5 years for ILR rule implemented

[alien]

If BAPIO can proceed with JR why can't we?

"VBSI as a group right now chose to cooperate with CL"

I think that is the reason. And if you don't agree what "the voice" does for you then:

"this does not mean of course that we will prevent anyone else to get organised and pursue this route"

How jolly decent of them. I think this says alot about the thinking.

Really I've given up on this. If you make a positive contribution which doesn't fit in with their agenda, you are dismissed as being on the margins.

Lets just remember... we were first told that JR was being actively considered and was being held back pending an outcome on lobbying.

Now we're told - of course CL considered it straight away. But it wouldn't have worked anyway because it

"would be impossible to win. Because believe it or not, the law itself is not retrospective."

Oh yes... and please don't question what we do as "your" voice because:

"Arguing about this now makes no sense because there has already been three months after the law got implemented, so a JR on it isn't possible anymore anyway. "

Now I'm not going to waste time going around this again and again. But its a total misrepresentation of the law to say "would be impossible to win. Because believe it or not, the law itself is not retrospective". Whether or not a law is retrospective or not has little to do with whether its reviewable. Indeed on my very post (p71) I noted that I didn't believe the law change was retrospective, but this was not the main issue. A key legal authority for what I'm saying is:

Council of Civil Service Unions v Minister for the Civil Service [1985] AC374 (known as the "GCHQ" case).

A relevent quote by Lord Fraser (I'm sure he also had a "huge portfolio of successful cases" before becoming a Law Lord) from his judgment in the above case when discussing grounds for JR:

"Legitimate...expectation may arise either from an express promise given on behalf of a public authority or from the existence of a regular practice which the claimant can reasonably expect to continue"

That for me sums up the situation faced by BAPAIO and why they've been successful in their initial hearing.

Anyway, there is no point going further. The VBSI are free to make their own decision and credit to them for doing the work they have done.

My criticism is this:
1) They hold themselves out to be the "voice" of immigrants. So they must take into account what people think - not lecture them on a "we know best" basis and resentfully dismiss alternative opinion without properly addressing it.

2) It clear from their website poll people were interested in taking legal action - and even funding it to some extent. Its a pity this wasn't followed up.

3) Having been told to "wait for the lobbying" process before starting a JR, we're now told its too late - and they claim that they believed it wouldn't have work all along. Make your own conclusions about this.

4). Further more, they've announced they won't cooperate with other solicitors including Stephen Kong unless they are convinced its worthwhile. This seems odd - and not very inclusive. Which is what they should be if they claim to represent skilled immigrants as a whole.

So good luck to the VBSI - I sincerely hope the lobbying route works. If people wish to go the legal route, then it seems VBSI won't be supporting it - except for some of CLs clients via a (predictably) unnamed QC. I suggest if you are in this situation you seek your own independent legal advice from a lawyer experienced in JR. Or consider contacting Stephen Kong who is obviously not fashionable in VBSI circles but has, it seems, to have made some progress. He did make an appeal a while back.

If I were an immigrant, I would feel cheated and patronised. And I would resent the VBSI telling the world at large that they are my voice.

Good luck to everybody.

[mona-de-bois]

Alien, I'm really sad to say this, but I agree with you on most of the points. I do have an association with VBSI and tried to write to them expressing my concerns regarding the way their decisions are taken, regarding transparency of their behaviour, etc. Not sure my point was taken though. Maybe I just failed to express my concerns clearly. You did it much better, I hope you'll be heard.

It's a real shame to see this decline because VBSI was a great idea, and remarkably well started. My only hope it's just a phase, and the people who now run VBSI in such an authoritarian and non-transparent way will revise their policy or maybe will be succeeded by people with another approach. I don't want to see VBSI die, because it's a wonderful idea and we really need something like this.

Alien, you told you're going to be in Britain around 15th August and can go to a lawyer with someone who is willing to do this. As nobody volunteered, I'll do it. Although, I know nothing about legal stuff. Will you help me to choose a law firm? Thank you.

My criticism is this:
1) They hold themselves out to be the "voice" of immigrants. So they must take into account what people think - not lecture them on a "we know best" basis and resentfully dismiss alternative opinion without properly addressing it.

2) It clear from their website poll people were interested in taking legal action - and even funding it to some extent. Its a pity this wasn't followed up.

3) Having been told to "wait for the lobbying" process before starting a JR, we're now told its too late - and they claim that they believed it wouldn't have work all along. Make your own conclusions about this.

4). Further more, they've announced they won't cooperate with other solicitors including Stephen Kong unless they are convinced its worthwhile. This seems odd - and not very inclusive. Which is what they should be if they claim to represent skilled immigrants as a whole.

So good luck to the VBSI - I sincerely hope the lobbying route works. If people wish to go the legal route, then it seems VBSI won't be supporting it - except for some of CLs clients via a (predictably) unnamed QC. I suggest if you are in this situation you seek your own independent legal advice from a lawyer experienced in JR. Or consider contacting Stephen Kong who is obviously not fashionable in VBSI circles but has, it seems, to have made some progress. He did make an appeal a while back.

If I were an immigrant, I would feel cheated and patronised. And I would resent the VBSI telling the world at large that they are my voice.

Good luck to everybody.

[morerightsformigrants]

guys i think you are being too harsh, i think VBSI is in a difficult situation, they had a meeting with the immigration minister and they were able to show him face to face some harship cases which itself i think it's an achievement, Now i think the main reason why VBSI has to support maybe a bit more CL is because it's sending a message to the immigration minister, he will know that VBSI want to solve this peacefully, so he will be more willing to be in touch with them. but if he knows that VBSI is supporting or planning to sue them right now then he will just stop any talks with VBSI and wait for a court decision instead.

by saying this it doesn't mean that everyone else has to do the same thing quite opposite i think you can support JR or any legal action if you want to put more pressure on HO. our goal is the same so it doesn't really matter what your support is CL or JR.

besides if VBSI gets a negative response or no response at all they will of course look for an alternative approach either JR or legal action but we have to remember that VBSI human and financial resources are limited. at the end of the day they are just a bunch of guys trying to make a difference.

sorry if i have upset anyone with my comments

Alien, I'm really sad to say this, but I agree with you on most of the points. I do have an association with VBSI and tried to write to them expressing my concerns regarding the way their decisions are taken, regarding transparency of their behaviour, etc. Not sure my point was taken though. Maybe I just failed to express my concerns clearly. You did it much better, I hope you'll be heard.

It's a real shame to see this decline because VBSI was a great idea, and remarkably well started. My only hope it's just a phase, and the people who now run VBSI in such an authoritarian and non-transparent way will revise their policy or maybe will be succeeded by people with another approach. I don't want to see VBSI die, because it's a wonderful idea and we really need something like this.

Alien, you told you're going to be in Britain around 15th August and can go to a lawyer with someone who is willing to do this. As nobody volunteered, I'll do it. Although, I know nothing about legal stuff. Will you help me to choose a law firm? Thank you.

My criticism is this:
1) They hold themselves out to be the "voice" of immigrants. So they must take into account what people think - not lecture them on a "we know best" basis and resentfully dismiss alternative opinion without properly addressing it.

2) It clear from their website poll people were interested in taking legal action - and even funding it to some extent. Its a pity this wasn't followed up.

3) Having been told to "wait for the lobbying" process before starting a JR, we're now told its too late - and they claim that they believed it wouldn't have work all along. Make your own conclusions about this.

4). Further more, they've announced they won't cooperate with other solicitors including Stephen Kong unless they are convinced its worthwhile. This seems odd - and not very inclusive. Which is what they should be if they claim to represent skilled immigrants as a whole.

So good luck to the VBSI - I sincerely hope the lobbying route works. If people wish to go the legal route, then it seems VBSI won't be supporting it - except for some of CLs clients via a (predictably) unnamed QC. I suggest if you are in this situation you seek your own independent legal advice from a lawyer experienced in JR. Or consider contacting Stephen Kong who is obviously not fashionable in VBSI circles but has, it seems, to have made some progress. He did make an appeal a while back.

If I were an immigrant, I would feel cheated and patronised. And I would resent the VBSI telling the world at large that they are my voice.

Good luck to everybody.

[gaurav]

I have received a reply from my Local MP who forwarded my concerns to Liam Byrne, he has attached his correspondence with the Liam Byrne as well with the letter.Liam Byrne has given the same argument which has given before but has asked for any DETAILS of unittended hardships.If you guys can give me some input on this my I will forward it to my local MP Jim Cousins again.

[ssi]

gaurav, could you please email to <info at vbsi.org.uk> and I will send you the dossier handed to Liam Byrne yesterday? Have you asked Jim Cousins (Labour MP for Newcastle upon Tyne Central) to sign the EDM?

Everyone, please do not issue snide attacks at the VBSI. If you feel you need more transparency than the Website provides, please ask your specific questions. How else would we know which information is missing there? When someone accuses us of lecturing and uses the strongly imperative mood: "VBSI must ..., it should,...", it does not make you look good in the first place. Please be civil. Please ask your questions and send your suggestions. Please do not be offended if your ideas are not met with immediate enthusiasm.

[a11]

I have received a reply from my Local MP who forwarded my concerns to Liam Byrne, he has attached his correspondence with the Liam Byrne as well with the letter.Liam Byrne has given the same argument which has given before but has asked for any DETAILS of unittended hardships.If you guys can give me some input on this my I will forward it to my local MP Jim Cousins again.

Gaurav, thanks very much for your support.

Two dossiers of specific cases (one from VBSI and another one from CL) had been handed over to Liam Byrne during the meeting. He seemed genuinely happy to be able to see them - which does not guarantee him making any decision in our favour, of course. We'll see.

I think, in replying to your MP, you can mention this fact. It would also be very helpful if you could explain to your MP that LB is probably making his decision on the issue right now and their (your MPs) impact would be extremely important.

[chibuya]

I don’t want to say anything bad about VBSI as I thought the bottom line was these guys are taking some actions and they are trying to help. I think most people will appreciate what has been done.

However there are some posts raise my concerns. Most people are putting their hope on VBSI, and VBSI is an unofficial organisation representing all the affected persons. It all start as very nice and set out some different routes to win this battle. I support this organisation is because it is neutral.

I don’t know from when and how VBSI become CL’s private fan club. Anything excepting for CL’s campaign is excluded in their activities.

What worries me more is when people like ‘ bad paul’ and ‘ alien’ have given some really good suggestions they have been regarded as ‘making trouble’.

Democracy is the core value of UK politics. I could not understand why these people are told off instead of their points being addressed.

I have noticed that this forum has been quietening down a bit and I don’ t think I will put further comments unless there are something really constructive.

[ssi]

I don’t know from when and how VBSI become CL’s private fan club.

I joined the VBSI very recently, but to the best of my knowledge, the group has collaborated (fruitfully) with CL since inception in May 2006. All information is available on the website.

Anything excepting for CL’s campaign is excluded in their activities.

As Mona pointed out, correctly, there are very few people actively working in the VBSI right now. These people voted, democratically, to follow the lobbying route. This is what they are doing (to some extent successfully).

What worries me more is when people like ‘ bad paul’ ‘ alien’ and ‘wazman’ have given some really good suggestions they have been regarded as ‘making trouble’.

The good suggestions have not been dismissed, and they are appreciated. All these people were invited to join the VBSI and implement their suggestions. No one in the VBSI can/want to do it for them right now.

why these people have been told off.

Some of these people, perhaps inadvertently, expressed themselves in the way, which, I believe, is very upsetting to those who dedicated themselves to practical actions. If, being upset, I said something similarly upsetting, I am sorry.

[alien]

ssi:

If you read back at Mona's last post, mine, Chibuya's, and in the past BadPaul etc I think you will see some serious criticism. People trusted the VBSI to represent them, but you continue to be defensive - even criticising the style of peoples' post - a poor substitute to addressing substantive points.

The way people have dropping out, and the offline messages that are flying around makes the point very well. Do you see what happens when a lobbying organisation is seen not to be responding to the people it claims to represent?

As for the "fruitful" collaboration with CL, that claim speaks for itself. I wish you luck with the lobbying, but the only tangible result so far is it was used by a11 to justify a delay to JR (widely supported in your own website poll) to a point where you can say it was too late - and then add it would never have worked in the first place. BAPIO and Stephen Kong have obviously taken a different view.

A reason given by the government for extending the 4 to 5 year period is so that people become more used to the British way of doing things.

This kind of politics may work very well in Chinatown circles. But it has limitations beyond this - and sadly will only serve to support a growing section of the British public that supports "anti-immigrant" policies.

[ssi]

you will see some serious criticism.

I can see criticism, but I cannot see what you expect us to do. What would you do, if you were in my shoes?

People trusted the VBSI to represent them

I am one of these people. When, a month ago, I found out about the VBSI, I started to do what I could to represent myself there. I did not demand that people who created the VBSI must represent me, and my voice, exactly the way I told them.

[alien]

When, a month ago, I found out about the VBSI, I started to do what I could to represent myself there. I did not demand that people who created the VBSI must represented me, and my voice, exactly the way I told them.

That's the problem "I started to do what I could to represent myself there". You are not representing yourself, and neither should the VBSI represent you. You are claiming to represent skilled immigrants as a whole.

Quote from VBSI website: "Voice of Britain's Skilled Immigrants"
Quote from VBSI website: "We are planning legal action"
Poll result: 95.14% supporting. 67.21% said they would contribute money (555 people).

But you're not planning legal action are you? Because as you said, you'd "democratically" decided to collaborate with CL in lobbying. And a11 announced that you wouldn't "co-operate" with Stephen Kong or other lawyers that might want to go the legal route.

Doesn't seem like representative democracy to me.

[ssi]

Quote from VBSI website: "Voice of Britain's Skilled Immigrants"

Should VBSI be renamed into VSBSI (Voice of Some of Britain's Skilled Immigrants)? Should the UK Government be renamed into the Government of Some of the UK Population?

Quote from VBSI website: "We are planning legal action"
Poll result: 95.14% supporting. 67.21% said they would contribute money (555 people).

People are prepared to contribute money (£10-50 most of them). It would be too easy, and much cheaper, than paying for FLR extension. So far NO ONE stepped forward and offered to contribute time, knowledge, and experience for the legal route.

But you're not planning legal action are you?

Legal action will be taken when, and if, lobbying fails.

Doesn't seem like representative democracy to me.

It is not. There was no election. All VBSI members are self-appointed. Anyone who wants to come and replace them is very welcome. What would you do, if you were in my shoes?

[alien]

Quote from VBSI website: "Voice of Britain's Skilled Immigrants"

Should VBSI be renamed into VSBSI (Voice of Some of Britain's Skilled Immigrante)? Should the UK Government be renamed into the Government of Some of the UK Population?

Quote from VBSI website: "We are planning legal action"
Poll result: 95.14% supporting. 67.21% said they would contribute money (555 people).

People are prepared to contribute money (£10-50 most of them). It would be too easy, and much cheaper, than paying for FLR extension. So far NO ONE stepped forward and offered to contribute time, knowledge, and experience for the legal route.

But you're not planning legal action are you?

Legal action will be taken when, and if, lobbying fails.

Doesn't seem like representative democracy to me.

It is not. There was no election. All VBSI members are self-appointed. Anyone who wants to come and replace them is very welcome. What would you do, if you were in my shoes?

Oh I would re-read the thread if I were you and at least make sure your story about VBSI policy fits with a11s before posting again. He has not only excluded legal action (says it wont work and is too late) but has also excluded co-operation with others including Stephen Kong and other lawyers on legal action - so of course they won't "step forward".

[ssi]

Oh I would re-read the thread if I were you and at least make sure your story about VBSI policy fits with a11s before posting again. He has not only excluded legal action (says it wont work and is too late) but has also excluded co-operation with others including Stephen Kong and other lawyers on legal action - so of course they won't "step forward".

I have just reread a11's post, you were referring to, and have talked to him on the phone. Either you misunderstood him or he did not make himself clear. Both from his post and telephone conversation follows that he agrees with me: "when, and if, lobbying fails, legal action will be taken". If you, alien, offer your helping hand, we, and, I assume, many other immigrants, would be most grateful.

[rooi_ding]

Alien

The VBSI is a fragile organization it is like a baby that was only born 3 months ago, there are still many things that it has to learn about how an organization functions and it will learn from its mistakes and will change its ways if it needs to. For now it is the only thing that we the immigrants who are on the sharp end of the sword have right now, mainly because no one else had the “balls” to do anything else except complain about people who are actually doing something. I am sure that the immigration department if they actually read this forum would love what is going on right now a few people are single handedly destroying the moral and the hope that people have.

Right now hope in the VBSI is all they have no matter how shaky it may seem, don’t surmise that they are pig headed or arrogant that they can not admit that maybe the route they are taking is wrong, we have to wait and see.

You might be right! If so, then I would suggest getting of your soap box and doing something about it, I know you are all the way in Taiwan but the VBSI started on MSN so maybe you can get your organization of the ground that way. I am assured that the VBSI will give you all the support you need in terms of advertising and evidence of hardship cases, I am even sure that some of the older members and new ones would meet with you online and discuss the possible route that you can take and maybe share the pit falls that we have experienced already

I am sure that in the next couple of days the new VBSI members will be circulating an email around informing us of your intended action. I await your further action

[stevej]

I see people get angry with each other - how helpful this is going to be with the whole situation?

I believe none of them have bad intentions though- so please stop putting each other into corners and let us look at the bigger picture!

[alien]

"when, and if, lobbying fails, legal action will be taken"

Noted.

I have recently had some private messages from people interested in going the legal route. In the meantime, if anybody else wants to consider legal action themselves, the summary of the legal case as I see it is contained in the following posts:

Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:12 pm, p71
Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:04 pm, p71
Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:12 pm, p72 (reply by mona-de-bois)

There is a (now famous) 3-month deadline for applying for judicial review which means its probably too late to challenge the policy itself. If you are coming up to your 4 years, and there has been no policy change then I would suggest taking some legal advice promptly. It may be that you can apply for ILR, get it refused (because of the new rules) and get your decision JR'ed. I believe once someone has successfully challenged a decision under the new rules, the government will not continue to apply them to people in similar circumstances.

I found a nice guide to JR online. It says something about the procedure as well as grounds. The "legitimate expectation" grounds I mentioned is referred to in the last sentence in 2). Decide for youself if this matches your situation:

http://www.publiclawproject.org.uk/simpleguide.html

It is, in fact, possible to do the whole thing yourself - and keep costs to a minimum (eg GBP30 Court Fee for the first hearing) but the law is complex and the serious danger is that you could unnecessarily lose and be held liable for a contribution to the costs of the government defending. So I would strongly advise anyone to seek legal advice from a lawyer specialising in Judicial Review. They could also advise on whether legal aid might be available.

Finally, I always took the view that legal action, or its threat, is a weapon that is part of the lobbying process. But we've been through that before and VBSI seems to have a different approach. Frankly I've had enough going round in circles and have nothing further to contribute except to wish it luck with its chosen course of action.

[ssi]

let us look at the bigger picture!

The current situation is that we are waiting for Liam Byrne's response to a very clear point made to him by the VBSI and NLCA. If his response is negative (or if he stalls for too long) we need to decide as to what to do next. Several people, and I agree with them, suggested to organise a further mass action - a much bigger demonstration to be held on a weekend, to raise awareness, before directing all resources towards a legal action. We need this because the previous demonstration on 16 June, although reported on by the BBC, was held on a work-day and many people could not come. We receive emails from people who still discover about the changes from the IND application forms, which they download for their 4-year ILR application. It is still too early after the meeting with the Immigration Minister and people are not yet responding. Hopefully, the situation will be clearer by the end of the week.

[stevej]

SSI donot you worry about it may be already too late to start the legal action?

[rooi_ding]

stevej

Yes, many people are debating amongst themselves the same thing happend for about month in April before VBSI was established in May. Then things started moving forward, however we reached a stagnant period quite recently, but everything has changed and the VBSI is now establishing itself again. There will always be some growing pains when people are trying to achieve a common objective.

Alien

Your thoughts on the legal action (as a threat) have been the established view of the VBSI for a long time. except your route is more aggressive which I am sure no one will have a problem with.

If you do establish an organization that pursues a legal route, then as I mentioned before the VBSI would most gladly pass on all the relevant evidence (in terms of hardship cases) onto you and your team, hopefully from your last post this does not mean that this is a parting of two different views but collaboration and establishment of two organizations aiming at achieving the same goal.

[stevej]

Rooi ding-

I donot fully get your post- i am just asking about if there are worries about the deadline ? I dont think it is a growing pain issue? - very confused..

What I am thinking is Law is law- I gather 3 months is 3 months or whatsoever time limits..

What should we do if we already missed the deadline?

[ssi]

SSI donot you worry about it may be already too late to start the legal action?

Alien has just expressed the same point we heard from CL and deduced ourselves from freely available legal documents. The proposed route, so far, is : apply for ILR, receive rejection, appeal, and go to court. A (predictably unnamed to protect his professional interests) QC specialising in JR can be a very good barrister to represent this case in the High Court.

[rooi_ding]

stevej

As you can see from aliens posts that yes the JR on the actually policy or rule change is too late. However anyone can take legal action against the HO if their application for ILR fails.

As you can see there are now 2 possible routes that people can support or they can support both at the same time. One is the more passive but constant pressure stance of the VBSI, and the second is hopefully a new organization which will begin a more aggressive stance with the legal action.

Both seem quite far removed from each other but if they work along side each other then they can be quite affective.

[rooi_ding]

stevej

hopefully you have a more a clearer view on the JR from alien, ssi and myself however you can go to the VBSI website and see what they have done, and contact alien through PM to see what they will be doing

[alien]

For the sake of clarification, I'm not setting up any "alternative" organisation to VBSI. Just a while back I said I'd go through the issues/possibilities with anyone if they were interested and I'm sticking to that for anyone who has contacted me.

I think its too late to get the momentum going for an alternative VBSI and its not my business to do that anyway. If people wish to start a legal action as part of a group effort, then probably VBSI is the best vehicle for this if it can be pursuaded of the merits.