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Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, CR001, zimba, meself2
I think it is 17 pages. It looks overly long but that does not mean that you would have to fill out every single question (the form is also a catch-all for all kind of situations). This has been stated here uncountable times (Look through this forum, please. The question comes up on a weekly basis.) and this is also obvious from official UKBA documentation (for links see those threads). Finally, the UK obeys at least Article 5(4) of the Directive.docteurbenway wrote:So, i looked into the application form and it was 27 pages long with question and supporting documents about every single aspect of your private and financial life. All of that for a short tourism trip? This is totally against the spirit of Directive 2004/38/EC.
Thank you for the correction, it is 17 pages. Still Directive 2004/38/EC clearly states that if you have a valid EEA Family residence card issued by any member state in this case Germany this substitutes the need to get a visa if you are traveling with your wife.86ti wrote:I think it is 17 pages. It looks overly long but that does not mean that you would have to fill out every single question (the form is also a catch-all for all kind of situations). This has been stated here uncountable times (Look through this forum, please. The question comes up on a weekly basis.) and this is also obvious from official UKBA documentation (for links see those threads). Finally, the UK obeys at least Article 5(4) of the Directive.docteurbenway wrote:So, i looked into the application form and it was 27 pages long with question and supporting documents about every single aspect of your private and financial life. All of that for a short tourism trip? This is totally against the spirit of Directive 2004/38/EC.
And still, this has been discussed here ad nauseam as already stated above. All old news and your link is common knowledge here (the petitioner used to frequent this forum). Live with it or fight it. It is very unlikely that the UK would change their position unless forced to do so.docteurbenway wrote:Still Directive 2004/38/EC clearly states that if you have a valid EEA Family residence card[...]
Hi docteurbenway,(in a PM) docteurbenway wrote:...I do understand that there is no land control between The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (much like between Holland and Germany for example). So crossing into Northern Ireland should be easy. Now you said that if we take a flight from Belfast to lets say London there is no passport control.
The thing is as you know airline crew do check your passport during boarding and may not let you on a plane if they don´t see a UK visa like document? And even if we manage to board and arrive in London, on the way back to Dublin or Belfast the same thing.
I know there is passport control of some sort on ferries between Dublin and Liverpool.
What do you think?
This is called CTA "Common Travel Area", which would be superfluous if UK/Ireland/IOM/Guernsey/Jersey (did I forget one of these silly "independent" islands?) had implemented Schengen in full. But that´s a political question which has been discussed here many times, so I´ll refrain from giving my usual assessment...(in a PM) docteurbenway wrote:...I do understand that there is no land control between The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland...
When I last flew this route in 2009, there were definitely passport checks being run for all arriving passengers. Also tried it in 2008 and there were passport checks.London to Dublin
international "CTA" flight, while "CTA"rules are sometimes ignored by Ireland, hence there might be checks...
I´m neither British nor Irish so I can´t try, however I´d love to know how this is supposed work:Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:When I last flew this route in 2009, there were definitely passport checks being run for all arriving passengers. Also tried it in 2008 and there were passport checks.
The more I think about it the more flawed the "Common Travel Area" is. It is everything but a "Common Travel Area", it´s a "Common Area of confusion".[url=http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html]Citizen´s Information[/url] ([color=darkred]darkred[/color] inserted by me) wrote:The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the two countries. Since 1997, some controls are in effect on arrivals in Ireland from the UK but this does not mean that you are required to carry your Irish or UK passport with you when you travel between the countries. You must, however, carry an acceptable form of photo-identification, examples of which are listed below. (On arriving in Ireland you may sometimes be asked for valid official photo-identification such as a passport or driving licence which shows your nationality. This is to prove you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements.)
- A valid passport
- You´re not obliged to carry a passport, as a replacement you may carry a... valid passport?
- A driver's licence with photo
- doesn´t show the nationality
- An international student card
- doesn´t show the nationality
- A national ID card
- Neither the UK nor Ireland have them, so why are they even listed?
- A bus pass with photo
- doesn´t show the nationality
- A Garda ID with photo
- doesn´t show the nationality
- A work ID with photo
- doesn´t show the nationality
ca.funke wrote:Hi docteurbenway,(in a PM) docteurbenway wrote:...I do understand that there is no land control between The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland (much like between Holland and Germany for example). So crossing into Northern Ireland should be easy. Now you said that if we take a flight from Belfast to lets say London there is no passport control.
The thing is as you know airline crew do check your passport during boarding and may not let you on a plane if they don´t see a UK visa like document? And even if we manage to board and arrive in London, on the way back to Dublin or Belfast the same thing.
I know there is passport control of some sort on ferries between Dublin and Liverpool.
What do you think?
If you fly domestic (e.g. from Belfast to London), they will check the passport ONLY as a mean to identify the passenger. This is NOT immigration control. They will NOT check visas or anything. You would be able to fly this route even if you were in the UK totally illegal. All you need is any at-most-2-years-expired passport, or even a drivers license will do!
See Easyjet´s rules as an example:
http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20040628_01.html
Although they say this is also applicable between UK&Ireland, I wouldn´t bet on it. My advice: Be safe and go from Belfast.
Same applies for the return-route: London-Belfast is UK-domestic, absolutely no problems to be expected.
This is called CTA "Common Travel Area", which would be superfluous if UK/Ireland/IOM/Guernsey/Jersey (did I forget one of these silly "independent" islands?) had implemented Schengen in full. But that´s a political question which has been discussed here many times, so I´ll refrain from giving my usual assessment...(in a PM) docteurbenway wrote:...I do understand that there is no land control between The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland...
Explaining your example routes and how they fit in the scheme of things:Please, docteurbenway, do us the huge favour of providing feedback about your experiences after you come back!!!
- The Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland
- land border "CTA"crossing, mostly no checks, although rarely there are checks! See >>here<< how to pass these checks, just in case
- Holland and Germany
- this is Schengen
- Belfast to London
- this is UK-domestic, absolutely no checks whatsoever
- London to Belfast
- same as the other way, see previous point
- London to Dublin
- international "CTA" flight, while "CTA"rules are sometimes ignored by Ireland, hence there might be checks...
Hi docteurbenway,docteurbenway wrote:...The only additional thing i want to ask you and anyone who can help, is to assist me in finding a link to this passage...
I suggest you follow the rabbit - eerrgh linkca.funke wrote:...See >>here<< how to pass these checks...
In light of what you have mentioned, let me share my story with you further. As i have mentioned i am Russian and my wife is Spanish. We have been living in Germany for 4 years now. I have been living in Germany a bit longer, around 6 years now. Before i met my wife i was a student in Germany with a normal student visa that i had to renew every 2 years. So my passport is full of these old visas, one of which is still valid. After we got married we applied to get me an EEA Family member card (German: Aufenthaltskarte für Familienangehörige des Unionsburgers) which was issued to me within 1 day (and not close to a year, which is the case in the UK from what i have heard).ca.funke wrote:I´m neither British nor Irish so I can´t try, however I´d love to know how this is supposed work:Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:When I last flew this route in 2009, there were definitely passport checks being run for all arriving passengers. Also tried it in 2008 and there were passport checks.
The more I think about it the more flawed the "Common Travel Area" is. It is everything but a "Common Travel Area", it´s a "Common Area of confusion".[url=http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html]Citizen´s Information[/url] ([color=darkred]darkred[/color] inserted by me) wrote:The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the two countries. Since 1997, some controls are in effect on arrivals in Ireland from the UK but this does not mean that you are required to carry your Irish or UK passport with you when you travel between the countries. You must, however, carry an acceptable form of photo-identification, examples of which are listed below. (On arriving in Ireland you may sometimes be asked for valid official photo-identification such as a passport or driving licence which shows your nationality. This is to prove you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements.)
- A valid passport
- You´re not obliged to carry a passport, as a replacement you may carry a... valid passport?
- A driver's licence with photo
- doesn´t show the nationality
- An international student card
- doesn´t show the nationality
- A national ID card
- Neither the UK nor Ireland have them, so why are they even listed?
- A bus pass with photo
- doesn´t show the nationality
- A Garda ID with photo
- doesn´t show the nationality
- A work ID with photo
- doesn´t show the nationality
From all I gather it´s in place to eitherIt´s exactly like Schengen´s situation with rebellious Denmark, except that the UK and Ireland are the only two main participants to the scheme, while one of them (Ireland) doesn´t care and hence render the whole thing superfluous...
- lull UK/Irish people into unawareness about the fact that checks do happen although they shouldn´t OR
- so it can be used as an excuse for the fact that the Irish/NI landborder is so poorly manned/patrolled
Hi, yes i read this in detail and i see this link, but when i click on it the page says that this is an old page and is out of date and finding the quote again on the UK Visas site is a drag.ca.funke wrote:Hi docteurbenway,docteurbenway wrote:...The only additional thing i want to ask you and anyone who can help, is to assist me in finding a link to this passage...
if you read my post again, you´ll see this:
I suggest you follow the rabbit - eerrgh linkca.funke wrote:...See >>here<< how to pass these checks...
It is a direct quote from the UK law: Regulation 11.4 of The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006.docteurbenway wrote:...The only additional thing i want to ask you and anyone who can help, is to assist me in finding a link to this passage...
Much obliged.fysicus wrote:It is a direct quote from the UK law: Regulation 11.4 of The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006.docteurbenway wrote:...The only additional thing i want to ask you and anyone who can help, is to assist me in finding a link to this passage...
Please check against any recent amendments (http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=78857
The regulations can also be found as Annex A to the European Casework Instructions
Sounds familiar. It was the same with my wife.docteurbenway wrote:The airline people look at my EEA Family card as if it is written in some Chinese or alien letters and then put it aside. They then go on to look through my passport to find my old student visa...
Hi, sorry about that, I should have checked the link before being smart.docteurbenway wrote:Hi, yes i read this in detail and i see this links, but when i click on it the page says that this is an old page and is out of date and finding the quote again on the UK Visas site is a drag.
This is exactly what I deem "unequal treatment between EU-citizens" and hence >>filed a complaint with the Commission<<.fysicus wrote:The weirdest thing about the CTA (Common Travel Area) is that only British or Irish citizens can benefit from it....
Agreed! How a Black/Latino/Arab looking British/Irish citizens manage to travel without a passport, would be beyond me.fysicus wrote:The weirdest thing about the CTA (Common Travel Area) is that only British or Irish citizens can benefit from it. If you take this seriously, you will come to the conclusion that the passport of anybody crossing the UK-Irish border must be checked in order to establish if this person is entitled to crossing the border without his passport being checked!
However, when I travelled to Ireland by ferry it seems I have inherited the nationality of my car (which has British licence plates) and nobody ever asked to see my passport.
Hi Christian, thank you for your ideas. I think the fact that airline crew, police and/or immigration officials do not know much about different visa types other than the one that looks "normal" meaning is a sticker in your passport is very upsetting.ca.funke wrote:Sounds familiar. It was the same with my wife.docteurbenway wrote:The airline people look at my EEA Family card as if it is written in some Chinese or alien letters and then put it aside. They then go on to look through my passport to find my old student visa...
We adopted the following strategy:Unfortunately this visa-type is generally unknown (I wish I knew why), but we were effectively never refused in the end. Worst case scenario was being taken to interview-rooms with police, where they had to establish the rules...
- Hand over family-member card (only) first
- wait a little (5-15 seconds depending on reaction), have them examine the card a bit
- Before being asked questions, hand over the passport with the words "the visa is the card which you already hold in your hand, no need to search through the passport"
Hi, sorry about that, I should have checked the link before being smart.docteurbenway wrote:Hi, yes i read this in detail and i see this links, but when i click on it the page says that this is an old page and is out of date and finding the quote again on the UK Visas site is a drag.
Thanks to fysicus you should now have everything which is needed.
Enjoy your trip and please do provide feedback!
All the best, rgds, Christian
I also wanted to ask you about your post here http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 9173def129ca.funke wrote:This is exactly what I deem "unequal treatment between EU-citizens" and hence >>filed a complaint with the Commission<<.fysicus wrote:The weirdest thing about the CTA (Common Travel Area) is that only British or Irish citizens can benefit from it....
There was a reply saying that it´s perfectly legal for the UK and Ireland to do this... I´ll cite it some time later next week.
As you have said, many airlines oblige you to pass through a "visa checking" procedure before they even let you go onto the plane.fysicus wrote:The weirdest thing about the CTA (Common Travel Area) is that only British or Irish citizens can benefit from it. If you take this seriously, you will come to the conclusion that the passport of anybody crossing the UK-Irish border must be checked in order to establish if this person is entitled to crossing the border without his passport being checked!
However, when I travelled to Ireland by ferry it seems I have inherited the nationality of my car (which has British licence plates) and nobody ever asked to see my passport.
A flight from Spain to Germany is a domestic flight within the Schengen area, and you will not pass any immigration checkpoint (passport control by government officials), neither on departure nor arrival. Airline staff are not supposed to verify if you are legally present in the Schengen area; all they have to do is to verify your identity (matching the name on the ticket to the name in the passport, or something like that) for security purposes. Budget airlines in particular often go way beyond that, however. If you would be denied boarding because they would claim you don't have a valid visa you can sue them under the Denied Boarding Directive and claim maximum compensation.
I think you misinterpret that web page. All they are saying is that a 'residence card' will not be accepted as proof of idenity (which it is not). And I doubt that they are specifially referring to a EEA family member residence card at that point. I suspect they use that term loosely to refer to residence permits that are issued as separate documents.docteurbenway wrote:Here is some fun reading material from the Ryanair website (i am sure other airlines have similar pages):
http://www.ryanair.com/en/terms-and-con ... umentation
"Ryanair does NOT accept driver licences, residence cards, family books, seaman books, a police report (issued in the event of travel document loss/theft), military ID cards etc. Expired or damaged forms of photo-id will not be accepted on any flight."
I agree with your interpretation 86ti86ti wrote:I think you misinterpret that web page. All they are saying is that a 'residence card' will not be accepted as proof of idenity (which it is not). And I doubt that they are specifially referring to a EEA family member residence card at that point. I suspect they use that term loosely to refer to residence permits that are issued as separate documents.docteurbenway wrote:Here is some fun reading material from the Ryanair website (i am sure other airlines have similar pages):
http://www.ryanair.com/en/terms-and-con ... umentation
"Ryanair does NOT accept driver licences, residence cards, family books, seaman books, a police report (issued in the event of travel document loss/theft), military ID cards etc. Expired or damaged forms of photo-id will not be accepted on any flight."