administrative details, better of course to get it out of the way a.s.a.p.
You and your family will be exempt from civic integration requirements that foreigners in Holland are normally subject to. It is, however, still a good idea to learn Dutch to some extent.
You can apply for the EEA Family Permit earlier if you want: it is valid for six months and it is free of charge, like all other applications under EEA rules in the UK. Once you live in the UK, your wife and son apply for a Residence Card.
Everything is fairly straightforward, no need to hire expensive lawyers.
gb wrote:great- efficient and easy, - should the address be permanent? or can it be say a b&b or guesthouse? (until we have time to get our bearings and commit to a long term lease in the area).
fysicus wrote:In the Netherlands, first thing to do is to get an address (i.e. accomodation), then go to the Gemeente (municipality), department Burgerzaken (Civil Affairs) and register yourselves there in the GBA (countrywide population register). Documents in English (like marriage and birth certificates) do not need to be translated into Dutch.
From the Gemeente you can request an extract of the details they have recorded about you in GBA; with this extract you have to register yourselves with IND (Immigration and Naturalisation Service) to get a bewijs van rechtmatig verblijf (proof of lawful residence), which is a sticker in your passport. You need to make an appointment first (via tel 0900 1234561) and it cost 43 euro (for non-EEA family members). Under EU regulations you have three months to sort out these administrative details, better of course to get it out of the way a.s.a.p.
You and your family will be exempt from civic integration requirements that foreigners in Holland are normally subject to. It is, however, still a good idea to learn Dutch to some extent.
You can apply for the EEA Family Permit earlier if you want: it is valid for six months and it is free of charge, like all other applications under EEA rules in the UK. Once you live in the UK, your wife and son apply for a Residence Card.
Everything is fairly straightforward, no need to hire expensive lawyers.
I think a temporary address is acceptable; you are obliged by law to report any change of address anyway. But you can always ask first at the Civil Affairs department about such details.gb wrote:great- efficient and easy, - should the address be permanent? or can it be say a b&b or guesthouse? (until we have time to get our bearings and commit to a long term lease in the area).
Yes, that is perfectly possible, but I would never consider that in your case. Apart from the cost factor, the EEA route has an additional plus: the UK government cannot change the rules unilaterally!gb wrote:Just out of curiosity- can a Family Permit for the UK only include my son ( and my wife follow the 'more expensive, but shorter' Marriage Visa-ILR route) or MUST all members be included?
fysicus wrote:I think a temporary address is acceptable; you are obliged by law to report any change of address anyway. But you can always ask first at the Civil Affairs department about such details.gb wrote:great- efficient and easy, - should the address be permanent? or can it be say a b&b or guesthouse? (until we have time to get our bearings and commit to a long term lease in the area).
Yes, that is perfectly possible, but I would never consider that in your case. Apart from the cost factor, the EEA route has an additional plus: the UK government cannot change the rules unilaterally!gb wrote:Just out of curiosity- can a Family Permit for the UK only include my son ( and my wife follow the 'more expensive, but shorter' Marriage Visa-ILR route) or MUST all members be included?
Also, under EEA rules, your wife would retain the right of residence in the UK in unfortunate circumstances like divorce or your death (not the things you want to plan for now I assume).
gb wrote:Just out of curiosity- can a Family Permit for the UK only include my son ( and my wife follow the 'more expensive, but shorter' Marriage Visa-ILR route) or MUST all members be included?
last question related to my son: I assume this all works for the UK as long as he's under 21... so my questions are,fysicus wrote:Yes, that is perfectly possible, but I would never consider that in your case. Apart from the cost factor, the EEA route has an additional plus: the UK government cannot change the rules unilaterally!
Also, under EEA rules, your wife would retain the right of residence in the UK in unfortunate circumstances like divorce or your death (not the things you want to plan for now I assume).
yes a 'rolling' EEA FP sounds like a plan.Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I am also curious about the citizenship of your wife and your son. Is he your biological offspring?
Note that you generally need to have a job in the Netherlands, for the Singh rules (moving back to your home country from another EU member state) to apply. And when you move back to the UK, you have to intend to work.
Once you are working in the Netherlands, I would immediately apply for an EEA FP - it makes it easy for you to pop over for a weekend visit any time you want. You can then get a new EEA FP after the old one is expired. If at any point you decide to move back to the UK, you just go.
Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
Once you are working in the Netherlands, I would immediately apply for an EEA FP - it makes it easy for you to pop over for a weekend visit any time you want. You can then get a new EEA FP after the old one is expired. If at any point you decide to move back to the UK, you just go.
great, good to know there will not be too many more hoops to have to jump through, !fysicus wrote:No, your history is irrelevant.
When you register in the Netherlands, they will probably record your previous address. This is a purely administrative normal procedure (also for Dutch citizens) and will not affect the rights of yourself or your family.
fysicus wrote:No, your history is irrelevant.
When you register in the Netherlands, they will probably record your previous address. This is a purely administrative normal procedure (also for Dutch citizens) and will not affect the rights of yourself or your family.
I am unclear what you are trying to do and where. It makes it a little hard to answer your general questions.gb wrote:For me I see much more opportunity spending 6 months in the UK and 6 months in the Netherlands- one place for running a sole proprietorship/ freelancing, the other for doing a part time masters with say 20 hours freelancing.
Is this feasible and could I be considered resident in both countries? say I had an apartment in each country with electricity bills etc.
How would each respective country view this residency pattern?
Yes it not clearly stated because I hadn't thought it possible until I saw this thread, I mean maybe its still not possible but the opportunity/plan is:Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:gb,
I am unclear what you are trying to do and where. It makes it a little hard to answer your general questions.gb wrote:For me I see much more opportunity spending 6 months in the UK and 6 months in the Netherlands- one place for running a sole proprietorship/ freelancing, the other for doing a part time masters with say 20 hours freelancing.
Is this feasible and could I be considered resident in both countries? say I had an apartment in each country with electricity bills etc.
How would each respective country view this residency pattern?
Are you planning to live and have your children go to school in the Netherlands? Are you planning to spend 3 days a week in one country and 4 days a week in another? Who will be shuttling around on airplanes - just you or the whole family? Are you planning to live for 6 months in the Netherlands and then move to the UK?
yes, thanks, all points well made- clearly I haven't really got a grip on this- I was just caught up in the idea of being in two places during a year and the potential opportunities of doing so.Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:I am not sure if your plan makes sense, but lets discuss...
First off - to get low cost tuition in UK universities, you have to have been resident in the UK for the preceding 3 years. That applies to you, to all Europeans, and to your family if they are entering on the basis of European law. So that may be a non starter.
What is your goal? To live near your kids while they go to University? To establish them and then go off somewhere else, e.g. the UK? Or to move everyone as soon as possible to the UK?
It would not be enough to arrive in the NL, establish a consulting business the next day, register the family as family members of an EU citizen the following day, and then fly off to the UK to study/work on the weekend. I am not sure that would be enough to establish yourself in the Netherlands, and I am not sure the UK would see that you are covered by Singh when you try to being the family with you to the UK.
Note that having a flat in the UK might count AGAINST your story of having exercised treaty rights in the NL if you then try to move the family to the UK on the basis of Singh. More specifically, it certainly will not help your application.
Finally a matter of housekeeping. A "Residence Card" is what you apply for when you are resident in the country if you are the non-EU family member of an EU citizen. Since they kids have NZ passports, they will not require a visa before arriving in the Netherlands. The "EEA Family Permit" is the UK visa issued to non-EU family member of an EU citizen before they arrive. Once they are in the UK, and you are working, they will need to apply for a Residence Card.
Note also that it does not matter how you got your UK citizenship, whether you speak English, whether you have ever met an Englishman, whether you celebrate or mourn the coming wedding, or whether you hate those Europeans... All that matters is that you are a British citizen who is moving to another EU member state and wants to exercise treaty rights...
So, officially all non-EU family entering under EU law need an EEA FP. But there is also a clause in the Directive, and from ECJ case C-459/99 (MRAX vs Kingdom of Belgium) that allows them to enter without a visa.gb wrote:re- kiwi passport- are you saying we don't even need the FP (of course we have entered a number of times over the past couple of years on holiday, no visa required but I thought the FP starts off a process leading to the RC for my dependents). If not then it would be great to just be able to ignore completely that step and if/when we decide to hop over to the Uk, then we just get on a plane.
In that case then, how and when would I prove a dependent over 21 is financially dependent on us- after we land and apply for the RC?
Yea, I doubt some messed up university financial people would see it that way. "You're lucky we even gave you citizenship in the first place mate!" :-)gb wrote:Also just a quick query on the 3-year rule. Normally one would by default have to have been in the UK for 3 years prior i.e.- applying for naturalisation/ILR etc, as that is the route one follows- its a step-by-step set of rules. In my case I'm a citizen by descent- therefore to assume I would have been in the country beforehand is wrong. I would argue that I've not been given the opportunity to move prior to applying - I am in fact a 'brand new' citizen- surely there is some leniency in applying the 3- year rule in the case of UKM applications. I mean I would not have pre-meditated a move to the UK because it was not a route we could take until fairly recently, and generally an application like this is made from the outside, by its very nature. We are instant citizens, addressing past discrimination where British mothers were not allowed to pass citizenship on to their children. Do you see where I'm coming from on this- why should UKM citizens be subjected to the 3-year rule if by the very nature of their approval they are made instant citizens with FULL rights.
Yes, thanks- to be clear our son is under 21 right now (19 in fact), BUT will turn 22 in December 2013.Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
The benefit of you getting an EEA FP is that you can go through the process of proving that they are covered by EU law while still living outside of the UK. The EEA FP acts as a sort of informal confirmation, which would later be hard to argue against when the RC application is under way. This is especially important, because your over 21 child is not one of the easy family members. See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ly-member/ and http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2008/04 ... ficiaries/
That made me smile- they certainly didn't gift this out of the goodness of their heart mate!- we UKM's owe this to a couple of individuals who fought tooth and nail to remove the discrimination.Directive/2004/38/EC wrote: Yea, I doubt some messed up university financial people would see it that way. "You're lucky we even gave you citizenship in the first place mate!"
I actually suspect the UK university 3-year rule could be successfully challenged in court, but that is a whole other discussion!
It has to be real and genuine employment. So you need to be working for somebody else (part time job at McDonalds is fine), or need to be self-employed but doing real things with real customers and getting real revenue.gb wrote:Gents, how long after I land in the Netherlands and have registered with the local authorities and am seen as exercising my treaty rights (own business or employment somewhere) can I then apply for the FP and then move with dependents over to the UK? a month, 2 months?