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I don't agree with that because the OP recalls having it in writing that he used deception - "I no longer have the official document stating the refusal but two things I do remember is that ....... b) the document said we tried to use deception to enter the country" Whatever they stated verbally, it's what is on the refusal notice that counts, and if that says that he used deception he will be subject to a mandatory 10-year ban under Para 320 7B of the Immigration Rules when he next seeks entry to the UK or applies for a UK visa, however "alert" he is.joh118 wrote:Because of this incident, you will be subject to a closer scrutiny of your intentions when visiting the UK. Expect to be asked extra questions and just be more alert next time.
I think you were not banned .....
well, the outcome of his UK visit visa application will show up any bans he may have imposed.Mr Rusty wrote:joh118 wrote:Because of this incident, you will be subject to a closer scrutiny of your intentions when visiting the UK. Expect to be asked extra questions and just be more alert next time.
I think you were not banned .....
I don't agree with that because the OP recalls having it in writing that he used deception - "I no longer have the official document stating the refusal but two things I do remember is that ....... b) the document said we tried to use deception to enter the country" Whatever they stated verbally, it's what is on the refusal notice that counts, and if that says that he used deception he will be subject to a mandatory 10-year ban under Para 320 7B of the Immigration Rules when he next seeks entry to the UK or applies for a UK visa, however "alert" he is.
Yes, sorry I meant entry stamp. And also, yes I distinctly remember it using the term "deception" on the document but I also distinctly remember that it didn't say anything about being banned. He made the decision to go back in May pretty much the following day or two so had it explicitly said we were banned, we wouldn't have planned to go back.Mr Rusty wrote:joh118 wrote:Because of this incident, you will be subject to a closer scrutiny of your intentions when visiting the UK. Expect to be asked extra questions and just be more alert next time.
I think you were not banned .....
I don't agree with that because the OP recalls having it in writing that he used deception - "I no longer have the official document stating the refusal but two things I do remember is that ....... b) the document said we tried to use deception to enter the country" Whatever they stated verbally, it's what is on the refusal notice that counts, and if that says that he used deception he will be subject to a mandatory 10-year ban under Para 320 7B of the Immigration Rules when he next seeks entry to the UK or applies for a UK visa, however "alert" he is.
P.S. Re "Schengen Visa" are we confusing "visa" with "entry stamp"? I wouldn't imagine that US citizens have to get a visa before they travel to Iceland, he probably just got an entry stamp at the border. If he subsequently returned to USA he left the Schengen area, and so in effect if he travels to Holland he will be seeking entry to the Schengen area all over again. It will be up to the Dutch whether they let him in or not, and they may well take notice of his previous refusal in the UK in making their decision
bello_returns wrote:We are both solo musicians and we set up a European tour in UK, Holland, Belgium and Germany. Our first show was to be Manchester. .... My friend has performed in the UK and Europe prior to this incident.
I had done a little research and decided it would be best not to mention our performances. NOT for the purpose of deceiving the immigration officers, but because I read that US citizens could enter the UK on tourist OR business purposes without a visa. I assumed business meant working. We were detained for about 7 hrs and during the interview, she explained to us that we needed visas to perform. We told her we were not aware of that and we thought since we weren't being paid money, we didn't need them. She also said that nowhere in the emails does it say anything about sight-seeing or visiting. But we definitely did intend to do all the stupid touristy stuff. The emails were printed just in case the club was fradulent (we've had that happen before) to prove that we were in contact with someone who booked us.
Anyway, long story short, we were refused entry. I no longer have the official document stating the refusal but two things I do remember is that the document said we tried to use deception to enter the country. .
I did NOT know what I was doing. That's exactly the problem, I was a naive traveler and I resent your statement. Why would I travel halfway around the world to knowingly deceive a British immigration officer over an unpaid performance? Had I known that all we had to do was apply for an entertainer visa, then we would have done so.pennylessinindia wrote:
I think it is all a bit far fetched... you knew what you were doing and tried to get away with it now you have lost the documents??
Very soon you will know if you were considered to have used deception as you will either be issued or refused
Thanks for that link. When I read that, it said that individuals MAY be banned if they do these things. This was 5 months ago so my memory isn't crystal clear but I would've remembered reading or being told that I was banned from the country, especially since I've always wanted to go to the UK. That would've been something that stuck for me. If I wasn't banned, it was probably because my offense wasn't really all that bad (in my opinion anyway). I mean yes they use the term "deception" but I would think that deception in terms of using a fake passport or false documents is far worse than just not saying something. I always thought deception was an intentional act. Yes, we didn't initially mention that one of the things we would be doing there would be performing but again, we didn't mention LOTS of stuff we intended to do. Hell, I wanted to go down to Fistral Beach at some point, but I didnt say that. Is that "deception"?joh118 wrote:Chapter 62 - Re-Entry Bans may be of help.
I think you might have wasted ur money there....bello_returns wrote:Thanks for that link. When I read that, it said that individuals MAY be banned if they do these things. This was 5 months ago so my memory isn't crystal clear but I would've remembered reading or being told that I was banned from the country, especially since I've always wanted to go to the UK. That would've been something that stuck for me. If I wasn't banned, it was probably because my offense wasn't really all that bad (in my opinion anyway). I mean yes they use the term "deception" but I would think that deception in terms of using a fake passport or false documents is far worse than just not saying something. I always thought deception was an intentional act. Yes, we didn't initially mention that one of the things we would be doing there would be performing but again, we didn't mention LOTS of stuff we intended to do. Hell, I wanted to go down to Fistral Beach at some point, but I didnt say that. Is that "deception"?joh118 wrote:Chapter 62 - Re-Entry Bans may be of help.
I have another question. I am leaving for Amsterdam on May 26th. I applied for a visa and paid for priority service which is supposed to be 48 hour decision. My package was delivered to the British consulate yesterday. However, I read somewhere that if you have a previous refusal, it may take longer than 48 hrs because they have to request the info about the case from the UK and they send it snail mail. However in this age with fax machines and emails, I don't see how that's even true. Does anyone know how long visa applications take when you have a previous refusal on your record? I'm worried because I leave in just over 2 weeks and I don't want my $150 for priority service wasted.
Ughh, well I hope you're wrong about that. Worst case scenario, I'll just have to get an emergency passport and stay in Holland. I don't see how my case is so complicated. I wasn't deported or an overstayer, I didn't break any laws and I don't have any history with the UK besides this incident. My application seems to be pretty cut and dry but again maybe I'm just unaware of the procedure.joh118 wrote:I think you might have wasted ur money there....bello_returns wrote:Thanks for that link. When I read that, it said that individuals MAY be banned if they do these things. This was 5 months ago so my memory isn't crystal clear but I would've remembered reading or being told that I was banned from the country, especially since I've always wanted to go to the UK. That would've been something that stuck for me. If I wasn't banned, it was probably because my offense wasn't really all that bad (in my opinion anyway). I mean yes they use the term "deception" but I would think that deception in terms of using a fake passport or false documents is far worse than just not saying something. I always thought deception was an intentional act. Yes, we didn't initially mention that one of the things we would be doing there would be performing but again, we didn't mention LOTS of stuff we intended to do. Hell, I wanted to go down to Fistral Beach at some point, but I didnt say that. Is that "deception"?joh118 wrote:Chapter 62 - Re-Entry Bans may be of help.
I have another question. I am leaving for Amsterdam on May 26th. I applied for a visa and paid for priority service which is supposed to be 48 hour decision. My package was delivered to the British consulate yesterday. However, I read somewhere that if you have a previous refusal, it may take longer than 48 hrs because they have to request the info about the case from the UK and they send it snail mail. However in this age with fax machines and emails, I don't see how that's even true. Does anyone know how long visa applications take when you have a previous refusal on your record? I'm worried because I leave in just over 2 weeks and I don't want my $150 for priority service wasted.
2 weeks is, in my opinion, unlikely given your past history. But I guess as you have already applied, just wait and see!
http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/ ... _entry.jpgjoh118 wrote:it might take shorter, who knows? But the main reason why your case is "complicated" is because now that there is a black mark on your UK immigration history, (assuming you haven't been banned), the entry clearance officer will have to consider very carefully if you are indeed entering the UK for the purpose of a "visit". They will have to consider the what would make you have to return home after your visit (Eg, job, business, family) and also to make sure you won't enter the UK to perform.
can you describe what marks the Immigration officer put on your passport? Is it a stamp then a strike through?
Also, I thought it was the job of the officer to prove that I AM trying to get there to perform, not for me to disprove that I am not. Technically the only way they have of knowing that I'm going to perform is if I show up at the airport with something indicating such. I'm sure now my credibility is thrown into question but at the same time, if I'm taking the proper steps this time to gain entry clearance in a country from a country that doesnt require entry clearance for visits, won't that make me look like I've learned and I am correcting the mistake?joh118 wrote:it might take shorter, who knows? But the main reason why your case is "complicated" is because now that there is a black mark on your UK immigration history, (assuming you haven't been banned), the entry clearance officer will have to consider very carefully if you are indeed entering the UK for the purpose of a "visit". They will have to consider the what would make you have to return home after your visit (Eg, job, business, family) and also to make sure you won't enter the UK to perform.
can you describe what marks the Immigration officer put on your passport? Is it a stamp then a strike through?
Yes, the date stamp with a cross on it is just the standard refusal stamp, colloquially known in the trade as a 'hot cross bun'.bello_returns wrote:http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/ ... _entry.jpgjoh118 wrote:it might take shorter, who knows? But the main reason why your case is "complicated" is because now that there is a black mark on your UK immigration history, (assuming you haven't been banned), the entry clearance officer will have to consider very carefully if you are indeed entering the UK for the purpose of a "visit". They will have to consider the what would make you have to return home after your visit (Eg, job, business, family) and also to make sure you won't enter the UK to perform.
can you describe what marks the Immigration officer put on your passport? Is it a stamp then a strike through?
The stamp looks identical to this (save for the note at the top) and has a cross in the square. Looks like it was done with a pen. I'd upload a photo of it but my passport is at the British Consulate at present.
Thanks Mr. Rusty. I figured the escort didn't know what he was talking about. But again, the immigration officer did not tell us we were banned nor did it say that on my document. So does the "hot cross bun" mean I wasn't banned? Is there a different stamp for people who have a ban? I sent my application to the British Consulate in New York which I'm almost positive is the main US office. If not New York, then Washington D.C.Mr Rusty wrote:Yes, the date stamp with a cross on it is just the standard refusal stamp, colloquially known in the trade as a 'hot cross bun'.bello_returns wrote:http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/ ... _entry.jpgjoh118 wrote:it might take shorter, who knows? But the main reason why your case is "complicated" is because now that there is a black mark on your UK immigration history, (assuming you haven't been banned), the entry clearance officer will have to consider very carefully if you are indeed entering the UK for the purpose of a "visit". They will have to consider the what would make you have to return home after your visit (Eg, job, business, family) and also to make sure you won't enter the UK to perform.
can you describe what marks the Immigration officer put on your passport? Is it a stamp then a strike through?
The stamp looks identical to this (save for the note at the top) and has a cross in the square. Looks like it was done with a pen. I'd upload a photo of it but my passport is at the British Consulate at present.
If the 'Consulate' is a main entry clearance office, they ought to be able to access the data about your refusal online. As the case was 5 months ago it should all be complete, so if you paid for a priority application you should know your fate pretty soon.
"Also, I thought it was the job of the officer to prove that I AM trying to get there to perform, not for me to disprove that I am not" - wrong, it's not the same as criminal proceedings, you have to satisfy the IO of your intentions. The refusal notice that your pal so capriciously binned would have included a phrase on the lines of "...therefore I am not satisfied that you are genuinely seeking entry to the UK merely as a visitor.."
.Also the man who escorted us onto the plane, as well as the man who looked after us assured us that this happens all the time and he almost made it seem like it was "no big deal" (which of course it IS a big deal), and that we are more than welcome to come back, we just have to have the right papers for what we're there for - sorry, but as I said before the only thing that counts is the written record. The guys who supervise you after you've been refused and escort you to the plane work for a subcontracted security company such as Group4 and know as much about immigration as a McDonald's burger-flipper.
Anyway, you shouldn't have long to wait. Please try to hang on to the paperwork this time and enlighten us as to the result
i agreevinny wrote:If the deception wasn't used for an entry clearance application, then I think that, at most, the ban may be for one year.
entry clearance is applied for at a British embassy abroad by visa nationals for all categories of visa and for both non visa nationals when a prior entry clearance is required for a specific category . they are then given leave to enter at the airportwf wrote:I take it then that 'applying' for a visa on arrival is not classed as an entry clearance application - what is the differentiation?
the dutch officials will not be able to tell that you have been refused from the UK before by looking at your new passports.bello_returns wrote:Ok so, new question. Since my "priority service" application is going to take a maximum of 15 business days complete, my friend went ahead and got a new passport since his is NOT priority service and we have the exact same situation. He is going to pick his up on Monday. I am going to wait until the end of the week before we leave to hear anything and if I haven't I am going to get a new emergency passport as well. My question is:
Since previous UK refusals do not appear on Schengen systems, and in the event that I get a new passport as well, does that mean that the Dutch officials will have no knowledge of our previous refusal since new passports means no black stamp or "hot cross bun". I mean of course if its brought up, we won't lie about it, but I guess my question is in that specific situation, the UK refusal won't even be an issue right? Unless we were banned, and as I said before, I'm quite sure we were not banned from the UK. Pretty positive actually. I just want a smooth entry. We will also have our Dutch friend we're staying with at the airport in case of any trouble.
Also, does anyone know how strict Dutch immigration officers are? Is the process the same or similar as the UK? Again, I visited Iceland for a day directly after that UK incident and the passport control didn't even ask us any questions, they just asked for our return ticket, stamped our passport and let us go. Is that standard Schengen procedure or is that country by country? Technically, I haven't violated any Schengen rules so it wouldn't be an issue right?