Foreign nurses clampdown by NHS

Chess · Post by **Chess** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:37 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5140648.stm

tekaweni · Post by **tekaweni** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:56 pm

I suppose that makes sense, given that the whole point of overseas recruitment is to alleviate local skills shortages and we currently have up to 85% of newly qualified nurses battling to find places.

Post by **John** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:24 pm

tekaweni, fair comment, but what worries me here is whether there is any retrospective element of this? (At this moment that is a genuine question!)

That is, do the new restrictions hit nurses already in the UK, who are now prevented from changing jobs, or getting a job after completing their assimilation training. If it does affect those already in the UK then I think that is a very regrettable step.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:45 pm

I suppose that makes sense, given that the whole point of overseas recruitment is to alleviate local skills shortages and we currently have up to 85% of newly qualified nurses battling to find places.

Bear in mind that most nurses being recruited from overseas are not newly qualified, but are in fact highly experienced nursing professionals. There is, in fact, still a dire shortage of qualified health professionals in the UK. The NHS is of course now laying off doctors and nurses in droves in order to satisfy budgetry constraints, but that does not mean that there is no longer a shortage. It just means the government is too cheap to employ more nurses and doctors.

Would you rather be treated by one of the UK resident fresh-faced newly qualified nurses with no experience or by a highly skilled nursing professional with years of experience who just happens to come from India or South Africa?

I'd far rather prefer a health service that recruits on skill and experience alone, rather than on nationality! Good luck to them...

tekaweni · Post by **tekaweni** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:59 pm

John, agreed that the Home Office's recent penchant for making rule changes retrospective is a worry to anyone still en-route to ILR.

I listened to a talk on BB2 radio earlier today which touched on the nurses issue but the only mention made was regarding future recruitment. Having almost been made redundant just a few months before getting ILR myself I fully relate to the worry caused by the uncertainty.

The NHS has for many years poached talent from wherever they can by offering a brighter future in the UK, and it would be morally wrong to renege on that. Also, the wording of some of their overseas advertising could possibly amount to a promise, legally speaking?

WoodieG · Post by **WoodieG** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:20 pm

I would imagine the current rules on Shortage Occupations will still stand, i.e. that if the job was on the list when a permit was applied for then there will be no need to advertise for an extension application.

Also, I don't think all nursing jobs will be removed it will just be those at the lower end.
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vilkatis · Post by **vilkatis** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:23 am

from the article :

The decision to remove general nurses from the shortage occupation list, means employers will need to advertise any vacancies first and only if they are unable to fill the post can they turn to international recruitment.

At present, this change applies to nursing posts graded at Agenda for Change bands five and six.

There doesn't seem to be any need to panic. It's just an announcement to remove it from the Skills Occupation Shortages list. The list hasn't even been altered (yet), though I'd expect that to be happening right about now.

It specifically applies to ''general nurses,'' as opposed to specialists and well-experienced. I doubt that any new graduates from this summer will be obtaining any of these vacancies.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but when I read this my reaction was "well done" ... the government had a problem, designed a solution for it, and it looks like it worked. Rather cheerful news, actually.

-- vilkatis

Post by **John** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:01 pm

vilkatis, you are totally entitled to your opinion, but personally I don't agree with it. I still think that there is insufficient protection for those nurses already working in the UK. I say that because if a nurse is already in post .... OK fine, they can stay in post ..... but they are totally prevented from changing to another nursing position in the affected grades.

There will be many situations where a move from one job to another is desirable or necessary. For example their partner or spouse obtains a job in a different part of the UK ... it looks likely that the nurse will be unable to move.

The NHS Trust can advertise? Yes they can, but now many will bother? And indeed how many can afford to advertise in the way they need to?

Yet another example of those already in the UK being retrospectively affected after arrival in the UK. It is not beyond the Government to devise an exemption to nurses already in post .... but certainly apply the new regulations to those not yet in the UK.

Thandia · Post by **Thandia** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:11 pm

I know some nurses who have had to leave the country because they could not get their work permits extended. This happened @ the beginning of the year but fortunately, they were able to relocate to Australia. A friend of mine in her final year of a nursing course has also told me foreign students who just recently started their nurse training @ the same university have been told they can no longer continue with the course as they're no longer offering nurse training to foreigners.

The truth of the matter is the govt began clamping down on foreign nurses even before this announcement. The announcement is just a way of making official what they have already began to implement IMO.

tvt · Post by **tvt** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:35 pm

John,

This will not affect nurses already in UK jobs. Like any other tier 2 WP applications there is no need to conduct resident labour search when moving between similar jobs.

Post by **JAJ** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:52 pm

John wrote:tekaweni, fair comment, but what worries me here is whether there is any retrospective element of this? (At this moment that is a genuine question!)

That is, do the new restrictions hit nurses already in the UK, who are now prevented from changing jobs, or getting a job after completing their assimilation training. If it does affect those already in the UK then I think that is a very regrettable step.

John
Why do you say this? Work permits are not supposed to be settlement visas, and there is absolutely no obligation on the United Kingdom to offer settlement after any time period if it does not accord with United Kingdom national interests. Most countries don't do this.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:58 pm

Work permits are not supposed to be settlement visas

Actually I think you will find that they are. Any time spent on a work permit in the UK counts towards obtaining indefinite leave to remain and therefore can be regarded as a "settlement visa". Along with HSMP visas, ancestry visas and various others.

vilkatis · Post by **vilkatis** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:48 pm

Wasn't looking for a fight on this one, folks.

My observation is that the UK government had/has a problem filling healthcare positions.

They solved it initially by recruiting people from outside the country.

Second phase was to develop incentives to cover the shortfall domestically.

All the while they've been getting pounded by various special interests. On top of that, Britain (along with all major western countries) have been heavily and steadily criticized for poaching the most critically needed people from these positions in their own countries, which very arguably require them more than the westerners.

My observation is that the government chose and developed a solution that tried to cover the most important bases.

This announcement is hardly an earth-shattering surprise.

For all the black eyes the government and the NHS have been taking (for reason or not), piling onto them for this progress along a functioning policy is a bit unjust.

With all the dismal failures in policy and implementation surrounding us every day, it was nice to see something work. Recruiting foreign nurses and doctors was a temporary solution from the beginning. Parts of that policy are fulfilling their function and have run their course.

More will follow. People using this (or a similar) policy to get a leg up in life should be watching their professions carefully to avoid being surprised by normal changes.

What about all the domestic students who just spent three to five years getting degrees and training as nurses to respond to a "crisis" faced by their own country? Should they face unemployment and depressed wages due to unfair competition from outside their country?

-- vilkatis

ppron747 · Post by **ppron747** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:52 pm

JAJ wrote:John
Why do you say this? Work permits are not supposed to be settlement visas, and there is absolutely no obligation on the United Kingdom to offer settlement after any time period if it does not accord with United Kingdom national interests. Most countries don't do this.

Settlement may not be the primary purpose of (eg) WP / HSMP from the UK government's point of view, but it is part of the deal that, after spending a prescribed length of time in what the IND website calls "a category leading to settlement", settlement will be granted. Surely you appreciate that this why there was/is such a furore over the lengthening of the prescribed time from 4 to 5 years? The carrot dangled by the government was settlement, and the stick was suddenly made longer...

Other countries may or may not offer settlement as part of the WP deal. The UK government does.

Post by **John** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:12 pm

JAJ wrote:John
Why do you say this? Work permits are not supposed to be settlement visas, and there is absolutely no obligation on the United Kingdom to offer settlement after any time period if it does not accord with United Kingdom national interests. Most countries don't do this.

I think look at this from the point of view of the actual nurse, someone who has come to the UK quite possibly from thousands of miles away. As already pointed out by Dawie WPs are a path to ILR ... are a path to Naturalisation. Accordingly many making the move to the UK do so because they do actually plan to live the rest of their lives in the UK. That was their expectation when they came here and for many the ability to achieve the plan has been altered retrospectively.

Elsewhere on this Board we have people complaining ... and quite rightly ... about the move from 4 years to 5 years before they can apply for ILR. I put this latest move on nurses in the same category ..... it is retrospective .... as far as those already in the UK are concerned.

Post by **JAJ** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:02 pm

John wrote: I think look at this from the point of view of the actual nurse, someone who has come to the UK quite possibly from thousands of miles away. As already pointed out by Dawie WPs are a path to ILR ... are a path to Naturalisation. Accordingly many making the move to the UK do so because they do actually plan to live the rest of their lives in the UK. That was their expectation when they came here and for many the ability to achieve the plan has been altered retrospectively.

Elsewhere on this Board we have people complaining ... and quite rightly ... about the move from 4 years to 5 years before they can apply for ILR. I put this latest move on nurses in the same category ..... it is retrospective .... as far as those already in the UK are concerned.

John, with respect, if that's the way the system should run then why not just give ILR at the start and be done with it?

Historically there has been a situation in the UK where people who stayed on a work permit for 4 years could apply for settlement. But I don't think there has ever been a legitimate expectation that the UK had an obligation to offer settlement after any time period. It is unfortunate that such an expectation has been allowed to develop among WP holders, however I don't think that is an acceptable constraint upon Government policy.

It's a little different with visas such as HSMP where it is clearly intended to be a migrant pathway.

The 4 years to 5 change for ILR seems to be a done deal, but I doubt it's going to be the last of the changes in the pipeline.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:08 am

Historically there has been a situation in the UK where people who stayed on a work permit for 4 years could apply for settlement. But I don't think there has ever been a legitimate expectation that the UK had an obligation to offer settlement after any time period. It is unfortunate that such an expectation has been allowed to develop among WP holders, however I don't think that is an acceptable constraint upon Government policy.

I strongly disagree. You make it sound as if ILR is some kind of discretionary concession that work permit holders should be grateful for receiving when it is quite clearly codified in law and really is a very legitimate expection when obtaining a work permit.

You can't realistically expect people to come to the UK on work permits when there is no prospect of settlement. There is very definitely an obligation on behalf of the UK government to offer settlement to work permit holders, both legally and morally.

Post by **John** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:21 am

Dawie, I agree with your comments.

JAJ on this one we are just going to have to disagree. I continue to think that no change to immigration law should be retrospective, and I see this change as regards nurses as in that category for those already in the country.

There is an underlying point here concerning lack of planning and lack of forward thinking. It was great that the Labour Government when it gained power in 1997 greatly expanded the provision of nurse training in the UK. But such expansion did not instantly produce new nurses but it was inevitable that it would at some future date.

Accordingly why was it not made clear to nurses that they would only be granted visas say like the SBS ... not leading to settlement. If that had been done it would have been clear to people that their stay in the UK would only be short-term. But no instead of that we have the situation where we suddenly go from all to nothing, and no intermediate stage at all.

Clearly a lack of planning between the NHS and the Home Office!

olisun · Post by **olisun** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:36 am

Dawie wrote: I strongly disagree. You make it sound as if ILR is some kind of discretionary concession that work permit holders should be grateful for receiving when it is quite clearly codified in law and really is a very legitimate expection when obtaining a work permit.

I don't agree to this fully..... for e.g an offshore company wants to send a resource to the UK on a WP to implement a project, does it mean that the candidate should accept the offer only if he gets to apply for ILR in the future?. Is this a legitimate expectation?

Or should any WP candidate accept the job offer only if the company / govt. promise him ILR in the future?

Btw as mentioned earlier several times, the govt. has NEVER said you CANNOT apply for ILR after 5yrs.

Regarding the doctors, it's a different case. They save lives and the change in rules have actually made them jobless unlike the WP candidates from other profession.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:44 am

Or should any WP candidate accept the job offer only if the company / govt. promise him ILR in the future?

That's really up to the individual. But tell me something. Would you really be willing to uproot yourself from your home country, come to the UK, possibly with your family in tow, knowing that there was no prospect of you being able to stay permanently? How many people do you think would be up for that?

I obviously can't speak for anyone else, but I personally would NEVER have come to the UK on a work permit if there was no prospect of eventually getting ILR (which I now have) and full citizenship. What would the point have been?

Post by **Administrator** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:31 am

WorkPermit.com has posted news on this topic, and has updated the Skills Shortage Occupations list to reflect the changes discussed here.

Applications received on or after 14 August, 2006 are affected :

• UK to change Skills Shortage Occupations for nurses, 14 August
http://workpermit.com/news/2006_07_06/u ... ortage.htm

• Skills Shortage Occupations
http://workpermit.com/uk/work_permit/occupations.htm

Previous news items :

• UK government to take nurses off skills shortage occupations list
http://workpermit.com/news/2006-07-03/u ... e_list.htm

• Nearly 80% of new UK graduates in nursing face unemployment
http://workpermit.com/news/2006-06-30/u ... nurses.htm

If anyone is aware of related news or errors, we would be happy to see the information and make sure our repoting is accurate.

Thanks!

The Admin

samkma · Post by **samkma** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:30 pm

By this new policy coming to effect soon, the British government is restricting the movement of nurses from one employer to another if they are on a work permit as the new employer will not get one, so Nurses are bound by LAW to work where they are and suffer. This is another form of EXPLIOTATION after offering prospects for Overseas Nurses in UK now they are treated like dogs. British policies are in many ways means of explioting forgien work force. They can change when they like, while if other countries try doing this they say "NO FREE MOVEMENT FOR FORGIEN WORKERS FROM EMPLOYER TO EMPLOYER"

Post by **John** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:39 pm

Indeed Samkma, I made exactly that same point in this topic on 3rd July.

I think this is very regrettable, tying a nurse to their current position and not allowing a change of employer.

WoodieG · Post by **WoodieG** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:25 pm

samkma wrote:By this new policy coming to effect soon, the British government is restricting the movement of nurses from one employer to another if they are on a work permit as the new employer will not get one, so Nurses are bound by LAW to work where they are and suffer. This is another form of EXPLIOTATION after offering prospects for Overseas Nurses in UK now they are treated like dogs. British policies are in many ways means of explioting forgien work force. They can change when they like, while if other countries try doing this they say "NO FREE MOVEMENT FOR FORGIEN WORKERS FROM EMPLOYER TO EMPLOYER"

If you going to go off on one you could at least get your facts right.
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samkma · Post by **samkma** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:03 pm

Hi WoodieG
I did not get to your point.

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Foreign nurses clampdown by NHS

Foreign nurses clampdown by NHS