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5 years for ILR rule implemented

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jayj
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Post by jayj » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:27 pm

[quote]i'm sorry guys, but i do have a feeling that the immigrants are just about deserving what they got.

Why do you say that Nonothing?

nonothing
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Post by nonothing » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:48 pm

if we can't be organised and fight for our own rights, we deserve being beaten.

do you know how many people are affected and how many of them did really fight?

even if among those are fighting, do you know how difficult to organise them?

first2last4
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Post by first2last4 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:33 pm

I regret to chose britain to immigrate. If only I come across other better opportunity I would'nt hesitate to quit.
Last edited by first2last4 on Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Knowledge which is concealed is lost -Hadith

WP_Holder_05_2002
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I agree to nonothing

Post by WP_Holder_05_2002 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:30 am

We should work together and try our best for our rights. If we can't fight for our rights in this country then there is no use to live here. We should go back home, if we have no courage and want to suffer in silence.

I have signed petition myself and asked many friends of mine (the people who are already on work permit on HSMP), unfortunately, they are just worry that if they protest, they may suffer some consequences. We can't win this way.

I am going to participate as volunteer on 23rd July.

PLEASE PLEASE COME THERE AND WORK TOGETHER. THERE IS OLD PROVED SAYING "UNITY IS STRENGTH".
Last edited by WP_Holder_05_2002 on Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

WP_Holder_05_2002
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The response of my MP

Post by WP_Holder_05_2002 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:41 am

Thank you for your email. I do understand what you say - several other
constituents have contacted me about the same issue and I have written
to the Home Office on their behalf. If you let me know you want me to, I
will send you a copy of the reply I got.

I have taken careful note of all the points you make, and will bear them
in mind when discussing or voting on this matter in future.

In the meantime, if you have any residency issues that you feel I can
help with, please do not hesitate to contact me, and I will try to help
if I can.


Yours sincerely,

Andrew Slaughter


I have personally met Andrew sometime ago and I am sure that he is very nice person and he will work for justice. Please write to your MPs. The majority of Labour MPs are very good like Andrew and they will help us (it was only Mr Charles Clark and Company who had no brain If he would be competent enough why would he be sacked by PM).

ssi
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Re: The response of my MP

Post by ssi » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:01 am

WP_Holder_05_2002 wrote:I have personally met Andrew sometime ago and I am sure that he is very nice person and he will work for justice.
Did you meet him re ILR45 campaign? If not, it may be useful to meet again. It's one thing when a kind person gives a promise on paper, and the sense of obligation is much stronger when a promise is given while looking into soneone's eyes.

I emailed you a mobile number for Sunday, so that you could find the stall in case if it's not readily visible.

Many thanks for your enthusiasm!

tarzan
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parliamentary committee voting

Post by tarzan » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:04 pm

Friends,

dont know if you were informed before, we have lost the vote in the parliamentary committee 6 to 9. :((

this is the message from Nick Clegg MP, shadow home secretary of Liberal Party. interesting to read the discussion from the link below.

-------------------------
Dear....

Thank you for contacting me regarding the Government’s Statutory Instrument 1016: Statement of Changes to Immigration Rules.

The Liberal Democrats ensured the Government debated this very important issue in committee on June 20th when we forced a vote on the proposed rule change.

In committee, I stressed to the Immigration Minister Liam Byrne that whilst, in principle, the Liberal Democrats have no particular objection to extending the qualifying period for indefinite leave to remain, the retrospective effect is extremely unfair to those who have came to this country in good faith and established their lives here. Many such people have planned their lives, including mortgages, education arrangements and employment contracts around the four year rule, only to have their lives turned upside down on the eve of settlement.

On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I urged the Minister to put in place transitional arrangements for those affected. Sadly the Minister did not respond to his suggestions, nor was he able to provide a satisfactory explanation concerning the lack of transitional arrangements.

With regard to the change in rules for trainee doctors and dentists, I stressed the need for greater consultation with the BMA and other interest groups. He emphasised concerns from within the medical profession regarding the problems the new rules would create in employing sufficiently qualified and experienced doctors, particularly in specialist fields.

Click here to read the debate in full: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 620s01.htm

The Government won the vote at committee, allowing the new provisions to take effect immediately. However, the Liberal Democrats intend to keep quizzing the Government on the justification of the retrospective effect of this rule change, and I shall keep you updated on any further developments.

Yours sincerely
Nick Clegg

----------------------

ssi
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Post by ssi » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:17 pm

tarzan, WP_Holder_05_2002, I added these letters from your MPs to http://www.vbsi.org.uk/index.php?page=r ... om_the_mps , if you do not mind.
Everybody, please send any info you might find useful for the campaign to <info at vbsi.org.uk>.
Last edited by ssi on Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

rg1
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Post by rg1 » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:43 am

I too got same reply from Nick Clegg.

chibuya
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Post by chibuya » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:27 am

May I ask- are we going to take legal actions?

Which law firm we are going to use?

Is VBSI going to take the lead?

WP_Holder_05_2002
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Re: parliamentary committee voting

Post by WP_Holder_05_2002 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:29 pm

[quote="tarzan"]Friends,

dont know if you were informed before, we have lost the vote in the parliamentary committee 6 to 9. :((

this is the message from Nick Clegg MP, shadow home secretary of Liberal Party. interesting to read the discussion from the link below.

-------------------------


[color=blue][b]There are MPs who agree that this retrospective change is very unfair. There are political leaders who do not find this change of any use to the government.
In my opinion the government try to get political objective by making the legal immigrants scapegoat.

In year 2006/07, there will be almost NO ILR to HSMP & Work Permit Holders. It means no passport (naturalisation) to HSMP & Work Permit Holders in 2007/08 and as Naturalisation takes more time than 12 months, there will be reduced number os approved application for naturlaisation in 2008/09.
Next election Date 2010 and government will be able to show control over borders.... what a game.. isn't it?

Is there any other use of this change... not at all...

[/b][/color]

alien
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long post! its the law, gov!

Post by alien » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:12 pm

First of all, apologies for a long post. I have been kept in touch with developments by a poster to this board and I thought it was about time I contributed something.

I have been an employer who has pushed staff through the work permit scheme. Also I have had friends who have done battle with the work permit scheme, including obtaining ILR and citizenship. My old office was some 200 metres from Lunar House in Croydon and a while back I had a friend who was a case worker there. So I'm aware of some of the horrors involved. My background is in marketing, but I have a basic legal training. I have also lived and worked in Asia - so have experience of the way other countries process "aliens".

So let's be clear. I think its jolly decent of you people who generally get educated at your own (or your own country's) expense and then in a mad moment decide to come to the UK so you can pay tax to keep the lazy Brits idle. In the case of London, quite why you'd want to spend more than a quid for a journey in a bus when in the 30C heat all they can do to keep it cool is paint the roof white, I don't know.

Anyway, I don't like the change that has been made because it is unfair. It is also commercially stupid for "UK plc" to tinker around like this. There is a real global market for skills and this won't help the UK as an importer of such skills.

Now for the reality as I see it.

The rule change - really retrospective?

Many of the posts refer to the retrospective nature of the change. This is a wobbly argument. I'm sure everybody here is convinced it is - but people here are not the ones to be convinced. The government constantly changes rules and regulations which might impact on the decisions people made a few years back. The budget is an obvious example - changes to taxation rules means that company investment decisions, personal tax planning (eg through trusts) with hindsight might have been done differently. The government always reserves the right to change policy.

I think it would only be truly a retrospective change if applicants were told that the rule would be 4 years for them when they applied - and now that it is changed to 5. The reality is that at the time of joining the HSMP the 4 year rule was only applicable to people that had achieved 4 years. It was not a rule that was applicable to people joining the scheme at the time they joined it.

I believe it is "unfair" because no doubt the government were aware that the 4 year rule was a motivator for people to join the scheme. I think a transitional arrangement would seem fairer.

Political campaign
For the most part, British people think there are too many foreigners hanging around (except when a Polish plumber fixes their tap) and its British people that vote for politicians.

I'm sure some politicians support the campaign out of real conviction but they are also masters of saying what people want to hear.

Despite the march, EDMs etc., this has not reached a critical mass of public concern and I don't think it will. Unless some "sob" story of some nice looking foreign doctor - much loved by his community - and about to be kicked out by the brutal Home Office can be found and hits the headlines I think the political campaign by itself is probably doomed.

Legal issues
I have read some of the posts including part of a dialogue with Stephen Kong. I would always defer to the qualified lawyers here, but this is my view as a non-lawyer with some legal knowledge.

This government has a habit of being caught out by the courts. As mentioned previously, there is a process called "Judicial Review" where courts can be asked to intervene in the decisions of public bodies/government departments. Recent examples include the failure of local health authorities to prescribe certain cancer drugs and the Belmarsh prisoners' case (suspected terrorists).

It is politically awkward to lose a case. In my opinion a credible legal threat is more likely to make the government change its mind than normal campaigning.

Judicial Review must be started quickly - 3 months is the usual time limit though a specialist lawyer would have to advise exactly when this runs from - it is not so simple.

There are various grounds for challenge - a simple example being that the public body has acted outside its power or illegally. This could be because of a breach of Human Rights. Now for the "Human Rights" thing. I don't feel this is the strongest case. "Human Rights" are often banded around - this is the way I look at it.

Human Rights Angle
The Human Rights Act 1998 incorporates the European Convention of Human Rights into UK law. The ECHR consists of articles - you must "choose your article" clearly. Each article is defined and there is a body of case law (ie cases that have been decided before) which make it clearer which claims are likely to succeed. I can only see 2 that are related to this situation that might be applicable.

Article 7 offers protection against "retrospective" actions - but this is only in the context of making criminal an act that was not criminal at the time the act was performed.

Article 8 is the "right to respect for private and family life". I think within the human rights thing, this offers more hope. It is a "qualified" right - not an absolute one. This means that in certain circumstances and with good reason the government can interfere with this right. You would have to show that not only are your rights under this Article are being breached but that this was without good reason - ie the government was acting disproportionately in pursuit of its legitimate aims. Such aims are defined in the Article. I feel the case under Article 8 is also weak - the government does have aims that seem to fall inside the terms of the Article and people have a remedy - you can simply apply for a year's extension. I realise this means staying with a job for another year - but its quite a long way from saying that the government is infringing human rights by "breaking up families" and that its action is disproportionate....

Other grounds for JR
There are other grounds for JR. Irrationality, unreasonableness, unfairness are all woolly concepts that come into this. Maybe Stephen Kong is considering JR on one of these grounds on the basis of the "retrospective" contention. If he is reading this, it would be good to have his comments.

There seems to be an "emerging doctrine" of "Legitimate Expectation". It means you can have grounds for JR if a public body breaks a promise of some sort. This CAN be an implied promise. But it must come from the body you're complaining about. If for example an immigration lawyer advised you that on getting your 4 year permit you'd be sure of ILR without further hassle then you'd have an "expectation", perhaps even an "understandable expectation" but it wouldn't be "legitimate". If the Home Office's website promised this as part of its HSMP material then I think it would be "legitimate" - its somewhat akin to a contract. It does rather come down to the facts - what representations were made to people by the government when they joined the HSMP.

Of course sometimes the promises aren't so clear - policies are established which cause people to make decisions only to find that the policy has changed. The question is to what extent it can be implied by a policy that the policy itself or another policy won't be changed. Can a policy drive an expectation? Can people have a legitimate expectation that a policy change won't cause them to lose a benefit they were expecting as a result of decisions they made whilst the old policy was in force? If a lawyer is reading this, I believe interesting cases include R v Secretary of State for the Home Department ex parte Asif Khan and R v Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Foods ex parte Hamble Fisheries (Offshore) Ltd. Amongst other points, these cases address issues of whether a legitimate expectation arises when someone relies (to their detriment) on a government policy which is then changed. There is a suggestion that unless there is an overriding public interest an enforceable legitimate expection can arise. A lawyer specialising in this area would know all the relevent cases and be able to advise the latest thinking.

In summary, as I've already stated I think the pure "retrospective" argument is flawed in principle. Legally I feel its in trouble also - it seems to be outside of Article 7 of the ECHR. In any case there is little legal reason why parliament cannot pass retrospective legislation - eg as in the case of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmah_Oil ... d_Advocate and the War Damages Act 1965. Also the War Crimes Act 1991 is a more recent example of retrospective-type legislation. BUT I think there could be a good case when argued on the grounds of a failure to meet "legitimate expectation" which though related is subtly different.

Be aware, though, its a fine line. For constitutional reasons Courts are reluctant to become involved in any discussion of the merits of the policy itself. This is a "separation of powers" issue mentioned by an earlier poster.

Legal campaign
If people in this group are serious about a legal action, then I think you should raise enough money in the first place to get a legal opinion from a specialist lawyer experienced in judicial review matters. This is not necessarily the same specialism as immigration law - remember its the lawfulness of the regulations that is being challenged - not a decision under those rules. Alternatively a non-specialist lawyer would no doubt consult with an appropriately experienced barrister. Based on his answer and an assessment of the likelihood of a positive outcome you can decide whether its worth financing the JR itself.

I have only been able to identify a few pointers - maybe the Human Rights grounds are stronger than I suppose - or I've missed other avenues.

I suspect the government didn't decide against transitional arrangements on principle - probably they were just too careless to care. And now it would be seen as a "U-turn" to change their minds. It might not be necessary to go all the way with a JR - a credible legal threat might be enough to push them into deciding that the "most comfortable" route would be to relent.

Conclusion
I think as a group you should get some proper legal advice. You don't have to drop the political campaigning - but reading through the posts I don't think the legal case has been properly evaluated. I've gone as far as I can with the resources I have (and I'm working remotely from Taiwan).

Good luck!


easylife4me
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Post by easylife4me » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:23 am

Immigrants step up protest at law

The rally follows a Houses of Parliament demonstration
Immigrant workers are stepping up their protest against changes to immigration laws, with a rally at London's Chinatown on Sunday.
A policy change in April means immigrant workers must now wait five rather than four years before they can apply for settlement in Britain.

Protesters said it created uncertainty for more than 400,000 legal workers.

On Monday they will present a petition with 10,000 names to the prime minister at Downing Street.

'More stable life'

Immigrant workers contribute more than £1bn to the UK economy said campaign organisers, including the North London Chinese Association and the Voice of Britain's Skilled Immigrants.

More than 50 MPs have signed an early day motion condemning the legal change.

Protesters are due to present their concerns to immigration minister Liam Byrne on Tuesday.

They claim it is "unfair" to existing Work Permit and Highly Skilled Migrant Programme Visa holders, who came to the UK on the understanding they would be able to apply for settlement and begin a more stable life after four years.

The Home Office said the changes brought the UK "in line with the European norm for these purposes".

The rally follows a demonstration outside the Houses of Parliament in June.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5207534.stm
THANKS

a11
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Re: The response of my MP

Post by a11 » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:52 am

Hi WP_Holder_05_2002,

I am one of those who wrote to Mr Slaughter before. I have recently sent him a detailed critique of the HO's response. Have heard from him since then...

a11
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Post by a11 » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:58 am

My apologies to everyone who tried to find us in Leicester Square yesterday. It proved very difficult to collect signatures there because most people were foreign tourists, so we moved to Chinatown to join forces with NCLA instead, where the rally was very successful (more than a 1000 signatures collected in 3 hours). The petitions will be handed over to 10 Downing Street at noon today in the presence of a number of MPs and media representatives.

We were popping in to Leicester Square from time to time to try and catch up with people responding to our ad, but we are aware that we missed some willing volunteers and wasted their time. I am really sorry about that.

a11
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Post by a11 » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:01 am

chibuya wrote:May I ask- are we going to take legal actions?

Which law firm we are going to use?

Is VBSI going to take the lead?
We are working out the JR route too and will let you know more about that as soon as the things get a bit clearer with the Minister's position on the issue - after his meeting with us tomorrow.

alien
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Post by alien » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:45 am

a11 wrote:
chibuya wrote:May I ask- are we going to take legal actions?

Which law firm we are going to use?

Is VBSI going to take the lead?
We are working out the JR route too and will let you know more about that as soon as the things get a bit clearer with the Minister's position on the issue - after his meeting with us tomorrow.
Surely you should know the legal position BEFORE you meet the minister...??

You say you are working on the JR route to.... what does that mean? How far have you got and why do you feel you cannot reveal this progress until after the meeting?

chibuya
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Post by chibuya » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:37 pm

I donot think the next one should be in China town again - one reason is we need to get people from all the background involeved
the other reason is there is a danger that Chinese people become the target of goverment as they are making troubles!
easylife4me wrote:Immigrants step up protest at law

The rally follows a Houses of Parliament demonstration
Immigrant workers are stepping up their protest against changes to immigration laws, with a rally at London's Chinatown on Sunday.
A policy change in April means immigrant workers must now wait five rather than four years before they can apply for settlement in Britain.

Protesters said it created uncertainty for more than 400,000 legal workers.

On Monday they will present a petition with 10,000 names to the prime minister at Downing Street.

'More stable life'

Immigrant workers contribute more than £1bn to the UK economy said campaign organisers, including the North London Chinese Association and the Voice of Britain's Skilled Immigrants.

More than 50 MPs have signed an early day motion condemning the legal change.

Protesters are due to present their concerns to immigration minister Liam Byrne on Tuesday.

They claim it is "unfair" to existing Work Permit and Highly Skilled Migrant Programme Visa holders, who came to the UK on the understanding they would be able to apply for settlement and begin a more stable life after four years.

The Home Office said the changes brought the UK "in line with the European norm for these purposes".

The rally follows a demonstration outside the Houses of Parliament in June.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5207534.stm

ssi
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Post by ssi » Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:04 pm

chibuya wrote:I donot think the next one should be in China town again - one reason is we need to get people from all the background involeved the other reason is there is a danger that Chinese people become the target of goverment as they are making troubles!
The VBSI tried to organise an additional simultaneous base in Leicester Square, but very few people came. It appears, there are increasing demands on the VBSI to do this and that, but very few people do anything. Please show your support by some other means than impatient demands. China town is visited by all ethnic groups. About 1/3 of 10000 signatures under the petition are from Brits. Journalists from Russian (including UK ethnic Russian newspapers) media came for interviews. At the moment, the Chinese community seems to have the most guts and is prepared to sacrifice the most resourses than anyone else. We all should applaud them.

alien
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further comment about JR

Post by alien » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:04 pm

I've just noticed on the current website:

http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/workin ... /hsmp.html?

The page it entitled:
Information about the Highly Skilled Migrant Programme

And includes the following Q/A
As a highly skilled migrant, can I stay in the United Kingdom permanently?

If you live here continuously for five years with Home Office permission, you can apply near the end of the 5 years to live here permanently.


I believe this would be binding on the government for new applicants. Its a clear promise against which people might act. In my opinion it amounts to a warranty that a certain policy will remain unchanged to the extent it affects people joining the scheme. Actually I'm amazed that their legal team allowed this wording through without qualification.

Now the question is, was such a promise made in similar terms for people currently in the HSMP re. the 4 year period? I really feel this could be of vital use to a legal challenge.

(Of course the other qualifiers I mentioned in my earlier post still apply - in particular a nagging worry about time limits for Judicial Review.)

mona-de-bois
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Re: further comment about JR

Post by mona-de-bois » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:27 pm

Oh yes. It was repeatedly stated in 'Highly Skilled Migrant Programme (HSMP) Revised Programme effective from 31 October 2003. HSMP Guidance'.
Look:
-----
To qualify for settlement in the UK you must have spent a continuous period of four years in the UK except for short holidays or business trips.
page 9
-----
18.2 If you have been granted permission to stay in the United Kingdom as a Highly Skilled Migrant for four years and wish to remain in the United Kingdom on a permanent basis you can apply at the end of the four-year period for permanent residence.
page 13
------
FAQ
24.10 Q: I have already applied successfully under HSMP. How does the revised HSMP affect me?
A: Not at all. It is important to note that once you have entered under the programme you are in a category that has an avenue to settlement. Those who have already entered under HSMP will be allowed to stay and apply for settlement after four years qualifying residence regardless of these revisions to HSMP.
page 16
-------
After four years in the UK as a highly skilled migrant you can apply for settlement.
page 17
-----
Let me know if you need a copy of the document, I can send you a pdf file.

alien wrote:Now the question is, was such a promise made in similar terms for people currently in the HSMP re. the 4 year period? I really feel this could be of vital use to a legal challenge.

a11
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Post by a11 » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:12 pm

As you have probably already learnt from the VBSI website, our today's meeting with Liam Byrne was postponed at last minute. Nevertheless, we still hope to see him this Thursday at 11am and today we had a chance to discuss the situation with several supporting MPs. They strongly suggest that the court case should not go ahead until we are sure that the lobbying approach is ineffective. Because there have been several instances when the HO pulled out of negotiations straight after they learnt that they are being sued - and then just waited till the court made a decision.

ssi
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Post by ssi » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:29 pm

The VBSI is now receiving inquiries from overseas with questions like "Please tell me within how much time we can get Permanent Residency in UK, and can we do Business in UK after we get PR." It seems that, inadvertently, the VBSI became a more trusted source of information than the IND, pay attention to the order of the links in the end of this page: http://123campaign.com/web_link.php?ml_ ... 6#article4
To step up our PR campaign we produced some posters available on the VBSI website. Please have a look at them and consider posting them in your vicinity.

chibuya
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nonsense

Post by chibuya » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:54 pm

I donot agree with what you said- there is a danger that we will miss the time limit

also want for the result from lobby should not stop taking legal advices and find out what ground could the JR start and which law firm to use

If we sit and wait - this only means we trust that the HO will change their mind- which I think it is very unlikely and please stop being naive!!
a11 wrote:As you have probably already learnt from the VBSI website, our today's meeting with Liam Byrne was postponed at last minute. Nevertheless, we still hope to see him this Thursday at 11am and today we had a chance to discuss the situation with several supporting MPs. They strongly suggest that the court case should not go ahead until we are sure that the lobbying approach is ineffective. Because there have been several instances when the HO pulled out of negotiations straight after they learnt that they are being sued - and then just waited till the court made a decision.

mona-de-bois
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Post by mona-de-bois » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:00 pm

May I ask which precise instances do you mean? I want to find out more about those situations and check their circumstances to compare with ours.

So far I know only about an opposite (winning) example with the doctors, when HO agreed to revise its desicion rather than continue with the court hearing.

Also I have a strong feeling all it's becoming more about who will become the winner, Christine Lee or Stephen Kong, not about how to win our case no matter what.

I respect the desire of the two solicitor firms to gain the glory, it's only natural after all. However, I also respect the desire of all and any of Work Permit / HSMP holders to use this commercial drive of the two solicitor companies for their own good and in any legal way that may bring us the result we all want. That's why I'm suggesting do not propagate that we need to favour any particular law firm and/or thier actions without a detailed and specific explanation why.

So, back to the bad examples that were mentined before. Could you please post here all the detailes you know about those instances? Thank you!
a11 wrote: They strongly suggest that the court case should not go ahead until we are sure that the lobbying approach is ineffective. Because there have been several instances when the HO pulled out of negotiations straight after they learnt that they are being sued - and then just waited till the court made a decision.
Last edited by mona-de-bois on Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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