Zambrano - People seeking residence on basis of child

[SSH]

Hi Guys,

Information previously posted on INIS.GOV.IE for the zambrano case is not there anymore, they have removed the link, and there is no other place inside INIS website where i can find the info posted previously.

any ideas ?

or has DoJ changed their mind again ?

[Obie]

Mr Shatters is a man of consistency. He has kept to his words so far.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR11000019

[dodo123]

Hi Guys,

Information previously posted on INIS.GOV.IE for the zambrano case is not there anymore, they have removed the link, and there is no other place inside INIS website where i can find the info posted previously.

any ideas ?

or has DoJ changed their mind again ?

Your are right,this is the second time they have removed a notice in contection with zambrano case.first it was on the 13 of this month and now they have done it again.Fingers cross

[ImmigrationLawyer]

My understanding is that the cases where listed for mention a few days ago. It was announced that the Minister was reviewing the files and was sending out letters to the applicants to request that they make their submissions and send in proofs. Surely most cases that fall within Zambrano will succeed, and making many cases moot, anyway.

Well their barrister indicated that there would be "letters" going out, but the Department should not be writing directly to the applicant whilst the matter is "sub judice", I assumed they meant letters from the CSSO to the solicitors. All the proofs are in the affidavits grounding JR. I was surprised at the length of the adjournment. (2 months). Judge Cooke didn't seem surprised and granted it straight away.
I would say that costs are the issue causing the Dept to delay. it will break their little hearts sending out the cheques to the lawyers who brought these cases.

Re the inis website policy - it had been pointed out to them that the statement was unclear about whether applicants outside the State with a DO had to first apply for revocation of the DO before making application to re-enter Ireland. Maybe they are clarifying this.

[judwaa52]

Thanks Immigration Lawyer....

I wonder if people who are on stamp4 already ( ICT Working VISA or any other means) should avail of this or not.

I remember vaguely, when they brought more clarification on who can and cannot apply for LTR, they mentioned people who are on the IBC scheme can not apply for LTR.

I am thinking if people change their stamps under this new scheme they might introduce a fancy rule latter on with restrictions on weather people on this scheme can apply for LTR/Citizenship or not.

[Morrisj]

Immig. Lawyer,from a reliable source(Applicants outside the state)those applying for visa(specified category)with a link to Zambrano got their D.O revoked automatically,while those applying for join spouse(Irish national)had to apply for revocation tho the later made me believe Shatter is respecting and observing d right of Irish citizens(immig. bill) some staff at d Dept will make things a lil bit difficult cos they are not happy they are turnin back their unreasonable decisions they made,not all tho

[Morrisj]

Mr Walsg i wont say you are wrong but u should know its only when Applicant(s) goes to Court for JR,thats when it becomes a CASE so there wasn't anyway that could have been in the transcript,as for the media,u mean d Irish media or the media from the country of d non eu spouse?if its the later(d Irish dude was me mate)Newspaper that displayed how d incident happened,Police reports,statements from eyewitness were included in their Application For revocation,I saw those documents with me own eyes

[Morrisj]

even with an application sent in,it took d Dept 2yrs to revoke d deportation,Mr Walgs i ve seen many unreasonable decisions,I aint no lawyer,just this public relation thingy in me.U r either judging from what u ve heard or from what was happening when u were with d Dept.I know about d juju and all but d truth is,juju exist but due 2 abuses n lies even genuine application involving juju reference can never be accepted anymore by d Dept. u helped 3 non eu spouse of Irish citizens?when?Between 2008/2011?

[walrusgumble]

Thanks Immigration Lawyer....

I wonder if people who are on stamp4 already ( ICT Working VISA or any other means) should avail of this or not.

I remember vaguely, when they brought more clarification on who can and cannot apply for LTR, they mentioned people who are on the IBC scheme can not apply for LTR.

I am thinking if people change their stamps under this new scheme they might introduce a fancy rule latter on with restrictions on weather people on this scheme can apply for LTR/Citizenship or not.

Yeah of course they should. If you have an Irish Citizen Child and are an active parent, avail of it. Many people are here on economic basis ie required to remain economically viable. At least such requirement is gone if here on basis of child. Either way, even if you did not bother, you would always be able to rely on Zambrano if there was a threat of deportation due to loss of job.

THe only restictions on Citizenship are people on stamp 2. No point even getting into that.

LTR, was always for people who were on stamp 1 and needed to get stamp 4. LTR is glorifed stamp 4 status.

[walrusgumble]

Mr Walsg i wont say you are wrong but u should know its only when Applicant(s) goes to Court for JR,thats when it becomes a CASE so there wasn't anyway that could have been in the transcript,as for the media,u mean d Irish media or the media from the country of d non eu spouse?if its the later(d Irish dude was me mate)Newspaper that displayed how d incident happened,Police reports,statements from eyewitness were included in their Application For revocation,I saw those documents with me own eyes

Any media, as in reports of the case in court, or like the Cork Man recentl who told his story to the media about his wife who received a deportation order 3-4 years ago and then created a family.

So you are saying the people you are referring to never went to JR? Wow, how noble, in the immigration system lawyers seem to be going to court for everything and at pro bono / no foal no fee rate. How bothered where the family if they did not challenge the decisions to deport?

It appears, that all or most cases before the High Court are now available on Courts. ie . Cooke J is a big fan (which is great for all who want to read the cases) This has been ongoing for years. A case like the one you mentioned would get lots of attention and would most certaintly be recorded and transcript, and even a "reported case".

What news paper are we referring too, Non Ireland? When did this happened?

Let me get this straight, the deportation was applied because the non irish spouse failed in their asylum case and it was considered safe to return. Marriage occurs, the Minister does not see any insourmountable obstacles in the family being united in another country.

Unfortunately, the irish spouse was a victim of crime, which unfortunately could have happened anyone, even if the couple went to say, England. Minister can't be responsible for failing to look into the future. What country are we talking about ?, was such an incident genuinely forseeable.

When the decision to grant the deporation or the decision to implement the existing deportation order was made, was the couple married then?????? If not, what are you complaining about? Did they marry after the deportation order and then made an application to revoke? If its the latter, despite the long delay, that was a great result. What won it for them? THe fact that they were married or the fact that the Irish person left but was attacked.? Why were they attacked?

What was the time line?

As much in doubt as I am, abit, I actually have heard a similar story before.

[walrusgumble]

even with an application sent in,it took d Dept 2yrs to revoke d deportation,Mr Walgs i ve seen many unreasonable decisions,I aint no lawyer,just this public relation thingy in me.U r either judging from what u ve heard or from what was happening when u were with d Dept.I know about d juju and all but d truth is,juju exist but due 2 abuses n lies even genuine application involving juju reference can never be accepted anymore by d Dept. u helped 3 non eu spouse of Irish citizens?when?Between 2008/2011?

Ju ju magic IS something that is believed in, I fully accept that.

But in the western worlsd, and i say that respectively, only an idiot you accpet the powers of same. Its all in the mind, its nonsense. Hey, the same could be said about organised religion.

It is accepted that it is a subjective fear, but the UNHCR requires that to be an objective fear. In places like Nigeria, COI suggests that only in backwater places that ju ju is practiced or taken seriously. Anyway, JU Ju Magic is rarely claimed now adays either in Ireland or UK. This is so, because the story makers (ie the smugglers) know that people on this side of the world are not stupid and the tale does not work.

2008-2011, yeah that would be about right. Made a last application in or around Febuary 2008. Kept it simple in that stated the facts but piled loads of documentary evidence and financial evidence - Which was really really good. Decision came/or was told by mate a while roughly around August -September 2009. That person was non eu who had lived here 2 years on permit in 2003 and lived illegally here since. Relationship was genuine and she was expecting. Damn, I wish I took that couple of quid.

THe first one had been in 2007, I just suggested what was needed, she got a decision about 2 years later. Husband was never legal. I think, I can't recall correctly, he had a transfer order from France in place. I think a local politican helped. I can't say for certain that I believed that was genuine (genuine in her eyes, certaintly not in his) They are now on off

[Morrisj]

Alrite lets just say u r calling me a lier,wud ve love to show correspondences btw d Dept and few people,i have read but couldnt be bothered,am not into immigration,law or politics,how can i know this things abt d dept,court if am just a dentist,i didn just hear things,I read them.Anyways if actually ur story about helping those ppl is true,then its not fair to d group of ppl in same situation,having no connection,come on r u related to d Irish citizens involved in those u helped?

[Morrisj]

u know what i just read ur crap again hw u helped those people and i noticed when u wrote loads of evidence and financial...that whole story u forged it,hey ur sister myt be lawyer but u r not,1st of all financial statement from the Irish spouse or d non eu spouse?come what amount of finance r u talking abt here?check d case of either ugbolease or Ubgo,d irish spouse of d non eu was working with d Revenue,she wud v bn well able to take care of her non eu spouse,still deportation was made against him

[walrusgumble]

Alrite lets just say u r calling me a lier,wud ve love to show correspondences btw d Dept and few people,i have read but couldnt be bothered,am not into immigration,law or politics,how can i know this things abt d dept,court if am just a dentist,i didn just hear things,I read them.Anyways if actually ur story about helping those ppl is true,then its not fair to d group of ppl in same situation,having no connection,come on r u related to d Irish citizens involved in those u helped?

It is incorrect what you are saying. You are saying all cases get refused. That is a down right lie. I have little reason for suggesting otherwise. Yes, people with deportation orders will not succeed.Yes if the marriage was suspicious or done only a few months after entering, it might not succeed.

There is absolutely no reason to doubt what you are saying. It happens in other countries, it surely happens here. It is just the story you mentioned, if true, is so crazy (its true, but mental) it is out of pure interest and curiosity I would love to see that in evidence like the newspapers.


I can honestly say, I am in a better position than you to suggest otherwise. But there can be exceptional cases with people who have been illegal. Again, this is a discretionary system so there are inconsistencies. They are decided on a case by case system. Hence the problems and criticism of the system

Check out the politics.ie site regarding reverse discrimination which some people where peddling. Quite a few people actually attested themselves that the author was talking nonsense as they had no problem. Why would they lie? (albeit I doubt many of their spouses were illegal or asylum seekers)


"wud ve love to show correspondences btw d Dept and few people,i have read but couldnt be bothered,am not into immigration,law or politics,how can i know this things abt d dept,court if am just a dentist,i didn just hear things,I read them.Anyways if actually ur story about helping those ppl is true,then its not fair to d group of ppl in same situation,having no connection,come on r u related to d Irish citizens involved in those u helped?"

I have contributed to other threads as to the documents required for such cases. If you actually have been reading the Zambrano and McCarthy threads, my real criticisim falls on the ECJ from interferring in internal matters which they have no rights to.

Why is it not fair? My mates relationships were genuine and even if i did not help, they would have sorted it out anyway, even if it meant paying a couple of grand to a lawyer. They are an intelligent bunch anyway, they would have figured it out. None of the spouses (bar the fella on an alledged transfer order - even then I did little for them) had come here on failed asylum cases. They were legal intitaly and got treated like dirt while on work permits. I told you, I have no qualms with immigrants who actually succeed in getting asylum or some form of humanitarian protection or people who came here on work permits or are arriving into the country with their already married spouse.

First off, you would be betraying your friend's trust. Papers like that are very senstive and private. I am in no way suggesting you are lying am I asking you to provide evidence which is often reasonably achievable. Trust me, that is a very serious story that the media would eat up in a half second - anything to critise that government of the day.


Immigration effects everyone. If you are a dentist then you clealy are intelligent and have been educated to know how to do reasearch. Immigration, particularily in a legal sense is not rocket science. Law and information on anything is fairly accessible now a days on the net. Ahem , google is a start. You say that you have no interest in politics and immigration, fine, but then why make statements (not these statements) without back up, I thought you wanted to help? So its a bit of a cop out. But particularly then you have little right to determine or comment on posts then that you have little interest or knowledge in. Its dishonest as you have no intention of entering a discussion and its worse when you accuse posters of twisting things. Of course one is seen to twist things when the accusser does not understand them

[Morrisj]

U know what? thank u am a lier but atleast i ve achieved what i wanted,my achievement~u really dnt knw what u r oppossing,Zambrano is here to stay and zambrano didnt favour d failed asylum seekers only as u said,non eu spouse of Irish nationals(with kids)benefited from Zambrano and please dnt say anything about Romanians/Bulgarians/2014 cos if u check romanians community online,u il find out they wrote a letter to Dept and not until they get a reply,all comments should be reserved.Thank u

[ImmigrationLawyer]

Can you please give full details of this letter from the Romanian community? I am interested in this issue, I think Zambrano will help Romanian parents of Irish citizen children.

[walrusgumble]

Can you please give full details of this letter from the Romanian community? I am interested in this issue, I think Zambrano will help Romanian parents of Irish citizen children.

If the parents lived in Ireland at time of child's birth, and the child was an Irish citizen, yes, it will or should help them get over the work permit issue. When Romania entered the EU and the work permits were in place, the Romanian nationals who had already got status in Ireland on basis of parentage of citizen children were exempt from the this requirement

[walrusgumble]

U know what? thank u am a lier but atleast i ve achieved what i wanted,my achievement~u really dnt knw what u r oppossing,Zambrano is here to stay and zambrano didnt favour d failed asylum seekers only as u said,non eu spouse of Irish nationals(with kids)benefited from Zambrano and please dnt say anything about Romanians/Bulgarians/2014 cos if u check romanians community online,u il find out they wrote a letter to Dept and not until they get a reply,all comments should be reserved.Thank u

What an idiot.



You clearly have not read the previous posts in full nor attempted to understand them so What was your achievement? What was your aim? Showing that that are a bluffer?

I certaintly don't believe the list of nationalities to suggested you are your family are from, maybe you are Irish but you are full of it suggesting they are Australian, Chinese, American, Nigerian all in one, very International family, eh._

Any chance posters actually refrain from lying and provide evidence in their back up. You are now beginging to be trolling.

I don't know what I am are opposing? Really? Do not be such a patronising tosspot as you have a history of not understanding what you are talking about.

You neither have the qualification nor the capability to make such comments as your understanding of EU and Domestic Law is nothing. At least admit that much. You do not even read what is actually said in the first place, never mind trying to understand what is being said.

I agree that Zambrano did not favour only the asylum people. Where have I suggested that Zambrano only effects asylum seekers. I have commented on other threads about the effects of the case with people of stamp 1-2-3. I never suggested that Zambrano only effects asylum seekers.

But so what? MOST of the people who will avail of Zambrano ARE members of family who came to Ireland as failed asylum seekers!!!! That is why there are so many cases in the High Court. You won't see the State challenging decisions involving people who kept their legal status up to date. So you are saying that the people of Ireland did not know why they decided to change the citizenship laws now? Please.

If the African Union (I know there is one, but how powerful is it?) or some kind of Asian Union akin to the powers of the European Union was in existence, then I would love to see what tune most people sing to when it is absolutely clear thta they had no powers conferred to them to make decisions. Infringement of soverignity when the laws are clear, is not something to be laughed at. It is only the Judges who have the aspiration of EU Citizenship being a fundamental..... Clearly, our governments don't wish it to be so, and neither do most EU citizens (Well the Belgians, but hey Farage is probably right about them, lol) if it has any outside effect on their own nationality.

"u said,non eu spouse of Irish nationals(with kids)benefited from Zambrano and please dnt say anything about Romanians/Bulgarians/2014 cos if u check romanians community online,u il find out they wrote a letter to Dept and not until they get a reply,all comments should be reserved.Thank "


Please stop replying, because your eyesight and thought mechanicism have clearly failed you. your head must hurt .I don't like talking to uneducated retards. Especially ones who twist what was said, despite full evidence from the other posts that shows that you are talking nonsense. You must be a disgrace to your family.

If you return to the original comments about Romanian and Bulgargian Nationals and the comparing treatment - which would be discriminatory, but alas something you wish to ignore

, I had stated CHILDLESS NAtionals and Nationals who want to come over to Ireland NOW.(who clearly are not parents of Citizen Child and won't be for sometime) . They were the class of Romanian and Bulgarian Nationals that I referred too, not the ones who are already here & have a child. If they come over to Ireland now why need work permits. If a Romanian is in Ireland for the last two years and is not married or have a child, they need work permits. THat is not fair.

I even went to the trouble of marking those words in BOLD and Underlined in the original posts. Morever, you have challenged me on that issue already which I clearly clarified the problem. Your only arrogant answer was ohhhhh politics, stories, bla bla bla. When you should have said, sorry, I don't understand, things is over my head.

Provide the acutally links to the basis of your statement. Let everyone see what nonesense you have come up with. And provide the links to the Romanian sites.

Achievement? What again, embarrassing your self. Coming Second Place is not an achievement.

God help Ireland if you are the class of immigrant that it has to put up with, we have enough idiots of our own. I take it that you don't read instructions on medication bottles or take orders very well.

I suppose you are Romanian today, are you.?

[Morrisj]

Immi.Lawyer,google~Romanians community zambrano~Its just like a thread,a sample of the letter they sent in is there on the post.To be honest i think d Romanians and Bulgarians with kids(Irish citizens) can also benefit from Zambrano only those with no kids or kids that aint Irish citizens will remain within d limitation,the EU gave to them

[Morrisj]

Mr Walsg u r d most childish person 4real.Oh cos i read about Romanians that made a romanian today ah?u r a joke,I was never against Romanian/Bulgarians,i was only trying to take that hatred u ve for foreigners especially Nigerians(cos thats d only set of Asylum seekers using juju stories not all)u keep saying its nt fair n R&B,i keep askin how d spouse of Irish is treated compare to d spouse of a British,French etc in Ireland,you said Eu applies,cant u read or r u shame to say thats not fair on Irish

[Morrisj]

As i said i ve achieved what i wanted,u r not really bothered abt Zambrano or d Romanians,u r just paranoid cos of specific foreigners either muslim or Nigerians gaining right even to d point u dont even care about how Irish citizens that are also family to those foreigners r treated compared to how Eu family members (foreigners or not)which is definitely a bonafide proof that there r now many classes of Irish citizens-2day's post btw us,actually gonna be d last cos its like arguin with a fool/wannab lawy

[acme4242]

btw us,actually gonna be d last

don't say its so,
There was me thinking your ALI G pulling the yapping dogs tail

[walrusgumble]

Mr Walsg u r d most childish person 4real.Oh cos i read about Romanians that made a romanian today ah?u r a joke,I was never against Romanian/Bulgarians,i was only trying to take that hatred u ve for foreigners especially Nigerians(cos thats d only set of Asylum seekers using juju stories not all)u keep saying its nt fair n R&B,i keep askin how d spouse of Irish is treated compare to d spouse of a British,French etc in Ireland,you said Eu applies,cant u read or r u shame to say thats not fair on Irish

At least children know who to spell, Morris. Deal with the points I made. Leave the Childish comments to one side, you have little to come back on. Again, provide the links that I have asked for and have the decency to simply say, okay, I was wrong that time.

You were referring to the comparrissions previously made by me. It is not childish to demand that you provide the link to your inaccurate statement. It is not childish to tell you to get a pair of reading glasses since you completely ignore what a poster says, yet some how feel qualified to question its accuracy.

You are doing it again. Where did I say that you were against Romanian / Bulgarians'? I never suggested that. Point out where that was said.

After you, in particular, were vocal in your opposition anyone drawing the comparisions of such people , I stated that it was valid to draw comparision and ask whether you think it was fair on them. No answer was provided and you had little interest so long as it does not effect you. Its exactly the same with other posters who forbid discussion that goes against their world view and those who mistake fact with opinion. Provide a link or shut up.


I hate idiots, regardless of their nationality. You are a complete retard. I would never take on iota of advice or tolerate been talked down up by people like you. So don't try anything. If you are not prepared to back up evidence and at least protrary some form of intelligence without reverting to the race card (you are not special, you are in a tolerant country), do not bother getting involved.

You clearly condone or give a nod and wink to people who break the law and immigration rules, at the expense of another country.

Answer my question; what do you think of your fellow country man who has lied about their country to get into Ireland.

I can read. You seem to have a mental block. EU law applies to British and French. It does not apply to Irish who have not got off their mule and move to another EU country. Each country is entitled to have their own rules, when EU law does not apply. How other countries deal with their own people is their business.

The Irish State take the approach it takes by asking why should our country reward people who failed in their asylum case and then get married? They are only suppose to be here to get their application processed. They are here to seek protection not marriage. They are only here for a limited time and purpose. They also ask why should a person on a deportation order be now allowed to stay simply after getting married. That marriage may not be genuine.This is fair rules on the majority of Irish Citizens and Legal Irish Residence (regardless of nationality) No law in the Consitution is guaranteed and no one's personal rights (which exception of right to life) outweigth that rights and interest of the community as a whole. The Irish State takes the approach it takes so as it does not encourage further trends.

If Nigerians want to come to Ireland, fine, let them, but come and go on tourist visas and work visas.

Waiting for the retarded comments on race etc. Do not bother.

[walrusgumble]

As i said i ve achieved what i wanted,u r not really bothered abt Zambrano or d Romanians,u r just paranoid cos of specific foreigners either muslim or Nigerians gaining right even to d point u dont even care about how Irish citizens that are also family to those foreigners r treated compared to how Eu family members (foreigners or not)which is definitely a bonafide proof that there r now many classes of Irish citizens-2day's post btw us,actually gonna be d last cos its like arguin with a fool/wannab lawy

You achieved nothing, provide your supporting argument on that. I would strongly advise by the way, calling or suggesting someone as a dearly beloved with no proof or no basis, causes legal consequences, even the internet does not escape it. I would strongly advice that you provide proof as oppose to your theory to prove it.

Fraud has no barriers to nationality. You are ok which people of your country tell lies about their country? I did not know muslim was a nationality. Many British are Muslim, we can hardly consider them foreign in the strictest sense.


The race card might work in your home town, it don't work here. Still, It's worth a try if you get refused entry from a nightclub.


Strictly going by the above, you are one of the most deranged self righteous, self pitting gobs*ites that I have seen in some time.

My number one priority is my country. Unlike you, I have an entitlement to make a comment on Eu and domestic policy. But that it not the point.

There are alot of self appointed experts on "reservse discrimination" and amateur EU law experts. Every one's an experts when they are copying and pasting other blogger's academic sites.

The comparisions made by me eg, Roman / Bulgarian, childless EU citizen or legal non eu work permit holders are absolutely valid. I am merely just pointing out that that the Zambrano case unwitingly causes discrimination on the grounds of nationality. With little effort yours and others response simply highlights the hyprocriscy of your arguments. Your unwilliness to accept that it is a valid argument, regardless of motive, suggests that you do not care so long as your ok. Remember, I aint the one with the legal problems.


But hey, don't bother, the whole thing would go over your head.

[Morrisj]

u said ur reference was d illegal foreigners and i pointed out what about d illegal Irish in America,u said its a different issue,why?cos they r related?lol EU~USA.was that the reason Mcdowell or was it Dermot?solicited 4 status from d Presi. of America 2 be given to illegal Irish in America even Shatter used this against Dermot's Immig/Bill yet u said d bill was fair and i asked u-r u indirectly saying shatter doesnt know what he is doing,u said nothing.r u pissed off cos u r bn challenged by a dentist?