Denmark to re-impose border controls

[ca.funke]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13366047

[MSH]

Another attempt at isolating our country even further from the rest of Europe by the neo-nazi Danish People's Party.

The same party who just last week demanded all foreigners SUSPECTED of being gang members in police databases DEPORTED without ever seing the inside of a court room..

No judge, no court hearing, no appeal options.

Denmark is no longer a democracy under the rule of law and haven't been for the past decade.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

There was also this from the Guardian, about other Schengen members. Not sure what this is really about. Some lovely quotes though.

But the Danish government promised that border and customs checks would not extend to passport controls, and that this remained compliant with Schengen.

You have to wonder what they plan to check if it is not passports...

[koded]

Of course not passport control, facial profiling. Once they suspect you as non eu citizen they will ask for your passport. I think Danish immigration officer and law enforcement officer are known for this. I heard even taxi driver in Denmark works for the police. Once they suspect you as immigrant without documents they will alert the police.

[MSH]

Of course not passport control, facial profiling. Once they suspect you as non eu citizen they will ask for your passport. I think Danish immigration officer and law enforcement officer are known for this. I heard even taxi driver in Denmark works for the police. Once they suspect you as immigrant without documents they will alert the police.

Recently, the press here in Denmark reported how Danish police patrolling the trains between Sweden and Denmark asked passengers who looked 'foreign' for passports..

Only problem was that no Scandinavian citizens have had to produce a passport when crossing a border between the Scandinavian countries since 1959 due to a passport-waiver agreement.

So, all the Swedish citizens of African or Arab descent who tried to explain the Danish police officers that they were in fact Swedish citizens and not illegal immigrants but couldn't produce a passport was arrested and detained until the Swedish government and the Danish and Swedish media got wind of the whole shambles.

MSH.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Do Danish/Swedish citizens not have to carry an ID card with them, as Germans do in Germany or Dutch in the Netherlands?

[86ti]

Germans do not necessarily have to except in certain circumstances as explained in the link. Hence, although one is not (always) required to carry ID one is still required to hold such a document and produce it when requested. The latter may be difficult for a foreigner far from home.

[ca.funke]

Do Danish/Swedish citizens not have to carry an ID card with them, as Germans do in Germany or Dutch in the Netherlands?

Adding to the 86ti´s link, which is in German, I´ll explain how it works in Germany: In Germany you have to "possess" ID, rather than carrying it with you at all times.

Everything you have control over is deemed in your possession, read the full definition >>here<<. As such it´s perfectly OK, in Germany, to leave your ID at home or in the hotel, because everything you keep there is deemed in your possession.

Should police ask you to produce ID, you can say "it is at home", or "it is in my hotelroom". If there is grounds for suspicion, police can take you to the place where your ID is kept to establish your identity. In this case you are not guilty of an offence, and not deemed to be "arrested". (Although, of course, this is not exactly practical.)

I lived in Germany for about 20 years, I never carried ID with me. I was checked once (I looked similar to a guy who committed a robbery nearby), but only through talking to the officers for a few seconds they established that they didn´t believe it was me and let me go immediately.

Only exception that I´m aware of is in >>§1 section 1 of the "Passgesetz"<<, which sais that when crossing the border you have to carry the passport with you.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I guess my point is slightly different: as soon as the police can legally ask for your ID card whenever they want, then there is very little legal recourse. They will tend to quietly ask the foreigner looking people more often, I guess on the theory that they are more likely to be illegal.

This happens around German train stations. If you are white, in my experience, you never get asked. And you can watch them "controlling" the more Turkish looking people.

As you point out Christian, you are not required to have your ID on you as long as you are close to it. But once you are on a train, you are away from your ID.

The same issue happens with the UK/Irish free travel area. In theory UK/Irish citizens do not need to carry a passport. But how do you prove you are UK/Irish if challenged?


As an aside, here is similar story from the US: Trying to refuse to cooperate with a "voluntary" immigration control as well as the original story.

[ca.funke]

...as soon as the police can legally ask for your ID card whenever they want...

Hi Directive,

again I can only speak for Germany, where the rules are state-matter, but I guess it´s similar throughout the states.

Police are not allowed to ask "whenever they want". It´s clearly described in the police-law, for example the police-law of >>North Rhine-Westphalia<<, in which cases they are allowed to ask for your ID.

If they ask you for ID in one of the prescribed cases and you don´t have it with you, they can keep you for up to 12 hours, not more. Should they really decide to keep you, they will have to give a damn-good reason as to why they deemed this necessary.

But once you are on a train, you are away from your ID.

That´s why 12 hours are the maximum they´re allowed to keep someone: Even if you are in >>Berchtesgaden, and claim your ID is in Flensburg<<, the distance can still be covered in 12 hours. They´d just have to think it´s really necessary to go through the hassle, and justify it well.

When crossing the border it´s conveniently obligatory to carry ID - therefore the only excuse not acceptable is "my ID is at home, which is abroad".

Like I said before: I was checked once in my life, and I believe they had a good reason. And this includes roaming Germany with my Arabic wife. Also at the border between Switzerland and Germany, where carrying ID is obligatory and at least customs-checks are still ongoing, so far we have a wave-through-rate of 100%! And we cross this border roughly once a week...

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

It is interesting. I never got controlled in 7 years living in Germany. But I saw systematic ID contols of mostly non-white people in the areas near, but outside of, the train stations. Bayern may also have a different set of rules for checking ID.

I talked with a police officer and a Staatsanwalt in detail about this at a party. They did not indicate the ID checks were so limited as your link suggests, but thought it was fine to just carry a photocopy of my passport information page in my wallet when I was near home.

[ca.funke]

...of mostly non-white people in the areas near, but outside of, the train stations...

In NRW the "areas near, but outside of, the train stations" would be covered:

(1) Die Polizei kann die Identität einer Person feststellen,
(...)
3. wenn sie sich in einer Verkehrs- oder Versorgungsanlage oder -einrichtung, einem öffentlichen Verkehrsmittel, Amtsgebäude oder einem anderen besonders gefährdeten Objekt oder in dessen unmittelbarer Nähe aufhält und Tatsachen die Annahme rechtfertigen, dass in oder an Objekten dieser Art Straftaten begangen werden sollen, durch die Personen oder diese Objekte gefährdet sind, und dies auf Grund der Gefährdungslage oder auf die Person bezogener Anhaltspunkte erforderlich ist,
(...)

Police may establish the ID of a person, who is in or in direct proximity of a specifically endangered place such as a transport-hub (...), and there is a justifiable possibility of crimes against that place...

The "mostly non-white people" of course wouldn´t be covered, but sadly that´s never verifiable.

All I can say that my wife, looking quite Arabic, never got checked, travelling with or without me...