Residence card holder given tough time at Katowice Airport

[kkuk]

Dear all
Could someone please clear this confusion of mine...
I am a Pakistani natonal and UK Resident card holder and obtained Polish visit visa to visit inlaws in poland.I travelled wirh my wife (polish) and kids together and landed at katowice airport last night.
Joined eea line to immigration officer.when we presented our passports to him he told me to go to All passports/non eea queu.I was under impression that being Uk resident card holder I could join eea line but no..anyway after a bit of argument I gave up and went to non eea line.Now this time immigration officer asked me questions regarding where i am staying and for how long what are my inlaws names etc. Anyway after examining my passport thoroughly he reached his stamp to
put on my passport
I explained to him if could double check whether it was ok to put stamp in my passport but no...all in vain. He said I had no other option but to comply with his instructions..
I gave up in the end coz kids were panicking and all tired..no welcome nothin said from immig.officer....what a bunch of rude staff....
Can anyone shed some light on whether immig. Officer had every right to put stamp in my passport...
Thanks please excuse my spelling mistakes I am obly posting from my mobile...

[ld]

Hi,

Sorry to hear of your trouble at the Katowice Airport.

I have been through this a few times myself, so know exactly what you been through.

It’s hard to put in words the discriminatory and dearly beloved behaviour of the Polish Authorities with foreigners, especially if one is Pakistani. BY default they think that you are in Poland to perform some nasty ritual and hence you get treated even worse than other foreigners.

Coming back to the technical aspects of (a) which queue to join at the airport (b) stamp of the passport (c) your rights. I will try and explain in brief but comprehensive manner.

(a) You join the queue that says “All Passportsâ€

[86ti]

In principle you should not have needed a separate visa in the first place but obviously the Polish still maintain that spouses of Polish nationals must obtain one despite holding a residence card. That's why you were treated just like any other visitor. Wrong in my opinion but that's unfortunately how they seem to do that. A stamp would be ok I think in any case as the Directive only forbids the host member state from putting one.

[kkuk]

Thanks for you replies explaining about stamps.
This means that I should not get any stamp in passport when coming back to the UK?
Also am I ok to join eea queue?
Regards

[86ti]

Yes.

[acme4242]

Firstly, IF its not allowed to put an entry or exit stamps in union citizens family members passport, then of course should take the EEA queue.

Now, here is the Polish implementation of 2004/38/EC


Reference
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/doc_centre/ ... nce_en.pdf
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/doc_centre/ ... udy_en.pdf

• Entry or exit stamps

Although Article 5(3) forbidding placing an entry or exit stamp in the passport of non-EU family
members was not transposed into Polish law, Article 10(2) of the Regulation 562/2006 (Schengen
borders code) which has direct effect in Poland, states that there is no need for stamps in passports of
family members if they show a residence card (a contrario). Therefore implementation of this
provision should be considered correct.

Citation of the Article of the
Directive
Art. 5.3 3.
The host Member State shall
not place an entry or exit stamp
in the passport of family
members who are not nationals
of a Member State provided that
they present the residence card
provided for in
Article 10. 2004/38/EC

Corresponding
national
provision (legal
ref. & art.)
Art. 10.2 of the
Regulation
562/2006
(Schgen borders
code)


Complete text of national provision (in
language of Member State)
Art. 10.2. Dokumenty podróży obywateli
państw trzecich, którzy są członkami rodziny
obywatela Unii, do których ma zastosowanie
dyrektywa 2004/38/WE, ale którzy nie
przedstawiÄ… karty pobytowej przewidzianej w
art. 10 tej dyrektywy, sÄ… stemplowane przy
wjeździe lub przy wyjeździe.
Dokumenty podróży obywateli państw
trzecich, którzy są członkami rodziny
obywateli państw trzecich korzystających ze
wspólnotowego prawa do swobodnego
przemieszczania się, ale którzy nie
przedstawiÄ… karty pobytowej przewidzianej w
art. 10 dyrektywy 2004/38/WE, sÄ…
stemplowane przy wjeździe lub przy
wyjeździe.

Translation into English of national
provision
Art. 10.2. The travel documents of nationals of
third countries who are members of the family of
a Union citizen to whom Directive 2004/38/EC
applies, but who do not present the residence
card provided for in Article 10 of that Directive,
shall be stamped on entry or exit.
The travel documents of nationals of third
countries who are members of the family of
nationals of third countries enjoying the
Community right of free movement, but who do
not present the residence card provided for in
Article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC, shall be
stamped on entry or exit.

Fully in
accord?
(y/n)
Y Effective transposition

Comments/Problems
The provision was not transposed
into Polish law, but Article 10(2)
of the Regulation 562/2006
(Schengen borders code) which has
direct effect states that there is no
need for stamps in passports of
family members if they show a
residemce card (a contrario)

[86ti]

But sorry, I don't know what a (a contrario) is

a contrario = from a contrary position (it's not in the Directive but in the Schengen borders code).

[acme4242]

But sorry, I don't know what a (a contrario) is

a contrario = from a contrary position (it's not in the Directive but in the Schengen borders code).

yes, I was a little slow to figure it out,
The Schengen borders code says, if you don't have an "art 10 2004/38/EC"
permit, then the passport should be stamped.
But the OP kkuk, has UK issued permit under "art 10 2004/38/EC" (has he ?)

So "a contrario" , his passport should not be stamped.

Its a very thin argument, the fact that the Polish failed to transpose
anything, one way or the other into law does not help.

But doesn't directive 2004/38/EC also have direct effect, if
the Polish failed to transpose it either way. And leave it blank ?
If no National law covering an aspect, revert back to 2004/38/EC as the direct law ?

[acme4242]

The Conduct of the Schengen Border Guards is covered in the Schengen Border Guard Handbook
This is their manual.


http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf ... 0.en06.pdf

14. 'Minimum check' is the check to be carried out, as a rule, on persons enjoying the
Community right of free movement, in order to verify their identity and nationality for
EU/EEA/CH citizens or their identity and family ties with an EU/EEA/CH citizen for their
family members who are not EU/EEA/CH citizens themselves. It consists of a rapid and
straightforward verification of the travel document, with the aim of checking the validity of
it and of detecting the presence of signs of falsification or counterfeiting. This check may
involve the consultation, in the relevant databases, of information concerning stolen,
misappropriated, lost and invalidated documents.

[jubbah63]

hi guys,
Here is my experience

I went to France last week with French girlfriend on my RC.

At easy jet check-in the clerk ask her manager if i can go to France on just my RC without schengen visa and her manager told her, as long as i'm travelling with my family member of eea its fine to travel to any European country.

Arrive in France the immigration ask me where is schengen visa because i need 1 to enter, so my GF spoke to him in French explaining the eea rules, he then call is superiors, they then say this system is new so not all officers know about it but my RC is good enough to enter so they take a record of my RC and my Passport and GF passport, then stamp my passport for entry and when leaving, stamp it for exiting.

Arrive back in the UK and enter European line, the immigration officer ask us if we both living in the UK, we answered yes then she stamp my passport. not sure if i should get a stamp because i didn't give landing card

my RC is on A4 and i have a non EU passport.

[86ti]

not sure if i should get a stamp because i didn't give landing card

No, see my second answer in this thread.

[acme4242]

I went to France last week with French girlfriend on my RC.

sorry jubbah63, Under EU regulations, namely EU directive 2004/38/EC
a girlfriend is not considered family. unless she is a Registered partner.

• Spouse • your spouse;

• Registered partner • your partner with whom you have concluded a
registered partnership on the basis of the legislation of a Member State –
however, the registered partner has the right to accompany or join
you only in the Member States which treat registered partnerships
as equivalent to marriage;

• descendants • your direct descendants (i.e. children, grand-children…)
who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of your spouse
or registered partner;

• ascendants • your dependent direct relatives in the ascending line (i.e.
parents, grand-parents …) and those of your spouse or registered
partner.

The above family members enjoy the rights granted by the Directive
when they join or accompany you and the Member States have no
scope for discretion in recognition of their rights.

What about other family members?

Other family members such as siblings, cousins, aunts and uncles
and other relatives have the right to have their entry and
residence facilitated by the host Member State if they are dependant
on you or are members of your household or where serious health
grounds strictly require your personal care. This could be the case
as well of your non dependant parents or children of more than 21
years if they live with you.

And partners? Your registered partner enjoys the same right as other
family members in the Member States which do not treat registered
partnerships as equivalent to marriage. The same goes also for your
partner with whom you have a durable duly attested
relationship. This concept of partnership covers same and different
sex partnerships and de facto partnerships, such as cohabitation.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Arrive in France the immigration ask me where is schengen visa because i need 1 to enter, so my GF spoke to him in French explaining the eea rules, he then call is superiors, they then say this system is new so not all officers know about it but my RC is good enough to enter so they take a record of my RC and my Passport and GF passport, then stamp my passport for entry and when leaving, stamp it for exiting.

So you had no problems, except for some educational problems, entering France with your Residence Card stamped on an A4 piece of paper.

Arrive back in the UK and enter European line, the immigration officer ask us if we both living in the UK, we answered yes then she stamp my passport. not sure if i should get a stamp because i didn't give landing card

my RC is on A4 and i have a non EU passport.

The UK should not have stamped your passport on reentry to the UK. You definitely do not need to do a landing card. UKBA is very explicit about that. See UKBA’s Immigration Directorates’ Instructions – (Chapter 7) Section 3 – EEA nationals & their family members at http://eumovement.wordpress.com/eu-coun ... d-kingdom/

5.2.1. Landing cards for non-EEA family members

As a family member has a right to admission and residence simply by virtue of proving that
he/she is, or has been, the family member of an EEA national with a right to reside it is
considered unduly onerous to require holders of family permits and residence cards to
submit any form of additional documentation, including a landing card.

However, this does not apply when a person’s claim to be a family member is assessed and
accepted for the first time at port and the person is admitted on a Code 1A (see paragraph
5.3). This is because we do not otherwise have a record of the person.

[jubbah63]

@acme4242

Girl friend, unmarried partner, extended family member = same thing, GF

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Girl friend, unmarried partner, extended family member = same thing, GF

This is only true if you have a long term documented relationship with your girlfriend.

It is not true for the girlfriend you met two weeks ago at the pub and moved in with the following weekend.

[jubbah63]

@ acme4242

what are you talking about

i'm talking about my recent experience and you talking my relationship durability.

that's already proven that is why i was issue a RC.

[acme4242]

@ acme4242

what are you talking about

i'm talking about my recent experience and you talking my relationship durability.

that's already proven that is why i was issue a RC.

sorry, excuse me, I didn't know the RC was issued as partner of EU citizen.
Then of course you are entitled to be treated as family member.

Here is the study of the French compliance in Law.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/doc_centre/ ... nce_en.pdf

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/doc_centre/ ... udy_en.pdf

UK

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/doc_centre/ ... udy_en.pdf

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/doc_centre/ ... nce_en.pdf

[86ti]

The Directive 2004/38/EC is not very clear whether the visa free provision would also be applicable to extendend family members. There is a lengthy thread on this forum which I believe concluded that extendend family members should indeed profit too but you will find that some member states are restricting it to "direct" family members. We have some evidence for the latter here too. In the worst case you could be denied entry.

[kkuk]

V intresting. I will let you guys know my expierence when i land back in the uk coming sunday.
Thx guys

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

kkuk,

Why did you get a Polish visa when you already have a Residence Card? Polish embassy seems pretty clear that you did not need it: http://www.londynkg.polemb.net/index.php?document=135

Also note that you can go through the EU/EEA line when arriving back in the UK. Or, if there is a long line there and nobody in the "Other passports" line, you can take your wife (as your special guest!) down that exit.

[kkuk]

Hi there.
Thx for the link. Now intresting thing is that polish consulate in manchester has its own website n it states there that spouses of polish nationals need visa to visit poland ( i checked it last month when applied for polish visa)
Bt the way if i was asked that many questions despite having visa.....cant imagine how many they would ask me without visa...
Lets see what happens when landing back in the u.k. regarding stamp etc
thx.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Lets see what happens when landing back in the u.k. regarding stamp etc
thx.

When you arrive in the UK, you will likely find your border guard is very well trained and professional and knows the rules. If there is any problem, be firm but very patient with them. If you have any problems, ask them to call over their supervisor, who will most likely have more experience.

You can always show them the following extract from their own instructions:
UKBA’s Immigration Directorates’ Instructions – Chapter 7 - Section 3 – EEA nationals & their family members

5.2.6. Endorsing the passports of residence card holders

Regulation 11(3) states that an immigration officer may not place a stamp in the passport of
a person who holds a residence card when he/she is admitted to the UK.

[kkuk]

Hi there

Just wanted to update that there was no stamps placed in my passport when going through immig. control in the U.K.
No questions asked. the officer just flicked through my passport, scanned residence card and that was it.
However, on exiting Poland, Exit stamp was placed on my passport.

Thanks all for your opinions n help

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Welcome home! Now that you know all this stuff, you will likely never have to know or use it again in your life! :-)

[Marcus Samuel]

hi guys,
Here is my experience

I went to France last week with French girlfriend on my RC.

At easy jet check-in the clerk ask her manager if i can go to France on just my RC without schengen visa and her manager told her, as long as i'm travelling with my family member of eea its fine to travel to any European country.

Arrive in France the immigration ask me where is schengen visa because i need 1 to enter, so my GF spoke to him in French explaining the eea rules, he then call is superiors, they then say this system is new so not all officers know about it but my RC is good enough to enter so they take a record of my RC and my Passport and GF passport, then stamp my passport for entry and when leaving, stamp it for exiting.

Arrive back in the UK and enter European line, the immigration officer ask us if we both living in the UK, we answered yes then she stamp my passport. not sure if i should get a stamp because i didn't give landing card

my RC is on A4 and i have a non EU passport.

Hi, gf doesn't entitle to to spousal benefits of EU travel. It is not considered as a family member.