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US National refused entry and needs advice

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bello_returns
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US National refused entry and needs advice

Post by bello_returns » Tue May 10, 2011 8:07 am

I'm new here so I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this but I and my friend need some advice on my current situation.

A little background info:
My friend and I are BOTH US citizens and US nationals as well bearing United States passports. We are both solo musicians and we set up a European tour in UK, Holland, Belgium and Germany. Our first show was to be Manchester. We only intended to stay in the UK for about a week and then we were going to ferry over to Amsterdam. These were all to be non-paying gigs. We also decided to make this a vacation trip as well. There were gaps between our shows giving us ample time to sight-see. So it was intended to be a holiday as well as a tour. My friend has performed in the UK and Europe prior to this incident.


What happened to us:
In January 2011, we flew to Heathrow. I had done a little research and decided it would be best not to mention our performances. NOT for the purpose of deceiving the immigration officers, but because I read that US citizens could enter the UK on tourist OR business purposes without a visa. I assumed business meant working. And I figured since we weren't getting paid, it would be too confusing to explain the whole situation since we hadnt had much contact between the club promoters due to lack of international calls on our cell phones. They weren't personal friends, they contacted us on our Myspace pages. And its not like us visiting was a lie because we did genuinely intend to sight-see (especially me who had never been to Europe before). The immigration officer began asking us very detailed questions, and became suspicious because we did end up mentioning our intent to perform (this is all before we were detained) and because we were going to be travelling alot within the UK. We were detained and searched. They found emails that my friend printed and brought along that had all the details of our shows. Furthermore, they saw that my friend checked luggage full of CD's, t-shirts etc. Btw, we didnt have any instruments because we make electronic music so we use laptops. We were detained for about 7 hrs and during the interview, she explained to us that we needed visas to perform. We told her we were not aware of that and we thought since we weren't being paid money, we didn't need them. She also said that nowhere in the emails does it say anything about sight-seeing or visiting. But we definitely did intend to do all the stupid touristy stuff. The emails were printed just in case the club was fradulent (we've had that happen before) to prove that we were in contact with someone who booked us.

Anyway, long story short, we were refused entry. I no longer have the official document stating the refusal but two things I do remember is that a) nowhere did it state that there was any type of ban against us, nor was that told to us verbally and b) the document said we tried to use deception to enter the country. In fact, we were told we could return with the proper documents (I remember this because I remember my friend angrily replied with "oh trust me, I won't be back".). We were almost immediately flown back to Iceland (our layover country) which I found weird because we aren't Icelandic but they said they have to return us to the last place we came from. We got a hotel in Keflavik, spent the night and flew back to Los Angeles the following day.


What's happening now:
MY friend decided he wanted to go back to visit the UK and Holland since our trip was ruined. We intend to fly to Holland on the 26th of this month. We do NOT intend to perform this time. We have tickets to Amsterdam and we intend to ferry over to Newcastle (which we stated in the application). We have applied for UK visit visas but my worry is the deception thing. I understand and accept that it is the travellers responsibility to know the rules, but we did not intend to deceive the officers. We just didn't initially mention performing because again, since we weren't being paid, we didn't feel that information was any more pertinent than us going to see River Thames was. In my head, what would be the difference if we stood outside Buckingham with a boombox and performed? I wrote in the comment section that I was very sorry and I realize I made a mistake and all that. But I'm just waiting and I'm very nervous.

So I have two questions
Are my chances bad since they believed we were being deceitful even though in the app I explained my POV.

and

Since we stayed in iceland for a day, there is a Schengen visa stamp in my passport. I understand that UK immigration does not appear when scanned in a Schengen country but if they see my black refusal stamp, will the previous schengen visa help my case at all? Will the black stamp HURT my chances at all in getting into Amsterdam? I know this is really long but I just need some help here and I wanted to be as detailed as possible so I could get a better answer. Any advice/help would be appreciated. :)
Last edited by bello_returns on Tue May 10, 2011 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

joh118
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Post by joh118 » Tue May 10, 2011 11:58 am

Because of this incident, you will be subject to a closer scrutiny of your intentions when visiting the UK. Expect to be asked extra questions and just be more alert next time. In the UK, "working" (by immigration) is defined by any job/work that a UK citizen can do. I am sure it means the same thing in US as well. A visit visa means what it says, to "visit". I don't think performing is the same as visiting...

To perform in the UK (regardless of whether being paid or not), you should have applied for a Tier 5 (creative and sporting) Visa

I think you were not banned because you were truthful when you were asked questions. Had you lied about performing in the UK and a luggage search found that you were gonig to perform, it would have been more serious.

The UK does not accept the Schengen visa. It is completely separate to UK immigration. It has no relevance to your case. In the same way, a black UK immigration stamp has no relevance to Schengen countries so you should be fine.

Mr Rusty
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Post by Mr Rusty » Tue May 10, 2011 1:50 pm

joh118 wrote:Because of this incident, you will be subject to a closer scrutiny of your intentions when visiting the UK. Expect to be asked extra questions and just be more alert next time.

I think you were not banned .....
I don't agree with that because the OP recalls having it in writing that he used deception - "I no longer have the official document stating the refusal but two things I do remember is that ....... b) the document said we tried to use deception to enter the country" Whatever they stated verbally, it's what is on the refusal notice that counts, and if that says that he used deception he will be subject to a mandatory 10-year ban under Para 320 7B of the Immigration Rules when he next seeks entry to the UK or applies for a UK visa, however "alert" he is.

P.S. Re "Schengen Visa" are we confusing "visa" with "entry stamp"? I wouldn't imagine that US citizens have to get a visa before they travel to Iceland, he probably just got an entry stamp at the border. If he subsequently returned to USA he left the Schengen area, and so in effect if he travels to Holland he will be seeking entry to the Schengen area all over again. It will be up to the Dutch whether they let him in or not, and they may well take notice of his previous refusal in the UK in making their decision
Last edited by Mr Rusty on Tue May 10, 2011 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

joh118
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Post by joh118 » Tue May 10, 2011 1:57 pm

Mr Rusty wrote:
joh118 wrote:Because of this incident, you will be subject to a closer scrutiny of your intentions when visiting the UK. Expect to be asked extra questions and just be more alert next time.

I think you were not banned .....

I don't agree with that because the OP recalls having it in writing that he used deception - "I no longer have the official document stating the refusal but two things I do remember is that ....... b) the document said we tried to use deception to enter the country" Whatever they stated verbally, it's what is on the refusal notice that counts, and if that says that he used deception he will be subject to a mandatory 10-year ban under Para 320 7B of the Immigration Rules when he next seeks entry to the UK or applies for a UK visa, however "alert" he is.
well, the outcome of his UK visit visa application will show up any bans he may have imposed.

bello_returns
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Post by bello_returns » Tue May 10, 2011 3:44 pm

Mr Rusty wrote:
joh118 wrote:Because of this incident, you will be subject to a closer scrutiny of your intentions when visiting the UK. Expect to be asked extra questions and just be more alert next time.

I think you were not banned .....

I don't agree with that because the OP recalls having it in writing that he used deception - "I no longer have the official document stating the refusal but two things I do remember is that ....... b) the document said we tried to use deception to enter the country" Whatever they stated verbally, it's what is on the refusal notice that counts, and if that says that he used deception he will be subject to a mandatory 10-year ban under Para 320 7B of the Immigration Rules when he next seeks entry to the UK or applies for a UK visa, however "alert" he is.

P.S. Re "Schengen Visa" are we confusing "visa" with "entry stamp"? I wouldn't imagine that US citizens have to get a visa before they travel to Iceland, he probably just got an entry stamp at the border. If he subsequently returned to USA he left the Schengen area, and so in effect if he travels to Holland he will be seeking entry to the Schengen area all over again. It will be up to the Dutch whether they let him in or not, and they may well take notice of his previous refusal in the UK in making their decision
Yes, sorry I meant entry stamp. And also, yes I distinctly remember it using the term "deception" on the document but I also distinctly remember that it didn't say anything about being banned. He made the decision to go back in May pretty much the following day or two so had it explicitly said we were banned, we wouldn't have planned to go back.

Also the man who escorted us onto the plane, as well as the man who looked after us assured us that this happens all the time and he almost made it seem like it was "no big deal" (which of course it IS a big deal), and that we are more than welcome to come back, we just have to have the right papers for what we're there for. The immigration officer didn't make it seem as if we were in any trouble legally, and she actually wasn't too mean or forceful with us (as I've seen IO's can be on UK Border Force) her demeanor was more of a "sorry I can't let you in, you don't have the proper visa. It's the law."

pennylessinindia
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Re: US National refused entry and needs advice

Post by pennylessinindia » Tue May 10, 2011 4:17 pm

bello_returns wrote:We are both solo musicians and we set up a European tour in UK, Holland, Belgium and Germany. Our first show was to be Manchester. .... My friend has performed in the UK and Europe prior to this incident.


I had done a little research and decided it would be best not to mention our performances. NOT for the purpose of deceiving the immigration officers, but because I read that US citizens could enter the UK on tourist OR business purposes without a visa. I assumed business meant working. We were detained for about 7 hrs and during the interview, she explained to us that we needed visas to perform. We told her we were not aware of that and we thought since we weren't being paid money, we didn't need them. She also said that nowhere in the emails does it say anything about sight-seeing or visiting. But we definitely did intend to do all the stupid touristy stuff. The emails were printed just in case the club was fradulent (we've had that happen before) to prove that we were in contact with someone who booked us.

Anyway, long story short, we were refused entry. I no longer have the official document stating the refusal but two things I do remember is that the document said we tried to use deception to enter the country. .



:)

I think it is all a bit far fetched... you knew what you were doing and tried to get away with it now you have lost the documents??

Very soon you will know if you were considered to have used deception as you will either be issued or refused
pennyless

bello_returns
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Re: US National refused entry and needs advice

Post by bello_returns » Tue May 10, 2011 4:32 pm

pennylessinindia wrote: :)

I think it is all a bit far fetched... you knew what you were doing and tried to get away with it now you have lost the documents??

Very soon you will know if you were considered to have used deception as you will either be issued or refused
I did NOT know what I was doing. That's exactly the problem, I was a naive traveler and I resent your statement. Why would I travel halfway around the world to knowingly deceive a British immigration officer over an unpaid performance? Had I known that all we had to do was apply for an entertainer visa, then we would have done so.

It's not like I obtained a visit visa and then attempted to come over and stay illegally and work illegally. We didn't commit a crime. My gripe with both the UK and the US immigration policies is that they assume that everyone is well-informed of the immigration laws and most people aren't. They should be yes, but the fact remains they aren't. And when you break one of the rules, everyone assumes you did it knowingly and you're some criminal. I wasn't trying to take work from the Brits. I wasn't trying to sponge off their welfare or overstay my visa. I wasn't trying to marry anyone. I didn't commit any crime. We just wanted to do a couple of shows. I live in the US and we have a serious immigration problem as well so I get the strictness but in my specific case, I don't feel like I shouldn't be let back in over it.

EDIT: Oh yeah and the reason I don't have the document anymore is because my friend threw them away in the hotel room. Again, naivety. We didn't know you needed to keep them and at that point, we weren't expecting to go back so it didn't matter. Trust me, I'm kicking myself for it but again, I didn't know any better.

joh118
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Post by joh118 » Tue May 10, 2011 6:46 pm


bello_returns
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Post by bello_returns » Tue May 10, 2011 7:16 pm

joh118 wrote:Chapter 62 - Re-Entry Bans may be of help.
Thanks for that link. When I read that, it said that individuals MAY be banned if they do these things. This was 5 months ago so my memory isn't crystal clear but I would've remembered reading or being told that I was banned from the country, especially since I've always wanted to go to the UK. That would've been something that stuck for me. If I wasn't banned, it was probably because my offense wasn't really all that bad (in my opinion anyway). I mean yes they use the term "deception" but I would think that deception in terms of using a fake passport or false documents is far worse than just not saying something. I always thought deception was an intentional act. Yes, we didn't initially mention that one of the things we would be doing there would be performing but again, we didn't mention LOTS of stuff we intended to do. Hell, I wanted to go down to Fistral Beach at some point, but I didnt say that. Is that "deception"?


I have another question. I am leaving for Amsterdam on May 26th. I applied for a visa and paid for priority service which is supposed to be 48 hour decision. My package was delivered to the British consulate yesterday. However, I read somewhere that if you have a previous refusal, it may take longer than 48 hrs because they have to request the info about the case from the UK and they send it snail mail. However in this age with fax machines and emails, I don't see how that's even true. Does anyone know how long visa applications take when you have a previous refusal on your record? I'm worried because I leave in just over 2 weeks and I don't want my $150 for priority service wasted.

joh118
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Post by joh118 » Tue May 10, 2011 8:49 pm

bello_returns wrote:
joh118 wrote:Chapter 62 - Re-Entry Bans may be of help.
Thanks for that link. When I read that, it said that individuals MAY be banned if they do these things. This was 5 months ago so my memory isn't crystal clear but I would've remembered reading or being told that I was banned from the country, especially since I've always wanted to go to the UK. That would've been something that stuck for me. If I wasn't banned, it was probably because my offense wasn't really all that bad (in my opinion anyway). I mean yes they use the term "deception" but I would think that deception in terms of using a fake passport or false documents is far worse than just not saying something. I always thought deception was an intentional act. Yes, we didn't initially mention that one of the things we would be doing there would be performing but again, we didn't mention LOTS of stuff we intended to do. Hell, I wanted to go down to Fistral Beach at some point, but I didnt say that. Is that "deception"?


I have another question. I am leaving for Amsterdam on May 26th. I applied for a visa and paid for priority service which is supposed to be 48 hour decision. My package was delivered to the British consulate yesterday. However, I read somewhere that if you have a previous refusal, it may take longer than 48 hrs because they have to request the info about the case from the UK and they send it snail mail. However in this age with fax machines and emails, I don't see how that's even true. Does anyone know how long visa applications take when you have a previous refusal on your record? I'm worried because I leave in just over 2 weeks and I don't want my $150 for priority service wasted.
I think you might have wasted ur money there....

2 weeks is, in my opinion, unlikely given your past history. But I guess as you have already applied, just wait and see!

bello_returns
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Post by bello_returns » Tue May 10, 2011 9:03 pm

joh118 wrote:
bello_returns wrote:
joh118 wrote:Chapter 62 - Re-Entry Bans may be of help.
Thanks for that link. When I read that, it said that individuals MAY be banned if they do these things. This was 5 months ago so my memory isn't crystal clear but I would've remembered reading or being told that I was banned from the country, especially since I've always wanted to go to the UK. That would've been something that stuck for me. If I wasn't banned, it was probably because my offense wasn't really all that bad (in my opinion anyway). I mean yes they use the term "deception" but I would think that deception in terms of using a fake passport or false documents is far worse than just not saying something. I always thought deception was an intentional act. Yes, we didn't initially mention that one of the things we would be doing there would be performing but again, we didn't mention LOTS of stuff we intended to do. Hell, I wanted to go down to Fistral Beach at some point, but I didnt say that. Is that "deception"?


I have another question. I am leaving for Amsterdam on May 26th. I applied for a visa and paid for priority service which is supposed to be 48 hour decision. My package was delivered to the British consulate yesterday. However, I read somewhere that if you have a previous refusal, it may take longer than 48 hrs because they have to request the info about the case from the UK and they send it snail mail. However in this age with fax machines and emails, I don't see how that's even true. Does anyone know how long visa applications take when you have a previous refusal on your record? I'm worried because I leave in just over 2 weeks and I don't want my $150 for priority service wasted.
I think you might have wasted ur money there....

2 weeks is, in my opinion, unlikely given your past history. But I guess as you have already applied, just wait and see!
Ughh, well I hope you're wrong about that. Worst case scenario, I'll just have to get an emergency passport and stay in Holland. I don't see how my case is so complicated. I wasn't deported or an overstayer, I didn't break any laws and I don't have any history with the UK besides this incident. My application seems to be pretty cut and dry but again maybe I'm just unaware of the procedure.

joh118
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Post by joh118 » Tue May 10, 2011 10:14 pm

it might take shorter, who knows? But the main reason why your case is "complicated" is because now that there is a black mark on your UK immigration history, (assuming you haven't been banned), the entry clearance officer will have to consider very carefully if you are indeed entering the UK for the purpose of a "visit". They will have to consider the what would make you have to return home after your visit (Eg, job, business, family) and also to make sure you won't enter the UK to perform.

can you describe what marks the Immigration officer put on your passport? Is it a stamp then a strike through?

bello_returns
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Post by bello_returns » Tue May 10, 2011 10:34 pm

joh118 wrote:it might take shorter, who knows? But the main reason why your case is "complicated" is because now that there is a black mark on your UK immigration history, (assuming you haven't been banned), the entry clearance officer will have to consider very carefully if you are indeed entering the UK for the purpose of a "visit". They will have to consider the what would make you have to return home after your visit (Eg, job, business, family) and also to make sure you won't enter the UK to perform.

can you describe what marks the Immigration officer put on your passport? Is it a stamp then a strike through?
http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/ ... _entry.jpg

The stamp looks identical to this (save for the note at the top) and has a cross in the square. Looks like it was done with a pen. I'd upload a photo of it but my passport is at the British Consulate at present.

bello_returns
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Post by bello_returns » Tue May 10, 2011 10:44 pm

joh118 wrote:it might take shorter, who knows? But the main reason why your case is "complicated" is because now that there is a black mark on your UK immigration history, (assuming you haven't been banned), the entry clearance officer will have to consider very carefully if you are indeed entering the UK for the purpose of a "visit". They will have to consider the what would make you have to return home after your visit (Eg, job, business, family) and also to make sure you won't enter the UK to perform.

can you describe what marks the Immigration officer put on your passport? Is it a stamp then a strike through?
Also, I thought it was the job of the officer to prove that I AM trying to get there to perform, not for me to disprove that I am not. Technically the only way they have of knowing that I'm going to perform is if I show up at the airport with something indicating such. I'm sure now my credibility is thrown into question but at the same time, if I'm taking the proper steps this time to gain entry clearance in a country from a country that doesnt require entry clearance for visits, won't that make me look like I've learned and I am correcting the mistake?

I dunno, the whole thing just seems a bit harsh. I feel like a criminal and I've never committed a crime in my life. Shouldn't your standing in your own country have SOMETHING to do with your credibility? The UK and the US are both a bit harsh. Banning someone from your country for defrauding the government is one thing but banning someone for not having the proper visa seems crazy. Again, I really don't think I was banned and I'm just venting my frustration at this point. I guess I'll just have to wait and see. I'm expecting be denied since they are so strict but hopefully they will have mercy and see that I am (or at least was) a naive traveler.

Mr Rusty
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Post by Mr Rusty » Wed May 11, 2011 3:35 am

bello_returns wrote:
joh118 wrote:it might take shorter, who knows? But the main reason why your case is "complicated" is because now that there is a black mark on your UK immigration history, (assuming you haven't been banned), the entry clearance officer will have to consider very carefully if you are indeed entering the UK for the purpose of a "visit". They will have to consider the what would make you have to return home after your visit (Eg, job, business, family) and also to make sure you won't enter the UK to perform.

can you describe what marks the Immigration officer put on your passport? Is it a stamp then a strike through?
http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/ ... _entry.jpg

The stamp looks identical to this (save for the note at the top) and has a cross in the square. Looks like it was done with a pen. I'd upload a photo of it but my passport is at the British Consulate at present.
Yes, the date stamp with a cross on it is just the standard refusal stamp, colloquially known in the trade as a 'hot cross bun'.
If the 'Consulate' is a main entry clearance office, they ought to be able to access the data about your refusal online. As the case was 5 months ago it should all be complete, so if you paid for a priority application you should know your fate pretty soon.

"Also, I thought it was the job of the officer to prove that I AM trying to get there to perform, not for me to disprove that I am not" - wrong, it's not the same as criminal proceedings, you have to satisfy the IO of your intentions. The refusal notice that your pal so capriciously binned would have included a phrase on the lines of "...therefore I am not satisfied that you are genuinely seeking entry to the UK merely as a visitor.."

.Also the man who escorted us onto the plane, as well as the man who looked after us assured us that this happens all the time and he almost made it seem like it was "no big deal" (which of course it IS a big deal), and that we are more than welcome to come back, we just have to have the right papers for what we're there for - sorry, but as I said before the only thing that counts is the written record. The guys who supervise you after you've been refused and escort you to the plane work for a subcontracted security company such as Group4 and know as much about immigration as a McDonald's burger-flipper.

Anyway, you shouldn't have long to wait. Please try to hang on to the paperwork this time and enlighten us as to the result

bello_returns
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Post by bello_returns » Wed May 11, 2011 6:45 am

Mr Rusty wrote:
bello_returns wrote:
joh118 wrote:it might take shorter, who knows? But the main reason why your case is "complicated" is because now that there is a black mark on your UK immigration history, (assuming you haven't been banned), the entry clearance officer will have to consider very carefully if you are indeed entering the UK for the purpose of a "visit". They will have to consider the what would make you have to return home after your visit (Eg, job, business, family) and also to make sure you won't enter the UK to perform.

can you describe what marks the Immigration officer put on your passport? Is it a stamp then a strike through?
http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/ ... _entry.jpg

The stamp looks identical to this (save for the note at the top) and has a cross in the square. Looks like it was done with a pen. I'd upload a photo of it but my passport is at the British Consulate at present.
Yes, the date stamp with a cross on it is just the standard refusal stamp, colloquially known in the trade as a 'hot cross bun'.
If the 'Consulate' is a main entry clearance office, they ought to be able to access the data about your refusal online. As the case was 5 months ago it should all be complete, so if you paid for a priority application you should know your fate pretty soon.

"Also, I thought it was the job of the officer to prove that I AM trying to get there to perform, not for me to disprove that I am not" - wrong, it's not the same as criminal proceedings, you have to satisfy the IO of your intentions. The refusal notice that your pal so capriciously binned would have included a phrase on the lines of "...therefore I am not satisfied that you are genuinely seeking entry to the UK merely as a visitor.."

.Also the man who escorted us onto the plane, as well as the man who looked after us assured us that this happens all the time and he almost made it seem like it was "no big deal" (which of course it IS a big deal), and that we are more than welcome to come back, we just have to have the right papers for what we're there for - sorry, but as I said before the only thing that counts is the written record. The guys who supervise you after you've been refused and escort you to the plane work for a subcontracted security company such as Group4 and know as much about immigration as a McDonald's burger-flipper.

Anyway, you shouldn't have long to wait. Please try to hang on to the paperwork this time and enlighten us as to the result
Thanks Mr. Rusty. I figured the escort didn't know what he was talking about. But again, the immigration officer did not tell us we were banned nor did it say that on my document. So does the "hot cross bun" mean I wasn't banned? Is there a different stamp for people who have a ban? I sent my application to the British Consulate in New York which I'm almost positive is the main US office. If not New York, then Washington D.C.

I do indeed remember the note saying the whole "i am not satisfied..." section. Definitely rings a bell. But piggybacking off what you said, I don't really see how the IO could prove what my intention is. After all, intentions are in your head. Now if this were a visit visa and I stated that I had an English girlfriend, then one could infer that I'm trying to gain entry as a visitor with the intent to marry. But how can I prove to an immigration officer that I am NOT going to do something? Here are the documents I sent in:

- Airline ticket to Amsterdam (departure AND return) with a note on it that said we want to ferry over to Newcastle but we are waiting to purchase these tickets until our visa is approved (which they instruct you to do).

- Recent paystubs showing that I have income, plus a note on my paystub with my employer's contact number just in case they need to verify anything.

- Hotel reservations in Newcastle

- My passport (the same one when I went the first time)

And then of course my biometrics, visa app, passport photo etc. I don't see what else I could have sent to prove I am genuinely looking to visit. I do not have a bank account because I like to deal primarily in cash because of bad experiences with banks. I do have a prepaid credit card and I only put money on it when I have to pay something online. I also left a note on my app explaining this and that I intend to bring cash, $500 at the very LEAST which will be put together with my friend's funds and I am NOT bringing my prepaid credit card to the UK as I use it strictly for bills. But again, me not having a bank account doesn't say anything about my intentions as a tourist. But again, all I can do is wait. I personally don't see why I shouldn't be granted a visa. It sounds to me like the UK is far more concerned with illegal workers, overstayers, and people applying for student visas and then not attending school. But its up to the officer, I suppose. I will let you all know as SOON as I do what they decided and why. And trust me, I will NOT be throwing anything away. hahaha.

---------------------------------------------

I've done alottttt of research since my refusal and I'd like more information on working in the field of immigration. I think I'll post a new topic so I don't digress from the original post.

Here's the topic:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 494#489494

Mr Rusty
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Post by Mr Rusty » Wed May 11, 2011 12:18 pm

The stamp in your passport just means that you have been refused entry. It's not within the remit of the IO who refused you to apply a ban, consideration is given whether or not to do so when you next seek entry or apply for a visa, which is the stage you're at now.

The actual ban arises under Para 320 of the Immigration Rules thus:-

"Grounds on which entry clearance or leave to enter the United Kingdom is to be refused.........
(7B)....... where the applicant has previously breached the UK's immigration laws by:
..........
(d) using Deception in an application for entry clearance, leave to enter or remain (whether successful or not);

unless the applicant:
.........
(vi) was removed or deported from the UK more than 10 years ago.;"


Mark the words I've highlighted in bold, which effectively means a mandatory refusal for the next 10 years (or 9 years 7 months).

Taken on its own the application you have put together this time seems reasonable, and likely to succeed. However, the extent to which your previous case counts against you remains to be seen. If the IO's report makes a big thing of your alleged deception, you're probably sunk.

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Post by bello_returns » Wed May 11, 2011 9:49 pm

Oh great. I just received this email.

Dear Applicant

Please be advised that further processing is required on your application and we will make a decision on your case at the earliest opportunity. The estimated processing time for your application has been revised and may now be up to 15 working days from today's date.

It is acknowledged that you purchased priority service. Priority service applications are processed ahead of other visa applications. Under normal circumstances, priority service applications are processed within 48 hours (not including weekends or public holidays) from day of receipt at UK Border Agency visa section in USA.

Your application has undergone an initial assessment, however further review is required. As indicated in the terms of service, in exceptional cases processing may take longer than 48 hours and your case has been identified as an exceptional case. Please note that we will continue to handle your case as expeditiously as possible. Please also be aware that the amount paid for the priority service, as well as visa fees, is not refundable in such cases.

You will receive a further e-mail advising you of the outcome of your application in due course. This e-mail will also provide you with details of your return package.

We are unable to respond to status enquiries. Further information on UK visa services is available at www.visainfoservices.com

Regards

UK Border Agency, New York



I seriously hope it doesnt take that long. How much can there be to verify with a visit visa?!?! This is one of the most nerve-wracking processes I've ever been through.

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Post by joh118 » Wed May 11, 2011 10:37 pm

You'd be suprised how complex a simple "visit visa" can be!

This is the IDI on Visit visas

it is 61 pages long.

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Post by vinny » Wed May 11, 2011 11:02 pm

If the deception wasn't used for an entry clearance application, then I think that, at most, the ban may be for one year.
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Post by Greenie » Thu May 12, 2011 10:24 am

vinny wrote:If the deception wasn't used for an entry clearance application, then I think that, at most, the ban may be for one year.
i agree

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Post by wf » Thu May 12, 2011 6:21 pm

I take it then that 'applying' for a visa on arrival is not classed as an entry clearance application - what is the differentiation?

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Post by Greenie » Thu May 12, 2011 7:36 pm

wf wrote:I take it then that 'applying' for a visa on arrival is not classed as an entry clearance application - what is the differentiation?
entry clearance is applied for at a British embassy abroad by visa nationals for all categories of visa and for both non visa nationals when a prior entry clearance is required for a specific category . they are then given leave to enter at the airport

Non visa nationals can seek leave to enter at the airport for a visit and therefore do not apply for entry clearance.

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Post by bello_returns » Sat May 14, 2011 1:04 am

Ok so, new question. Since my "priority service" application is going to take a maximum of 15 business days complete, my friend went ahead and got a new passport since his is NOT priority service and we have the exact same situation. He is going to pick his up on Monday. I am going to wait until the end of the week before we leave to hear anything and if I haven't I am going to get a new emergency passport as well. My question is:

Since previous UK refusals do not appear on Schengen systems, and in the event that I get a new passport as well, does that mean that the Dutch officials will have no knowledge of our previous refusal since new passports means no black stamp or "hot cross bun". I mean of course if its brought up, we won't lie about it, but I guess my question is in that specific situation, the UK refusal won't even be an issue right? Unless we were banned, and as I said before, I'm quite sure we were not banned from the UK. Pretty positive actually. I just want a smooth entry. We will also have our Dutch friend we're staying with at the airport in case of any trouble.

Also, does anyone know how strict Dutch immigration officers are? Is the process the same or similar as the UK? Again, I visited Iceland for a day directly after that UK incident and the passport control didn't even ask us any questions, they just asked for our return ticket, stamped our passport and let us go. Is that standard Schengen procedure or is that country by country? Technically, I haven't violated any Schengen rules so it wouldn't be an issue right?

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Post by joh118 » Sat May 14, 2011 11:46 am

bello_returns wrote:Ok so, new question. Since my "priority service" application is going to take a maximum of 15 business days complete, my friend went ahead and got a new passport since his is NOT priority service and we have the exact same situation. He is going to pick his up on Monday. I am going to wait until the end of the week before we leave to hear anything and if I haven't I am going to get a new emergency passport as well. My question is:

Since previous UK refusals do not appear on Schengen systems, and in the event that I get a new passport as well, does that mean that the Dutch officials will have no knowledge of our previous refusal since new passports means no black stamp or "hot cross bun". I mean of course if its brought up, we won't lie about it, but I guess my question is in that specific situation, the UK refusal won't even be an issue right? Unless we were banned, and as I said before, I'm quite sure we were not banned from the UK. Pretty positive actually. I just want a smooth entry. We will also have our Dutch friend we're staying with at the airport in case of any trouble.

Also, does anyone know how strict Dutch immigration officers are? Is the process the same or similar as the UK? Again, I visited Iceland for a day directly after that UK incident and the passport control didn't even ask us any questions, they just asked for our return ticket, stamped our passport and let us go. Is that standard Schengen procedure or is that country by country? Technically, I haven't violated any Schengen rules so it wouldn't be an issue right?
the dutch officials will not be able to tell that you have been refused from the UK before by looking at your new passports.

As you may now realise, UK immigration control is notoriously strict. Perhaps the strictist in Europe. However, that doesn't mean you should undermine other EU country's immigration control. You may be asked why you are travelling on an emergency passport.

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