EEA Family Permit Issued by Germany. Can i visit UK and Ire?

[docteurbenway]

Hi everyone,

here is my story i am a Russian national, married to a Spanish national. We got married in Spain.

We live and work in Germany. I have an EEA Family Member card issued by Germany. We wanted to go visit a some friends of my wife who live in the UK and also do a short tourism trip to Ireland.

We know about Directive 2004/38/EC. So we thought all is ok. Just to make sure in may of 2011 i have contacted the Irish embassy in Berlin and the Garda (Irish police) here is what they said:

"Non-nationals who are family members of a European Union citizen and
holders of a document called “Residence card of a family member of a Union
citizenâ€

[86ti]

So, i looked into the application form and it was 27 pages long with question and supporting documents about every single aspect of your private and financial life. All of that for a short tourism trip? This is totally against the spirit of Directive 2004/38/EC.

I think it is 17 pages. It looks overly long but that does not mean that you would have to fill out every single question (the form is also a catch-all for all kind of situations). This has been stated here uncountable times (Look through this forum, please. The question comes up on a weekly basis.) and this is also obvious from official UKBA documentation (for links see those threads). Finally, the UK obeys at least Article 5(4) of the Directive.

[docteurbenway]

So, i looked into the application form and it was 27 pages long with question and supporting documents about every single aspect of your private and financial life. All of that for a short tourism trip? This is totally against the spirit of Directive 2004/38/EC.

I think it is 17 pages. It looks overly long but that does not mean that you would have to fill out every single question (the form is also a catch-all for all kind of situations). This has been stated here uncountable times (Look through this forum, please. The question comes up on a weekly basis.) and this is also obvious from official UKBA documentation (for links see those threads). Finally, the UK obeys at least Article 5(4) of the Directive.

Thank you for the correction, it is 17 pages. Still Directive 2004/38/EC clearly states that if you have a valid EEA Family residence card issued by any member state in this case Germany this substitutes the need to get a visa if you are traveling with your wife.

Now, Ireland had a very similar situation, they changed the law and now all is well.

If you read this complaint
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/ ... 051_en.pdf

you can see that the EC is not satisfied with the UK interpretation of the directive and the whole need to get an EEA Family Permit looks very unconvincing.

[86ti]

Still Directive 2004/38/EC clearly states that if you have a valid EEA Family residence card[...]

And still, this has been discussed here ad nauseam as already stated above. All old news and your link is common knowledge here (the petitioner used to frequent this forum). Live with it or fight it. It is very unlikely that the UK would change their position unless forced to do so.

[ca.funke]

...I do understand that there is no land control between The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (much like between Holland and Germany for example). So crossing into Northern Ireland should be easy. Now you said that if we take a flight from Belfast to lets say London there is no passport control.

The thing is as you know airline crew do check your passport during boarding and may not let you on a plane if they don´t see a UK visa like document? And even if we manage to board and arrive in London, on the way back to Dublin or Belfast the same thing.


I know there is passport control of some sort on ferries between Dublin and Liverpool.

What do you think?

Hi docteurbenway,

If you fly domestic (e.g. from Belfast to London), they will check the passport ONLY as a mean to identify the passenger. This is NOT immigration control. They will NOT check visas or anything. You would be able to fly this route even if you were in the UK totally illegal. All you need is any at-most-2-years-expired passport, or even a drivers license will do!

See Easyjet´s rules as an example:
http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20040628_01.html

Although they say this is also applicable between UK&Ireland, I wouldn´t bet on it. My advice: Be safe and go from Belfast.

Same applies for the return-route: London-Belfast is UK-domestic, absolutely no problems to be expected.

...I do understand that there is no land control between The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland...

This is called CTA "Common Travel Area", which would be superfluous if UK/Ireland/IOM/Guernsey/Jersey (did I forget one of these silly "independent" islands?) had implemented Schengen in full. But that´s a political question which has been discussed here many times, so I´ll refrain from giving my usual assessment...


Explaining your example routes and how they fit in the scheme of things:

• The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland
  • land border "CTA"crossing, mostly no checks, although rarely there are checks! See >>here<< how to pass these checks, just in case
• Holland and Germany
  • this is Schengen
• Belfast to London
  • this is UK-domestic, absolutely no checks whatsoever
• London to Belfast
  • same as the other way, see previous point
• London to Dublin
  • international "CTA" flight, while "CTA"rules are sometimes ignored by Ireland, hence there might be checks...

Please, docteurbenway, do us the huge favour of providing feedback about your experiences after you come back!!!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

London to Dublin
international "CTA" flight, while "CTA"rules are sometimes ignored by Ireland, hence there might be checks...

When I last flew this route in 2009, there were definitely passport checks being run for all arriving passengers. Also tried it in 2008 and there were passport checks.

[ca.funke]

When I last flew this route in 2009, there were definitely passport checks being run for all arriving passengers. Also tried it in 2008 and there were passport checks.

I´m neither British nor Irish so I can´t try, however I´d love to know how this is supposed work:

The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the two countries. Since 1997, some controls are in effect on arrivals in Ireland from the UK but this does not mean that you are required to carry your Irish or UK passport with you when you travel between the countries. You must, however, carry an acceptable form of photo-identification, examples of which are listed below. (On arriving in Ireland you may sometimes be asked for valid official photo-identification such as a passport or driving licence which shows your nationality. This is to prove you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements.)

• A valid passport
  • You´re not obliged to carry a passport, as a replacement you may carry a... valid passport?
• A driver's licence with photo
  • doesn´t show the nationality
• An international student card
  • doesn´t show the nationality
• A national ID card
  • Neither the UK nor Ireland have them, so why are they even listed?
• A bus pass with photo
  • doesn´t show the nationality
• A Garda ID with photo
  • doesn´t show the nationality
• A work ID with photo
  • doesn´t show the nationality

The more I think about it the more flawed the "Common Travel Area" is. It is everything but a "Common Travel Area", it´s a "Common Area of confusion".

From all I gather it´s in place to either

• lull UK/Irish people into unawareness about the fact that checks do happen although they shouldn´t OR
• so it can be used as an excuse for the fact that the Irish/NI landborder is so poorly manned/patrolled

It´s exactly like Schengen´s situation with rebellious Denmark, except that the UK and Ireland are the only two main participants to the scheme, while one of them (Ireland) doesn´t care and hence render the whole thing superfluous...

[docteurbenway]

...I do understand that there is no land control between The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (much like between Holland and Germany for example). So crossing into Northern Ireland should be easy. Now you said that if we take a flight from Belfast to lets say London there is no passport control.

The thing is as you know airline crew do check your passport during boarding and may not let you on a plane if they don´t see a UK visa like document? And even if we manage to board and arrive in London, on the way back to Dublin or Belfast the same thing.


I know there is passport control of some sort on ferries between Dublin and Liverpool.

What do you think?

Hi docteurbenway,

If you fly domestic (e.g. from Belfast to London), they will check the passport ONLY as a mean to identify the passenger. This is NOT immigration control. They will NOT check visas or anything. You would be able to fly this route even if you were in the UK totally illegal. All you need is any at-most-2-years-expired passport, or even a drivers license will do!

See Easyjet´s rules as an example:
http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20040628_01.html

Although they say this is also applicable between UK&Ireland, I wouldn´t bet on it. My advice: Be safe and go from Belfast.

Same applies for the return-route: London-Belfast is UK-domestic, absolutely no problems to be expected.

...I do understand that there is no land control between The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland...

This is called CTA "Common Travel Area", which would be superfluous if UK/Ireland/IOM/Guernsey/Jersey (did I forget one of these silly "independent" islands?) had implemented Schengen in full. But that´s a political question which has been discussed here many times, so I´ll refrain from giving my usual assessment...


Explaining your example routes and how they fit in the scheme of things:

• The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland
  • land border "CTA"crossing, mostly no checks, although rarely there are checks! See >>here<< how to pass these checks, just in case
• Holland and Germany
  • this is Schengen
• Belfast to London
  • this is UK-domestic, absolutely no checks whatsoever
• London to Belfast
  • same as the other way, see previous point
• London to Dublin
  • international "CTA" flight, while "CTA"rules are sometimes ignored by Ireland, hence there might be checks...

Please, docteurbenway, do us the huge favour of providing feedback about your experiences after you come back!!!

Thank you so much for this very detailed answer.This makes a lot of sense. The only additional thing i want to ask you and anyone who can help, is to assist me in finding a link to this passage:

"Before an Immigration Officer refuses admission to a non-EEA national under
Regulation 11(2) because s/he does not produce an EEA family permit, the IO must
give the non-EEA national reasonable opportunity to provide by other means proof
that he/she is a family member of an EEA national with a right to accompany that
national or join him/her in the UK."

This is a very important defense point should we be checked.

The older links to this passage at the UK Visa site are no longer valid and i can´t find it anywhere.

[ca.funke]

...The only additional thing i want to ask you and anyone who can help, is to assist me in finding a link to this passage...

Hi docteurbenway,

if you read my post again, you´ll see this:

...See >>here<< how to pass these checks...

I suggest you follow the rabbit - eerrgh link

[docteurbenway]

When I last flew this route in 2009, there were definitely passport checks being run for all arriving passengers. Also tried it in 2008 and there were passport checks.

I´m neither British nor Irish so I can´t try, however I´d love to know how this is supposed work:

The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the two countries. Since 1997, some controls are in effect on arrivals in Ireland from the UK but this does not mean that you are required to carry your Irish or UK passport with you when you travel between the countries. You must, however, carry an acceptable form of photo-identification, examples of which are listed below. (On arriving in Ireland you may sometimes be asked for valid official photo-identification such as a passport or driving licence which shows your nationality. This is to prove you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements.)

• A valid passport
  • You´re not obliged to carry a passport, as a replacement you may carry a... valid passport?
• A driver's licence with photo
  • doesn´t show the nationality
• An international student card
  • doesn´t show the nationality
• A national ID card
  • Neither the UK nor Ireland have them, so why are they even listed?
• A bus pass with photo
  • doesn´t show the nationality
• A Garda ID with photo
  • doesn´t show the nationality
• A work ID with photo
  • doesn´t show the nationality

The more I think about it the more flawed the "Common Travel Area" is. It is everything but a "Common Travel Area", it´s a "Common Area of confusion".

From all I gather it´s in place to either

• lull UK/Irish people into unawareness about the fact that checks do happen although they shouldn´t OR
• so it can be used as an excuse for the fact that the Irish/NI landborder is so poorly manned/patrolled

It´s exactly like Schengen´s situation with rebellious Denmark, except that the UK and Ireland are the only two main participants to the scheme, while one of them (Ireland) doesn´t care and hence render the whole thing superfluous...

In light of what you have mentioned, let me share my story with you further. As i have mentioned i am Russian and my wife is Spanish. We have been living in Germany for 4 years now. I have been living in Germany a bit longer, around 6 years now. Before i met my wife i was a student in Germany with a normal student visa that i had to renew every 2 years. So my passport is full of these old visas, one of which is still valid. After we got married we applied to get me an EEA Family member card (German: Aufenthaltskarte für Familienangehörige des Unionsburgers) which was issued to me within 1 day (and not close to a year, which is the case in the UK from what i have heard).

While the card (which is a green paper not attached to the passport, though Germany is planning to introduce a credit card like biometric document soon) was being issued, i asked the German official if this card will render my old student visa void since it would now be redundant in light of the EEA Family card?

The lady official said that by law both the old student visa and the EEA Family card can exist side by side since the visa was derived from the German immigration law and the EEA Family card from Directive 2004/38/EC.

Well the reason why i am telling you this is, my wife and i travel to Spain from Germany every 2-3 months to visit family and every single time we have to board the plane when asked for ID to identify me as a passenger i give the check in people my passport and my EEA Family Card.

The airline people look at my EEA Family card as if it is written in some Chinese or alien letters and then put it aside. They then go on to look through my passport to find my old student visa(which looks like a standard schengen visa and is glued in the passport) and only after that they are satisfied. This goes on to show that airline crew are not familiar with documents. I wonder what will happen when my old student visa expires and they will have to accept my EEA Family card, would this lead us to long discussions with airline crew about Directive 2004/38/EC?

[docteurbenway]

...The only additional thing i want to ask you and anyone who can help, is to assist me in finding a link to this passage...

Hi docteurbenway,

if you read my post again, you´ll see this:

...See >>here<< how to pass these checks...

I suggest you follow the rabbit - eerrgh link

Hi, yes i read this in detail and i see this link, but when i click on it the page says that this is an old page and is out of date and finding the quote again on the UK Visas site is a drag.

[fysicus]

...The only additional thing i want to ask you and anyone who can help, is to assist me in finding a link to this passage...

It is a direct quote from the UK law: Regulation 11.4 of The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006.
Please check against any recent amendments (http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=78857
The regulations can also be found as Annex A to the European Casework Instructions

[docteurbenway]

...The only additional thing i want to ask you and anyone who can help, is to assist me in finding a link to this passage...

It is a direct quote from the UK law: Regulation 11.4 of The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006.
Please check against any recent amendments (http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=78857
The regulations can also be found as Annex A to the European Casework Instructions

Much obliged.

[fysicus]

The weirdest thing about the CTA (Common Travel Area) is that only British or Irish citizens can benefit from it. If you take this seriously, you will come to the conclusion that the passport of anybody crossing the UK-Irish border must be checked in order to establish if this person is entitled to crossing the border without his passport being checked!
However, when I travelled to Ireland by ferry it seems I have inherited the nationality of my car (which has British licence plates) and nobody ever asked to see my passport.

A flight from Spain to Germany is a domestic flight within the Schengen area, and you will not pass any immigration checkpoint (passport control by government officials), neither on departure nor arrival. Airline staff are not supposed to verify if you are legally present in the Schengen area; all they have to do is to verify your identity (matching the name on the ticket to the name in the passport, or something like that) for security purposes. Budget airlines in particular often go way beyond that, however. If you would be denied boarding because they would claim you don't have a valid visa you can sue them under the Denied Boarding Directive and claim maximum compensation.

[ca.funke]

The airline people look at my EEA Family card as if it is written in some Chinese or alien letters and then put it aside. They then go on to look through my passport to find my old student visa...

Sounds familiar. It was the same with my wife.

We adopted the following strategy:

• Hand over family-member card (only) first
• wait a little (5-15 seconds depending on reaction), have them examine the card a bit
• Before being asked questions, hand over the passport with the words "the visa is the card which you already hold in your hand, no need to search through the passport"

Unfortunately this visa-type is generally unknown (I wish I knew why), but we were effectively never refused in the end. Worst case scenario was being taken to interview-rooms with police, where they had to establish the rules...

Hi, yes i read this in detail and i see this links, but when i click on it the page says that this is an old page and is out of date and finding the quote again on the UK Visas site is a drag.

Hi, sorry about that, I should have checked the link before being smart.

Thanks to fysicus you should now have everything which is needed.

Enjoy your trip and please do provide feedback!

All the best, rgds, Christian

[ca.funke]

The weirdest thing about the CTA (Common Travel Area) is that only British or Irish citizens can benefit from it....

This is exactly what I deem "unequal treatment between EU-citizens" and hence >>filed a complaint with the Commission<<.

There was a reply saying that it´s perfectly legal for the UK and Ireland to do this... I´ll cite it some time later next week.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The weirdest thing about the CTA (Common Travel Area) is that only British or Irish citizens can benefit from it. If you take this seriously, you will come to the conclusion that the passport of anybody crossing the UK-Irish border must be checked in order to establish if this person is entitled to crossing the border without his passport being checked!
However, when I travelled to Ireland by ferry it seems I have inherited the nationality of my car (which has British licence plates) and nobody ever asked to see my passport.

Agreed! How a Black/Latino/Arab looking British/Irish citizens manage to travel without a passport, would be beyond me.

I suspect the reality is that 99% of the people traveling carry some sort of ID which positively identifies their citizenship. And that border guards use speech patterns to identify who they want to ask for proof of citizenship.

[docteurbenway]

The airline people look at my EEA Family card as if it is written in some Chinese or alien letters and then put it aside. They then go on to look through my passport to find my old student visa...

Sounds familiar. It was the same with my wife.

We adopted the following strategy:

• Hand over family-member card (only) first
• wait a little (5-15 seconds depending on reaction), have them examine the card a bit
• Before being asked questions, hand over the passport with the words "the visa is the card which you already hold in your hand, no need to search through the passport"

Unfortunately this visa-type is generally unknown (I wish I knew why), but we were effectively never refused in the end. Worst case scenario was being taken to interview-rooms with police, where they had to establish the rules...

Hi, yes i read this in detail and i see this links, but when i click on it the page says that this is an old page and is out of date and finding the quote again on the UK Visas site is a drag.

Hi, sorry about that, I should have checked the link before being smart.

Thanks to fysicus you should now have everything which is needed.

Enjoy your trip and please do provide feedback!

All the best, rgds, Christian

Hi Christian, thank you for your ideas. I think the fact that airline crew, police and/or immigration officials do not know much about different visa types other than the one that looks "normal" meaning is a sticker in your passport is very upsetting.

You said the worst case is they take you to a police office and you have to explain yourself, were you subjected to that?

It seems the more rights you have the less people know about them and the worse you are treated.

I also blame the fact that EEA Family cards do not have a uniform appearance and do not clearly state the name of your spouse and the fact that they are issued in accordance with directive 2004/38/EC. Even the name of the document is disputed: "EEA Family member residents card", "Residents card for family members of an EEA citizen", "EEA Family Permit", etc...

This is especially confusing when the card is issued in a language different from the one spoken in the state you are traveling to.

Here is what my card looks like http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufenthaltskarte

so when i travel with my wife from Germany to Spain or Portugal airline crew look at me silly and try to find a "normal" visa.

Partially i do not blame them, do you honestly expect them to take your word for it? Overall a very sad state of affairs to be in.

[docteurbenway]

The weirdest thing about the CTA (Common Travel Area) is that only British or Irish citizens can benefit from it....

This is exactly what I deem "unequal treatment between EU-citizens" and hence >>filed a complaint with the Commission<<.

There was a reply saying that it´s perfectly legal for the UK and Ireland to do this... I´ll cite it some time later next week.

I also wanted to ask you about your post here http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 9173def129

i understand that the EC updated you in may saying that Ireland has already adopted it´s laws to comply with Directive 2004/38/EC (which is true from my experience).

They also said that the UK is under investigation at the moment, any news on that?

Also i find this quote from your post here http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 661#244661

namely:

"introduction of full immigration controls for non-CTA nationals of countries other than the UK, the Republic of Ireland and the Crown dependencies on all sea and air routes by 2014" very discouraging for any potential travelers to the UK.

The future is supposed to bring us a solution to these problems and not more complications. This is especially sad in light of the whole Schengen revision with Denmark and so on, these events give even more excuses for pro-passport control plans. They simply say:" Haha..the Schengen does not satisfy it´s own members and you expect us to drop the control!"

Thanks

[docteurbenway]

The weirdest thing about the CTA (Common Travel Area) is that only British or Irish citizens can benefit from it. If you take this seriously, you will come to the conclusion that the passport of anybody crossing the UK-Irish border must be checked in order to establish if this person is entitled to crossing the border without his passport being checked!
However, when I travelled to Ireland by ferry it seems I have inherited the nationality of my car (which has British licence plates) and nobody ever asked to see my passport.

A flight from Spain to Germany is a domestic flight within the Schengen area, and you will not pass any immigration checkpoint (passport control by government officials), neither on departure nor arrival. Airline staff are not supposed to verify if you are legally present in the Schengen area; all they have to do is to verify your identity (matching the name on the ticket to the name in the passport, or something like that) for security purposes. Budget airlines in particular often go way beyond that, however. If you would be denied boarding because they would claim you don't have a valid visa you can sue them under the Denied Boarding Directive and claim maximum compensation.

As you have said, many airlines oblige you to pass through a "visa checking" procedure before they even let you go onto the plane.

Example, my wife and i flew a few times with Ryanair from Germany to Spain, while we were in a check in line a representative of the airline asked me to come with him to a stand where another airline worker(NOTE: not a customs or immigration official or a policeman, but an employee of the airline) a young lady took my passport and began checking it very carefully for roughly 5 minutes. Meanwhile my wife had to wait with the bags. On the way back same thing.

Here is some fun reading material from the Ryanair website (i am sure other airlines have similar pages):

http://www.ryanair.com/en/terms-and-con ... umentation

"Ryanair does NOT accept driver licences, residence cards, family books, seaman books, a police report (issued in the event of travel document loss/theft), military ID cards etc. Expired or damaged forms of photo-id will not be accepted on any flight."

[86ti]

Here is some fun reading material from the Ryanair website (i am sure other airlines have similar pages):

http://www.ryanair.com/en/terms-and-con ... umentation

"Ryanair does NOT accept driver licences, residence cards, family books, seaman books, a police report (issued in the event of travel document loss/theft), military ID cards etc. Expired or damaged forms of photo-id will not be accepted on any flight."

I think you misinterpret that web page. All they are saying is that a 'residence card' will not be accepted as proof of idenity (which it is not). And I doubt that they are specifially referring to a EEA family member residence card at that point. I suspect they use that term loosely to refer to residence permits that are issued as separate documents.

[alekos]

Here is some fun reading material from the Ryanair website (i am sure other airlines have similar pages):

http://www.ryanair.com/en/terms-and-con ... umentation

"Ryanair does NOT accept driver licences, residence cards, family books, seaman books, a police report (issued in the event of travel document loss/theft), military ID cards etc. Expired or damaged forms of photo-id will not be accepted on any flight."

I think you misinterpret that web page. All they are saying is that a 'residence card' will not be accepted as proof of idenity (which it is not). And I doubt that they are specifially referring to a EEA family member residence card at that point. I suspect they use that term loosely to refer to residence permits that are issued as separate documents.

I agree with your interpretation 86ti