What will the home office announce tomorrow?

[Hernancortes]

Apparently gruppenfuhrer Reid will toughen procedures at HO for the removal of asylum seekers. It will be interesting to see how they remove 500,000 illegals in 5 years. Who id reid shitiing when he makes such outrageous claims during interviews?

Anyway, i wish i never came to the UK. It is starting to frighten me. ID cards, internment, control orders, anti terror legislation, De Menezes, ASBOs, Iraq, visa refusal rates in my home country etc. Frightening vountry......

[marianne001]

All I want to know is, did they (HO) really pay people (which category were they?) £3,000 to leave the country, or was it a one-off instance?

Maybe that's the way to get .5 million out of the country in 5 years! Just pay them to leave? Well, he hasn't mentioned how he'd do it, so anything's possible.

[Hernancortes]

The £3,000 cash to go home is done by the international organisation for migration. That wouldn't last 6 months where i'm from. You could make so much more by working sans papiers in England.

As for the removals, i bet they will have a mini regularisation scheme for certain types of persons. Otherwise, why pretend you can solve the crisis by making grand statements?

[John]

i wish i never came to the UK

Assuming that you are legally in the UK, which appears to be the case, given you mention visas, you will probably have nothing to fear from any announcement this week. It is the illegals, particularly those working illegally in the UK, that might start to feel very uncomfortable. This newspaper story today might give a hint of the sort of thing to be announced.

By the way the announcements this week have already started :-

Ministers have announced that the cost of a UK passport will rise to £66 from October.

[Dawie]

What I don't understand is how is putting a uniform on an immigration office going to deter illegal immigrants? Are they going to approach the immigration officer, see the uniform and then think "Oh no, I'd better turn right around and go back to my home country!".

It just shows you how out of touch John Reid really is. Most illegal immigrants didn't start off as illegal immigrants, they are overstayers of orginally valid visas. Putting uniforms on immigration officers isn't really going to accomplish anything.

It is the illegals, particularly those working illegally in the UK, that might start to feel very uncomfortable.

John, I doubt this very much. The UK government has been trying to handle the so-called problem of illegal immigration for decades. What makes you think this round of window-dressing/sabre-rattling is any different?

The truth of the matter is that there really isn't a problem. There are more than enough jobs for all immigrants in the UK, legal and illegal. And that is part of the reason why nothing has been seriously done about it. Big business benefits greatly from illegal workers and who are the patrons of the Government? Big business. The problem is that the Government has to be seen to be acting tough on illegal immigrants while privately acknowledging the fact that they are a very important part of the economy.

However, there will never be an amnesty because firstly big business would have to start paying newly regularised immigrants a decent wage, and that would put a cramp in their style. Secondly, all the Sun and Daily Mirror readers would be up in arms about these "foreign bastards" stealing their jobs, their homes and everything else that isn't nailed down. Not to mention the diseases they bring with them just so that they can sponge off the state.

What the average Sun or Daily mirror readers doesn't understand is that illegal immigrants don't want handouts or state benefits, they just want to work! The only party to blame for handing benefits to people who aren't entitled to them is the Government for allowing it to happen in the first place.

[OL7MAX]

I don't believe the HS is doing anything about illegals already here. The sabre ratling is about asylum seekers and preventing the rise of illegal immigrants. Has there been anything here that addresses the issue of the 500K (or is it really 800K) illegal immigrants? Or about how their shoes will be filled (500K jobs going a beggin' is a lot of jobs)?

[marianne001]

Dawie,

Absolutely agree 100%.

[Dawie]

I don't believe the HS is doing anything about illegals already here. The sabre ratling is about asylum seekers and preventing the rise of illegal immigrants. Has there been anything here that addresses the issue of the 500K (or is it really 800K) illegal immigrants? Or about how their shoes will be filled (500K jobs going a beggin' is a lot of jobs)?

I personally think the figure is well over a million.

Asylum seekers make up a small minority of immigrants in the UK and yet receive 99% of the press attention.

The truth of the matter is that, short of introducing draconian police state methods (such as putting police road blocks up, arresting ALL immigrants both illegal and legal, and then releasing them one by one after verifying their details), it will be impracticle to deport all illegal immigrants in the UK. Not to mention unbelievably expensive and a complete public relations nightmare. Anyone who thinks it is possible and desirable to deport every single illegal immigrant in the UK is living in a dream world.

[marianne001]

Oops, pressed submit too early!!

Dawie,

I absolutely agree, with your point about there not being an amnesty happening, due to business pressures on the government (it wouldn't be because of the media!) that they will suffer from it.

[/quote]
Most illegal immigrants didn't start off as illegal immigrants, they are overstayers of orginally valid visas. Putting uniforms on immigration officers isn't really going to accomplish anything.

Exactly- most come as students or even tourists for a week, month or whatever. Putting uniformed officers wouldn't bother them cos they already have a visa! And their status changes whilst they are IN the country, not at passport control.

But i don't understand why you mention that there isn't a problem, Dawie? You mean it's hype created by the media?

The only party to blame for handing benefits to people who aren't entitled to them is the Government for allowing it to happen in the first place.

But why do they apply for it in the first place? Clearly the government should be able to ensure they don't receive benefits, but if they're applying doesn't that suggest some of them want state handouts?

There are loads of cases of illegal immigrants receiving benefits, because. Yes, probably 90% of illegals are working, not earning benefits, but for the media it's the 10% that counts.

[Dawie]

But i don't understand why you mention that there isn't a problem, Dawie? You mean it's hype created by the media?

Partly yes, but also political scaremongering by certain unscrupolous politicians for political gain. Do the so-called "War on terror" or the "War on Drugs" ring a bell? Convenient political hot potatoes that can be relied upon to get people frothing at the mouth and provide great cover for a creeping police state.

But what exactly is the "problem" with illegal immigrants? Well, I'm afraid to say that for most British people, the problem with illegal immigrants is the colour of their skin.

It's a well-known fact that there are many illegal American, Canadian, Australian and other overstayers from white, first-world countries in the UK. People who are used to being able to travel without obtaining a visa beforehand. Yet I don't see any headlines screaming for their deportation in the Sun or Daily Mirror. In fact, they're hardly ever mentioned.

But why do they apply for it in the first place? Clearly the government should be able to ensure they don't receive benefits, but if they're applying doesn't that suggest some of them want state handouts?

There are many many many more British citizens illegally claiming welfare benefits that they are not entitled to than illegal immigrants. The people who are shouting loudest about illegal immigrants claiming benefits are the same Sun readers sitting in their council houses claiming disability allowance while the only disability they have is a poor choice of reading material. They are doing more damage to the welfare system than any illegal immigrants.

[John]

I think a good bet for being announced tomorrow is .... embarkation controls .... the re-introduction of which will at least enable the Home Office to start to have an idea of the number of overstayers in the UK.

[OL7MAX]

the only disability they have is a poor choice of reading material.

Nice one!

But why does the obvious seem so difficult for people to see? Who's more likely to claim benefits - somebody who's in hiding from the state... or somebody who's afraid of hard work?

Yeah, sure, it makes good froth to confuse the issue of illegal immigrants with illegal benefit claimants, and the tabloid press are good at froth. Nobody buys them for the news.

[marianne001]

It's a well-known fact that there are many illegal American, Canadian, Australian and other overstayers from white, first-world countries in the UK.

That's an interesting point that many in the media never touch on. and most immigrants in the country are from the aformentioned nations!

[JAJ]

It's a well-known fact that there are many illegal American, Canadian, Australian and other overstayers from white, first-world countries in the UK.

That's an interesting point that many in the media never touch on. and most immigrants in the country are from the aformentioned nations!

And the facts supporting this assertion are ... ?

The UK Labour Force Survey gave the following estimates for the birthplaces of overseas born persons in the UK in 2005-06 (including British citizens):

Republic of Ireland: 0.5m
Rest of EEA: 1.1m
Other Europe: 0.3m
Canada/U.S. : 0.2m
Rest of Americas & Caribbean : 0.3m
Africa: 1.1m
Indian sub-continent: 1.1m
Middle East : 0.2m
Rest of Asia : 0.6m
Oceania : 0.2m

Total : 5.5m

Not so easy to see how this fits in with the assertion that "most immigrants are from Australia, Canada and the US".

[Dawie]

I used the word "many" not "most" and in no way did I imply that they make up any sort of majority.

Your estimates are for legal immigrants. Anecdotally your figures do not add up. 0.2m from Oceania? Many Australians would argue that there are more Australians than that just in London alone, ever mind other Oceanians (like New Zealanders) from the rest of the UK.

The Home Office has shown that not only is it impossible to get accurate figures on illegal immigrants, but even figures on legal immigrants are highly inaccurate.

In any case, the point I was making is that illegal immigrants from white First World countries do not attract nearly as much attention as illegal immigrants from mostly non-white Third World countries.

[bbdivo]

In any case, the point I was making is that illegal immigrants from white First World countries do not attract nearly as much attention as illegal immigrants from mostly non-white Third World countries.

Silly question, but why do you have to refer to them using a colour?

[bbdivo]

In any case, the point I was making is that illegal immigrants from white First World countries do not attract nearly as much attention as illegal immigrants from mostly non-white Third World countries.

Silly question, but why do you have to refer to them using a colour?

[Dawie]

Silly question, but why do you have to refer to them using a colour?

Because I am emphasising the dearly beloved overtones of British citizens' perceptions of illegal immigration.

[jes2jes]

I think a good bet for being announced tomorrow is .... embarkation controls .... the re-introduction of which will at least enable the Home Office to start to have an idea of the number of overstayers in the UK.

John, I could not agree much more with you. I think it is the best way and this has worked perfectly for the Yanks and it will work for us. I have just come from the states a couple of days ago and apart from submitting I-94's (which in the past most people didn't), there is an electronic scanner which scans your biometric passport (or visa if you do not have a biometric passport) and records your departure into the INS system. You are then given a receipt of this record after the excercise.

Dawie, I would say that, when people mention illegal immigrants, all that comes to the minds of the population are people in the minority (Africans, Asians, etc). They is no mention of Americans, Aussies etc. There are a number of people from Eastern Europe who are here illegally but no one cares because of the colour of their skin. People associate Africans and blacks in general as illegals. I saw a program once on tv where the police stopped a car driven by two Eastern Europeans because it did not have any tax, mot or insurance. A further checked revealed they have overstayed their visitor status for over 5 years and this would have gone unnoticed if they had not broken the law.

I believe most illegals are overstayers as mentioned earlier by someone and not asylum seekers.

[John]

I watched John Reid make his statement in the House of Commons ... and yes, embarkation controls are in there. But not immediately. The old card-based system will not be reintroduced. Instead they will bring in an electronic system.

Lots more by clicking here or by clicking here.

[jes2jes]

John,
This is an excerpt from the statement:

He promised to "double spending on enforcement and compliance by 2009/10", taking the annual budget in the area to £180m.

He said the extra funding would come from a combination of extra cash from the chancellor, "reprioritisation" of existing budgets and charging foreign nationals.
Reid's review also set out plans for biometric identity requirements such as finger printing for immigrants from the highest risk countries and border checks before they arrive in Britain by 2008.

And he said officials would "count everyone in and out by 2014".

He reaffirmed plans for a points-based system to attract skilled workers in shortage areas, but once again ruled out an amnesty for illegal immigrants.

1. Foreign Nationals living in the UK would fund part of this process which I think is not fair. The immigration charges currently are already exhorbitant and I see a further increase which will make it more expensive. Canada has reduced is RPRF to make their country more attractive to immigrants and we are scarring them off!

2. Enbarkment control in 2014? This is serious - Illegals would still come in with this time frame.

3. No amnesty - So how would he and the government solve the so called 500K + II in the system.

My analysis: There is nothing new in this statement to make immigration effective aside from separating the IND from the HO but remember it is the same people that would end up working in the new autonomous body with the same ideas from the previous IND.

I rest my case.

[Dawie]

2. Enbarkment control in 2014? This is serious - Illegals would still come in with this time frame.

Embarkation controls will do nothing to stop illegal immigrants. In fact it will have the unintended consequence of stopping those who would have gone home voluntarily from doing so. Great logic, huh?

When a bee flies into your house through an open window, does it make more sense to leave the window open so it can leave of its own accord, or to close the window so that it can buzz around your house and sting someone.

[JAJ]

Embarkation controls will do nothing to stop illegal immigrants. In fact it will have the unintended consequence of stopping those who would have gone home voluntarily from doing so. Great logic, huh?

That's not the experience in Australia. With embarkation controls, illegals are not prevented from leaving, but their details are noted for future reference.

Because of embarkation controls, the Australians also know who have overstayed their visas and this information can be used to track people down.

[Rogerio]

Anyway, i wish i never came to the UK.

Can you not leave?

[Dawie]

That's not the experience in Australia. With embarkation controls, illegals are not prevented from leaving, but their details are noted for future reference.

By "stopping" I don't mean physically prevented, I mean that people will be discouraged from leaving because noone will want a black mark against their name and not be allowed to return in the future.

Because of embarkation controls, the Australians also know who have overstayed their visas and this information can be used to track people down.

How is the Home Office going to track people down any more than they can now? They already have the details for thousands of people they want to deport like asylum seekers for example. The simple truth is that if someone is not living at the address that they supplied when they entered the country, there's not really a lot you can do to track them down. We have not (yet) reached an Orwellian utopia where Big Brother knows exactly where you are at all times.