Italian citizen Indian spouse

[Mirta SF]

Hello everyone,

I am an Italian citizen working and living in India, where I have been married for the past 2 years to my husband who is an Indian national.

We both have a strong desire to relocate to UK, where I spent two years pursuing a Masters.

Despite having gone through the various websites on immigration for non EU spouses of EU citizens, I am still confused as to the practical steps and best way to go about it.

Is it necessary for me to be in UK before I can have him join me or can we both come in together (always proving not to avail of State subsidies)? Is it necessary that I find a job first, or can we both seek employment simultaneously - as long as we have enough to maintain ourselves?

I have read of instances where the couple has been allowed entry together, but I am not to clear if those rules are still valid and on what happens about employment status then?

If anyone has recently faced a similar situation or has any advice to give, it would be much appreciated. We are trying to figure out the best way to go about it.

Thank you and good luck to all

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You can move freely to the UK with your husband. He needs to apply for an EEA Family Permit from the UK High Commission, which is free and should be issued in a few days.

As long as you are legally in the UK, he can be there with you. For the first 90 days you do not need to do anything. After that you need to be working or a student or have health insurance and be self-sufficient.

http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... u-citizen/ is a description of requirements for a visa (which in the UK is known as the EEA Family Permit)

[Jambo]

For information about EU citizens (and their families) rights in the UK, you can read the information in the UK Border Agency web site. It's quite clear there. See here

Answering your questions:
- You don't need to be in the UK first. You can travel together (it is even advisable to travel together).
- You don't need to have a job in the UK before.
- Your next step would be to apply for a EEA Family Permit for your partner. This is not a visa but similar to one and it is free of charge. You will need to contact the nearest British consulate to apply for it (check online). You will need to provide passports and marriage certificate. That's all. You can ignore all the questions about your financial status in the forms.

[Mirta SF]

Thank you so much for your advice and apologies for the delayed response. I am still under positive shock (had ruled out UK till last month under the belief that all routes were shut), so forgive me if I ask dumb questions. It is more reassuring to receive answers from fellow human beings =)

So the Family Permit is our first step. What Im still hesitant about is the "financial" part. Jambo mentions that we can skip that part?
Do we not need to provide evidence at any point about how we are financing our stay?

If we both leave together, we would both be unemployed/job seekers at the time of entering UK. Directive mentions 90 days after which we need to be working/studying/etc. I know that, even if we dont initially get the most suited job to our qualifications, we would manage to maintain ourselves as we have so far - bit by part time work, bit by family contributions and plain budgeting - but I'm not sure to what extent this can be documented.

I read on the Uk Border Agency link provided that:
"You do not need to work while you are living in the UK. But if you do not work, you must be able to support yourself and your family in the UK without becoming an unreasonable burden on public funds."

So I'm wondering what all type of documentation goes into this?

Once we obtain a family permit and reach the UK, does that mean my husband would be eligible for employment? He has more work experience while I have started working only recently, so by paradox it could be easier for him to get a job - if his work permit isn't an issue - and that would also take care of the financial part.

On a different note, how much weight does a previous visa rejection for another country (non EU) matter? This is before the time we were married.

Thanks a ton for your time and precious advice. I was so skeptical I was going to give up before trying, and I guess this is why your answers are more helpful than me browsing on my own

[Mirta SF]

This is to follow up on my previous posts. I was reading through other users' stories and it occurred to me most people provided phone/Skype records as one of the proofs of the genuineness of the relationship.

My husband (non EU) and I (EU) have been together since 2002 before getting married in 2009. I can provide other kind of evidence in abundance such as pictures and other things (plus we got married the Indian way with 4/5 functions, both families and friends from Italy) but as we were very young, it is difficult to provide phone records or the alike as we both changed numbers/email id/ etc time and again.

Would this create a problem? If reading this, please also refer to my previous question on work permit for my spouse.

Thank you for your precious time and good luck to all

[John]

Mirta SF, you are in great danger of over-complicating this matter. It is in fact very simple!

You are an Italian citizen. Therefore you have Treaty Rights, and that includes the right to live and work etc in any other EEA country, including the UK. Not only that, your family member, that is, your husband, also has the same rights, as long as you are exercising your Treaty Rights.

But especially as Indians are "visa nationals", that is the airline will not allow your husband to board the plane heading for the UK without a suitable sticker in his passport, he needs to apply for an EEA Family Permit. As already said in this topic, that should be issued in a few days. The important piece of evidence when making that application is the marriage certificate, proving that your husband is indeed your "family member".

Any children? If yes, they are no doubt also Italian citizens, so they can use their Italian passport to move to the UK with you.

[Mirta SF]

Mirta SF, you are in great danger of over-complicating this matter. It is in fact very simple!

Lol, you're right John, I have a tendency to overthink when it comes to something very important and close to my heart, but that is exactly the reason why I am seeking guidance on this forum and I humbly requested you all to bear with me!

Thanks for your matter of fact response, it certainly worked in stopping my head and apologies if I annoyed anyone.

[John]

No problem, just suspect you are thinking ... it can't be that easy!

You have, based upon what you have told us, already exercised Treaty Rights in the UK, as a student.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You have been married a long time. You should only have to produce a marriage certificate.

You literally should be able to get the EEA FP with ONLY:
your passports,
your marriage certificate,
a one line letter from you saying that "We will be travelling together to the UK",
the application form
a passport photo

The visa (called the EEA FP) is merely a formality. They have to issue it to you if you are married. http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... u-citizen/ has more details about visas.

[Mirta SF]

Yes absolutely! I can't believe what I'm reading!

Can I ask you to clarify 1 last detail about these famous Treaty rights and the 3 month clause?

"If you have lived in the UK for more than three months they must provide proof that you are a 'qualified person'."

How does this happen in practice? Do we have to make an application/fill forms or what?

Thanks for the advice and the patience

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The EU person has to work or be a student or be self sufficient, or be exercsing treaty rights in some other way. Work, for instance, can be a part time job or a full time job - anything as long as it is a real job.

But for the first 3 months, and longer if they are looking for work, they are not required to do any of this. So as long as a vacation is less than 3 months, they do not need to work in the host country. And in fact if they are looking for work, it can be longer than 3 months.

So once the EU person is exercising one of these treaty rights, the non-EU person can apply for a Residence Card (this is done from within the host country). Should be a simple application. You need to include a piece of evidence that the EU citizen is working (e.g. a payslip or letter from the employer), two passports, the marriage certificate. DONE

[Mirta SF]

Thank you for that.
We would both be looking for work as the idea is to relocate there for a few years at least.

So once the EU person is exercising one of these treaty rights, the non-EU person can apply for a Residence Card (this is done from within the host country).

Does that mean till he doesnt get a Residence Card (hence till I dont prove to be exercising TR) the non EU spouse cannot work? Ouch.

I have just contacted the official agency that handles these applications (the one suggested on the Uk border website), but against what we just discussed, he requested more details for the Family Permit: documents, proof of funds as to how we were going to sponsor the trip, bank statements etc.

What do I make of that?

This is why I am going nuts re-checking, coz at the time of actually approaching the agency things inevitably become more complex.

[Jambo]

I presume the agency your are referring to is "VFS Global". They just act as service providers for the UK Border Agency in administrating the applications. They are not the ones who make the decisions. Most likely, they are not used to deal with EU citizens and their family member but with Indians or British family members which are subject to UK immigration laws. That is why they have advised you to provide all the financial information. This is needed when applying according to UK laws not EU laws.
As we said before, the application is very simple and as you are married for a couple of years now, your marriage would probably not be questioned. No need to provide letters, Skype chats etc. Marriage certificate is enough.
To get a visa appointment, you might need to fill an online form with questions on your financials, flight tickets etc - just write "N/A. Applying under EU laws". The form is one-fit-all type of form and is not very suitable for EU applications.
As for your husband, he would be allowed to work from day 1 in the UK as long as your are exercising treaty rights. When applying for jobs, if he states he got a EU family permit on the CV, that should be good enough for employers. Strictly speaking, if you are exercising treaty rights, he is legal in the UK and doesn’t need a permit to work. Practically speaking, employers would like to see some kind of proof. The initial family permit is valid for 6 months. When the six months run out, he would be still legal in the UK a long as you are exercising treaty right but again, to make it easier with employers, better to apply for a residence card when you are in the UK. This is valid for 5 years.

It is a lot simpler than you think.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Does that mean till he doesnt get a Residence Card (hence till I dont prove to be exercising TR) the non EU spouse cannot work? Ouch.

Not at all. He can work from 1 minute after the plane touches down (and in fact before clearing immigration!). The EEA FP is proof enough for employers and is valid for 6 months.

I have just contacted the official agency that handles these applications (the one suggested on the Uk border website), but against what we just discussed, he requested more details for the Family Permit: documents, proof of funds as to how we were going to sponsor the trip, bank statements etc.

The agency does not necessarily know what they are talking about. They would prefer people bring far too much stuff. If you actually are married, then you need a very minimal set of stuff.


How quickly do you need the EEA FP?

[Mirta SF]

Yes, it was VFS indeed and as far as they are concerned I agree with you they dont differentiate. What concerned me more was the Uk Border Agency's website, it mentions financial statements and plenty more documentation as requirements for the EEA Family Permit - and though it sure does look one-size-fit-all, isnt it supposed to be explicitly for family members of EU hence under EU law facilitations? Seems a bit nonsensical.

It actually mentions one 'They should include all the documents they can to show that they qualify for an EEA family permit.'

Unfortunately the British Commission here in Delhi does not entertain questions in this regard, and I feel a bit hesitant in risking the application be rejected as incomplete per their discretion - if nothing coz it's a lot of hassle and time wasted.

I know I seem paranoid, but we have had such illogical experiences with visas before, and also, when we applied for his visa to italy (which being my country was supposedly even easier) eventually took months coz of additional requirements every time.

The rest sounds reassuring, glad to hear he is entitled to work and about the RC bit.

Thanks a lot, you have been really helpful. I was extremely upbeat today after hearing the advice of all of you, but then time and again there is some long list of requirements popping somewhere that breaks the bubble! Argh!

[Jambo]

What concerned me more was the Uk Border Agency's website, it mentions financial statements and plenty more documentation as requirements for the EEA Family Permit

It actually mentions one 'They should include all the documents they can to show that they qualify for an EEA family permit.'

Could you share this link? I would be very surprised it the UKBA states that under EU applications one needs to provide financial statements. With regards to "All documents they can show that they qualify for an EEA family permit" means EU passport + marriage certificate. No more is needed.

Unfortunately the British Commission here in Delhi does not entertain questions in this regard, and I feel a bit hesitant in risking the application be rejected as incomplete per their discretion - if nothing coz it's a lot of hassle and time wasted.

At least the application is free so you are just risking time (and less hassle as you don't need to collect bank statements, payslips etc). I agree that there is always a risk that the person reviewing your case is not fully trained on EU laws (it happens although the UKBA is getting better in that respect) but if I were you, I would rather write a good cover letter and have a short and simple application than flooding them with unnecessary documents. Just have your husband write in the cover letter that he is applying according to EU Directive 2004/38/EC to travel together with you to the UK and that according to the EU Directive, you are providing your passports and marriage certificate.

I know I seem paranoid, but we have had such illogical experiences with visas before, and also, when we applied for his visa to italy (which being my country was supposedly even easier) eventually took months coz of additional requirements every time.

On the contrary. Applying for a visa to Italy is dealt under Italy national rules (because it is your country). If you were French, applying for a visa to Italy, it would have been under EU rules which are much more simpler.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

First is that there are essentially no consequences if they turn you down for the visa. If for instance, you do not include the marriage certificate, they will turn it down. And the next day you send off the free application again, with the marriage certificate.

They can only refuse you for 4 reasons. That it is a marriage of convenience for the visa, that you are a threat to national security, that you are a threat to public policy, or that you are a threat to public health.

Not including a bank statement does not rank in reasons to refuse! Not telling them anything about your existing employer in India is not a reason to refuse the visa.

[Mirta SF]

[quote="Jambo"]
Could you share this link? I would be very surprised it the UKBA states that under EU applications one needs to provide financial statements. With regards to "All documents they can show that they qualify for an EEA family permit" means EU passport + marriage certificate. No more is needed.
[quote]

It does not say one must provide financial statements under EU, it mentions the 2 things in different places as a long checklist for EEA and the statement above; it was my misunderstanding of "all" to intend the list of relevant documents given under checklist for EEA FP which was very extensive but I now understand facultative.

Thank you all very much for having had the time and patience to explain things to me so thoroughly, I was evidently confused and complicated what indeed seems fairly straightforward - hopefully experience this time will prove my anxiety misplaced!

I hope I will find a chance to return the favour or express my appreciation for all the help.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Are you required to do an online application for the EEA FP, or can you instead submit only a filled out paper form?

Also, what is your time scale for leaving India? Really soon, or sometime in the next few months?

Finally, you might find it interesting to read Freedom to move and live in Europe - A Guide to your rights as an EU citizen

[Mirta SF]

I think we can make an online application but still need to go make the payment and give supporting evidence.

We were hoping to leave as soon as possible, but that also depends on the likelihood of one/both of us getting a job there.

Not sure if many people go and start searching from there itself? Will probably follow up with the "Settling in" group in this forum to hear about other people's experience.

Thank you for the guide, it sure is very useful. Can I refer to that in case VFS/authorities request excessive proof?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

go make the payment

What payment is that? There should be no fee and thus no payment!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I think we can make an online application but still need to go make the payment and give supporting evidence.

There is no fee for your application. It is required by EU law to be free. http://www.vfs-uk-in.com/visafees.aspx

Family member of an EEA national Free of charge

Thank you for the guide, it sure is very useful. Can I refer to that in case VFS/authorities request excessive proof?

I don't think my page will be authoritative with them. You just need to be very clear with them and insist if they give you any problems. Remember VFS are not the people who decide anything - they just run the drop off office.

[Mirta SF]

Yes absolutely. I think I typed that in automatic. It will take some time before getting past previous visa traumas!

Any difference in applying online/in person?

I will surely be firm with the VFS. We intend applying in the coming week, if we don't need to get the marriage certificate attested or anything.

Will let you know how it goes! If all goes well, it is just thanks to the precious help of this forum's members

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I will surely be firm with the VFS. We intend applying in the coming week, if we don't need to get the marriage certificate attested or anything.

Add any experience with your marriage certificate and applying for visas to http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=79679