husband being detained with a view to deportation soon!

[juju]

my husband was arrested and taken to a deportation centre today (near london).

he is algerian and also has an irish passport because he is married an irish citizen (me)

he is very down. we weren't able to get a solictor to go and see him today and have to wait until tomorrow to do anything with only 5 days to appeal.

i did mention to him maybe he shouldn't have reapplied for an algerian passport when it ran out, because if he wasn't algerian maybe they couldn't deport him there - does anyone know just out of interest?

he was in prison - deception - but was trying very hard to find a job and make a new start in life - he even had two days temp work for tomorrow and friday - finally a chance!!

i am 3 months pregnant and obviously dont' want him to be deported. any advice????????????????????????????

i am not working myself which doesn't help i have been ill for nearly 6 years now but did work before, when i was able.

[ppron747]

I don't claim any expertise in these matters, but my immediate reaction is that you / your solicitor should report this to the Irish Consulate as soon as possible, and see whether they are at least able to ensure that, if he is deported, it is to Ireland not Algeria. And try to stop thinking of him as an Algerian who also happens to have an Irish passport - he's an Irishman who happens also to have an Algerian passport...

[Christophe]

i did mention to him maybe he shouldn't have reapplied for an algerian passport when it ran out, because if he wasn't algerian maybe they couldn't deport him there - does anyone know just out of interest?

I don't think that this would have made any difference technically, because possession of a passport is predicated on the basis of one's citizenship or nationality, not the other way round. In other words, if he hadn't renewed his Algerian passport he would still have been an Algerian citizen, simply one without a current passport. (It is not compulsory, in most countries anyway and I presume therefore in Algeria, to have a passport.) But I guess that's of academic interest mainly.

At this point, he ought to make it very clear to his lawyer that he is an Irish citizen. Getting the Irish consulate involved is important too - his lawyer ought to be able to this.

I hope he is treated properly - all the best!

[John]

my husband was arrested and taken to a deportation centre today (near london).

he was in prison - deception

Clearly this is part of the Home Office crackdown on those that should have been considered for deportation at the end of their sentences, but that got overlooked.

As already said, legal advice needs to be sought urgently. But if the worst does come to the worst, clearly your husband has the ability to go to Ireland, and whilst you might not want to move back home, at least it is a much shorter journey than Algeria.

And try to stop thinking of him as an Algerian who also happens to have an Irish passport - he's an Irishman who happens also to have an Algerian passport...

An extremely good comment! OK he was born in a particular country, but now he is a dual national. He is just as much Irish as Algerian.

[juju]

for taking time to reply

appreciated

[Dawie]

My 2 cents worth.....

How does the Home Office know that he is an Algerian citizen? Surely he would have entered the UK on his Irish passport. Was he an Irish citizen at the time of his crime? Surely, if he was, he would have been recorded as being an Irish national in the prison register, and not an Algerian national.

Practically speaking though, deporting your husband is a waste of time because the moment he lands in Algeria, he can just hop on a plane back to London with his Irish passport. In practise there is very little the Home Office can do to stop your husband from returning to the UK because of his Irish citizenship.

[Christophe]

It is within the powers of the British government to deport an Irish citizen - Irish citizens do not have the right of abode in the UK. It is also within the government's powers not to allow an Irish citizen to enter the country. In practice it is difficult of course to enforce the non-entry of an Irish citizen into the UK from Ireland because Ireland and the UK form a common travel area. But it ought to be simple enough to prevent an Irish citizen from living in the UK - I say 'ought' to be because, as we know, the Home Office is not very good at such things.

Having said all of that, Irish citizens are rarely deported from or denied entry to the UK. But it's not impossible.

[tereshchenko]

But Ireland is part of EU, as is UK - so citizens of Ireland should be able to stay as long as they are registered with authorities, isn't it?

[Dawie]

No, EU citizens can be deported from the UK like any other nationalies from the world. However in practice it is extremely difficult to enforce because EU citizens are not subject to the same scrutiny when entering the UK as non-EU citizens.

In the case of Ireland it is even more difficult. Because of the common travel area between the UK and the Ireland there are no immigration controls when travelling from Ireland to the UK and therefore no way to prevent a deported Irish citizen from reentering the UK.

[John]

tereshchenko, no that is incorrect, the EU regulations still allow countries to exclude people they feel are undesirable. That is :-

Member States may restrict the freedom of movement and residence of Union citizens and their family members, irrespective of nationality, on grounds of public policy, public security or public health.

[juju]

yes, he was an irish citizen at the time of his crime. they know he is algerian because, and i dont know for certain, the judge recommended him for deportation at the end of his sentence so the prison contacted the HO. i have an idea there is something about being resident as an eu citizen in the uk for 5 years to avoid deportation - he has been a citizen since 03/04 - but that i can't confirm that

they kept saying to him at the prision there is a problem with your immigration and he repeatedly told them he had an irish passport

the immigration officers took his passport yesterday although we can apply for another if he is sent to algeria - i dont know if there will be a problem because he has been depoted from the uk.

[JAJ]

the immigration officers took his passport yesterday

Under international law, passports belong to the issuing government. So if they really have confiscated his Irish passport, they are obliged to contact the Irish Embassy to return it to them. You should report this to the Embassy immediately.

[JAJ]

Practically speaking though, deporting your husband is a waste of time because the moment he lands in Algeria, he can just hop on a plane back to London with his Irish passport. In practise there is very little the Home Office can do to stop your husband from returning to the UK because of his Irish citizenship.

Wrong. His Irish passport will still be checked on arrival and should his details raise a flag on entry, he will have a problem. And he'll face this risk every time he re-enters the United Kingdom.

Even were he to get into the United Kingdom another way, such as sneaking over the land frontier into Northern Ireland, there may well be scope for him to be arrested over violation of a deportation order if he was subsequently found to be resident in the United Kingdom.

It would probably make more sense long-term - if the deportation order cannot be removed - to make a life in the Republic of Ireland.

[ppron747]

In fact there is no requirement to have a passport to travel in either direction. Airlines, these days, generally require photo ID, and it may be that sea routes do as well. But this doesn't have to take the form of a passport.

I've taken three one-day business trips to Dublin in the last two years, by air. I took my passport, because it is my only British photo ID. I carried it in my hand "in case" and on one occasion it was given a cursory glance by Aer Lingus ground staff before I boarded the flight at Heathrow. I wasn't aware of passing any immigration official at all.

Isn't that what "Common Travel Area" means?

[JAJ]

Isn't that what "Common Travel Area" means?

I don't think it gives Irish citizens a licence to defy a United Kingdom deportation order. Isn't that a criminal offence in the United Kingdom?

The Irish made a decision three or so generations ago not to be part of the United Kingdom. They've no real right to complain if the United Kingdom deports Irish citizens whose actions make them unwelcome in the United Kingdom.

[ppron747]

Isn't that what "Common Travel Area" means?

I don't think it gives Irish citizens a licence to defy a United Kingdom deportation order. Isn't that a criminal offence in the United Kingdom?

The Irish made a decision three or so generations ago not to be part of the United Kingdom. They've no real right to complain if the United Kingdom deports Irish citizens whose actions make them unwelcome in the United Kingdom.

I don't know what has brought this on...

The only point I was struggling (in vain) to make was that travelling between the two countries needn't involve a passport. From the FCO website:

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS

Ireland, along with the UK, is a member of the Common Travel Area. This means that United Kingdom passport holders do not require their passport to visit Ireland for immigration purposes. However, we recommend you carry an acceptable form of photo-identification for travel between the UK and Ireland (and between UK airports).

Of course people shouldn't break the law - that goes without saying - which is why I didn't say it.

[Dawie]

Wrong. His Irish passport will still be checked on arrival and should his details raise a flag on entry, he will have a problem. And he'll face this risk every time he re-enters the United Kingdom.

No it won't. Not if he arrives from Ireland. There is absolutely NO immigration control on arrival in the UK from Ireland. The Irish do check arrivals from the UK though. I know this from personal experience.

[JAJ]

No it won't. Not if he arrives from Ireland. There is absolutely NO immigration control on arrival in the UK from Ireland. The Irish do check arrivals from the UK though. I know this from personal experience.

Well possibly, but then it means that every entry to and from the UK would need to be via the Republic of Ireland.

And it doesn't alter the fact that being in the UK in defiance of a deportation order could lead to further sanction if found out. Are you seriously advising that?

Unless the Republic of Ireland authorities co-operate fully with new UK border measures over the next few years, the Common Travel Area may well not exist in a few years anyway.

[Dawie]

And it doesn't alter the fact that being in the UK in defiance of a deportation order could lead to further sanction if found out. Are you seriously advising that?

I would advise that the chances of a deported Irish citizen encountering any problems upon reentry into the UK is close to zero.

What the individual concerned chooses to do with that information is up to them.

[juju]

for the replies, it is a big help at a time when i am at my wits end.

they have taken him to a different detention centre and i dont' know where just that he can ring me when he gets there. unfortunately, this has compeltely messed everything up with the solictor i had found for him.

the solicitor is waiting for his notice of deportation and appeal documents to be faxed through before he can act - but obviously my husband can't do this because he is either waiting somewhere to be moved or in transit. it also means the solicitor is unable to make an appointment for a legal visit because we don't know where he is. the solicitor was prepared to visit today if he could.

The most worrying thing is that if the new detention centre is not in the heathrowish area the solicitor will not be able to take the case and i will be back to square one again, having to find a new solicitor, with the appeal having to be in before tuesday next week (probably 12 noon).

another problem is getting through to talk to my husband by phone. i tried continually this morning to get through before finally getting through at 12.10 to be told he had been moved.

i dont' want to contact the irish embassy until the solicitor has seen him and knows how to proceed. i dont want to do the wrong thing.

[John]

i dont' want to contact the irish embassy until the solicitor has seen him and knows how to proceed. i dont want to do the wrong thing.

Totally up to you how you play this but I am not understand your reticence to contact the Irish Embassy in London. Your husband is Irish, he is entitled to assistance from the Irish Embassy, but if they don't know of the problem, how can they help?

Worse case ... he is deported .... you want to ensure that is to Ireland and not your husband's other country. The involvement of the Irish Embassy will at least ensure that the UK authorities take account of the fact that are dealing with an Irish Citizen.

[Dawie]

I must say I agree with John. The Irish embassy needs to be contacted sooner rather than later! You do seem rather reluctant to contact them.

[Christophe]

i dont' want to contact the irish embassy until the solicitor has seen him and knows how to proceed. i dont want to do the wrong thing.

I think you are making a mistake in not contacting the Irish embassy. In all fairness to them, they can't do anything at all if they don't know that the situation exists.

Any contact you make with the embassy is not a 'once-only' thing. There is nothing to stop you contacting them and then contacting them again after your husband has seen his solicitor. They may even be able to help to expedite the solicitor's appointment.

You won't be doing the wrong thing by contacting them. I'd say do it immediately. If there is a weekend emergency number, I'd use that. Even if they can't help during the weekend, they might be able to tell you what best to do when business re-opens on Monday. Failing that, I'd be in touch the very first thing on Monday morning.

[Wanderer]

Reading between the lines here but has he an Irish Passport I wonder?

I dunno about Irish immigration Law (or UK for that matter!) but assuming the OP is Irish, lives in UK, married the Algerian guy in UK, what is his immigration status exactly? Assuming they've never lived in Ireland can he get an Irish passport this way? Or is there more history we need to know?

I know I won't get a Russian passport when I marry my gf without living there for some time so I wonder if the guy does have an Irish Passport?

We need to know more history I think.

Steve

[ppron747]

No we don't, Steve - search for juju's previous posts, and all should be clear...