Irish Citizen marrying non-EU (Indonesian) National

[scrudu]

Hi there,

I am an Irish citizen and have returned home to Ireland in August 2005 after the last few years abroad. I met my fiancé while away in Indonesia and before I returned home we submitted a Tourist visa application for him to come to Ireland to meet my family. His visa was valid for 90 days, Oct-Jan 2006.

As his visa was due to run out in Jan, we submitted an application in early Dec 2005 to get this visa extended. While awaiting a decision, we arranged a date to get married and submitted the 3 months notice as required to the Marriage Registry Office here. We got an appointment to meet with the Registrar to "serve notice" in May 2006.

In early Feb our visa application was refused on the grounds that "Type C (tourist) visa holders are not entitled to have their visa's extended". Instead they must return home and reapply for another visa. We appealed this decision but this appeal was also refused on the same grounds. We have now booked a flight for him to leave the country as we do not wish to get to "overstaying / deportation" stage.

The question now is how to get married. Either:
a. he can attempt to return on another C Type tourist visa, then marry, and then try to get his Permanent Residency based on marriage to an Irish spouse issued.
- or-
b. I follow him to Indonesia to marry him, then he applies for a "D-Spouse" visa to return to Ireland

We have been advised by Immigration Helpdesk, that if we marry here while he is on the tourist visa, that it will take 16 months for his visa to be changed from a C-Tourist visa to a Permanent (working) visa. In the meantime he will be a dependent, and will not be permitted to work. I guess this is the Irish Immigration's way of trying to put off people lmarrying Irish citizens for visas. But they don't offer any "Fiancé / de-facto Visas" so they leave us no option of another way to marry here!

Has anyone else gone through this? Will it really take this long? Should I just up and fly to Indo to marry him there? It's not ideal at all as all my family are here and want to be present for the wedding. Also the costs associated with heading over there and leaving work for that period are quite prohibitive!

[archigabe]

Hi Scrudu,
Thanks for posting your opinion on my other post. It's been a while since I put that post up, but since I am now in India, I had my fiancee register with the marriage registrar for the 3 month notice 2 months back, and so I am now in the process of reapplying for the visit visa for my second trip to Ireland. We have an apppointment with the registrar next month during which they will give us a date for us to get married.As you mentioned, she was also told to bring birth certificates, passports, aeroplane boarding passes to prove that I have been in Irleand for atleast 9 days prior to the wedding.
I also queried the Immigrant council of Ireland about the possibilty of my getting married in Ireland and staying there. Here's the text of the email I received from them

"You can get married here. Afterwards, go together to the GNIB. Bring along your marriage cert, proof of income, proof of address and proof that your spouse is French.
They might stamp your passport with stamp 4 which means that they recognise your rights as a spouse of an EU citizen. If they do not and advise you to apply in writing get back to us for more information. The Irish authorities are obliged under the EU treaty rights to process your claim within 6 months. For more information you can turn to the European Commission Office, which is based on Dawson Street"

The immigrant council is on
'2 St Andrew Street, Dublin 2, Ireland
Information service: (01) 674 0200
Administration: (01) 674 0202
Fax: (01) 645 8031
info@immigrantcouncil.ie'
and their website is
http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/

Hope things work out for you and your fiancee to be able to get married in Ireland. We are in the same situation as it would be much easier for my fiancee's friends and family to attend our wedding in Ireland.
God Bless!
Gabriel

[scrudu]

Hi Archigabe,

Thanks for that info! We went into the Immigration Council for advice when applying for our second visa and they were quite helpful.

My fiancee has now returned home and we are seeking another date for when he returns. It is quite hard to plan for as I dont know how long it will take him to get his visa! Fingers crossed it will only take the 6-8 weeks they advise.

It is also good to know that they can only take max 6 months to give the visa, but I do remember seeing something in their documentation saying that other EU nationals were treated differently to Irish Nationals, and that the processing times for spouses of other-EU nationals were quicker.

I guess at this stage we can only try and see what happens. He will return in approx. 2 months and we will marry then. I guess all we can do then is present ourselves to the GNIB and hope for the best!

[archigabe]

Hi Scrudu,
thanks for the info on your applications. We are actually in the same stage, and I am planning on returning to Ireland in 2 months on a visit visa for the marriage. Do you know if it would be a bad idea to mention the purpose of the visit as the marriage ceremony? What reason is your fiancee giving on his visa application? Any ideas would be appreciated!
Thanks!
Gabriel

[scrudu]

Hi there Gabriel,

The advice we received was to be honest in the application so we said that our reason was for us to marry during this time. I dont know whether we will live to regret our honesty though!

Since submitting the visa applicaton we have since been asked to submit a copy of our registration with the Registrar of Civil Marriages to the Consulate.

We just thought that we might end up in another amount of trouble if we said our intended reason for visiting was "tourism", and then we ended up married. Long-term I want it to be clear to Immigration from the start that this was always our intention so they cant later say "well he arrived in on a tourist visa which is not meant to allow for longer stay" ...

Hope this helps!
Margo

[archigabe]

Hi Margo,
My fiancee and I have our appointment at the registrar's office in the Middle of June. My fiancee decided to call them yesterday and find out when the dates for the marriage ceremony was available, and she was told the earliest date would be in October. Since it would be difficult for me to stay in Ireland from June to October for the wedding, I am in a dilemma about getting married in Ireland. Have you heard of anything similar from the office regardimg availability of dates for the wedding? I wonder if you and my fiancee can petition the office to give us an earlier date for the marriage since I and your fiancee will both have trouble staying in Ireland for so long on visit visas.
Please do let me know what your thoughts are in this issue,
Regards,
Gabriel

[scrudu]

Hi Gabriel,

We had exactly the same problem with the Dublin Registry Office, which posed major difficulties for us also. When we had to cancel our initial registration appointment with the office, the next date we were offered was in Aug. We called in in person and begged. I repeatedly called and explained our sistuation, but nothing could be done. They are VERY busy in that registry office and they do over a hundred marriages a week

The only option is to go go a different registry office, preferably a quieter one. You can find a list of them at http://www.groireland.ie/rc-registrars.htm - Kildare and Meath are the closest to Dublin.

If you call them you can ask them if they have dates free. I think you said you had already sent in your "3 months notice" form to the Dublin Registrar. You can get the dub office to forward this on to another registry office, so you dont have to complete this again.

But to fulfill your legal committment, you will still have to live 7 days prior to meeting the Registrar in the Registrars area (i.e. in other county), and then you have to wait another 22 days before the actual marriage. U could stay here and commute to dublin for the 7 days for work?

Info from Registrars Website http://www.groireland.ie/getting_married.htm#section2: "Marriage by Registrars Certificate requires a prior residence of seven days by each of the parties before service of notice, whether they reside in the same Registrar's district or in different districts. One of the parties is required to complete this residence in the Registrar's district in which the marriage is to take place. Marriage by certificate may not take place until the twenty-second day, at the earliest, after entry of notice of marriage."

If you can't wait for an appointment in Dublin, this is really the only solution open to you!

Hope you get a date somehow!
Best of luck
Margo

[zen63]

I am in a similar situation. My wife and I got married in Russia (she is a Russian Citizen - I am British) and received a single entry visa to fly back to Ireland.

We have submitted an EU1 form, and today I was told that this WILL take six months to process. Does anyone know if the system in other EU states is as bad?

This is very annoying as it prevents us from leaving the country and seems to have an impact on her working here (I need to research this more). I understand that before the end of May the GNIB handled these requests directly and the process took a few weeks.

I am furious at the Justice Department for placing these restrictions on us, and effectivly not giving her the rights she is entitled to as the spouse of an EU citizen.

I have lodged a complaint with the head of the the EU treaty rights dept within the Department of Justice. I will also be seeking help from the Irish Obuds(wo)man who agrees this is a crazy wait, the EU petitions system, my local councillor, and local TD.

I'll post back to here if/when I get news,

Good luck to anyone else with these problems

[mik]

Please do . Recently submitted form EU 3 , and was told i would have to wait 6 months . The consolation is that this is only a one-off application as it provides for permanent residency (assuming it is awarded). How long does EU 1 provide residence for ? 1 year ? Will you need to re-apply annually ?
As an aside , i didn't receive my acknowledgement slip immediately so i rang Dept . Justice and was told that they hadn't got our documents . Luckily i sent documents by registered post and quoted the number on the slip . The girl - who was nice , and helpful - came back to me 2/3 minutes later and apologised , saying that they had found our documents .

[zen63]

As I understand it - the EU1 form is for spouses of EU citizens when they initially come to Ireland (or other EU country). It allows you to get the residency permit from the GNIB.

Once the EU1 form is accepted, I understand that you must re-register with the GNIB each year, although from my dealings with them so far - this is not a problem.

[scrudu]

DOJ info on the 2 applications is as follows:

EU 1: this form is to be completed by each family member of a European Union, EEA, or Swiss citizen who is not a national of a Member State and who intends to be resident in the State for more than 3 months

EU 3: this form is to be completed by each family member of a European Union citizen who is not a national of a Member State and who has been resident in the State for more than 5 years

As Mik has also asked, please keep us up to date with your experiences. I just can't believe we may have to wait so long until my husband will be allowed work. It's absolute madness

[JAJ]

I just can't believe we may have to wait so long until my husband will be allowed work. It's absolute madness

Unlikely to change much unless and until the Republic of Ireland electorate demand that the immigration and naturalisation system be properly resourced.

This may well require higher fees, although EEA applications have to be free it's still possible to "encourage" people to use the domestic system instead by offering permanent residence on a shorter timescale for those who do.

[AIBO]

hi all,
But what can you say on this, sounds smth different:
"The European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) Regulations 2006 transpose EU Directive 2004/38/EC into Irish law. The Regulations apply to EU citizens only. They do not apply to citizens of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway or Switzerland." (c) oasis.gov.ie

Text from document listed above:

Registration of family members of Union citizen who are not nationals of Member State

7. (1)(a) A family member of a Union citizen who is not a national of a Member State and who has
been resident in the State for not less than 3 months shall apply to the Minister for a
residence card.
...
Validity of residence card
8. (1) Subject to Regulation 20, the period of validity of a residence card shall be equivalent to the
envisaged period of residence in the State of the Union citizen of whom the recipient of the card is a
family member, or not less than 5 years from the date of issue of the card, whichever is the lesser
period.

Or no chance to argue this http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/vWeb/flJUSQ6PELG9-en/$File/EUFreeMvmt.pdf ?

[scrudu]

Hi AIBO,

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure what your question is.

http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039E882/ ... of2006.pdf is the Irish Law made to bring into effect the European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) Regulations 2006
and http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/ ... eeMvmt.pdf is an Information Note issued by the Department of Justice regarding European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) Regulations 2006

So they should both say the same thing. Basically that, if an EU citizen who was working in another EU country with their family, moves to Ireland and is joined by their non-EEA spouse, after 3 months residence in the State the non-EEA family members should apply via form EU_1 for a residence card which will entitle them to work.

Is your question about the period of validity of the Residence card, or about whether the law applies to citizens of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway or Switzerland?

[AIBO]

Hi scrudu,

Thanks for your interest. I want to discover why the period of validity of the Residence card is 1 year (EU_1 form), while its said to be "not less than 5 years", if the envisaged period of residence in the State of the Union citizen is indefinite and he is already residing (working,living) in Ireland.

And how after 3 months residence in the State the non-EU family member should apply via form EU_1 if visa nationals are granted 3 months visitors visa and in this period obliged to leave the State so not to break visa regulation?

How long does it take to get a stamp 4 in passport and permit to work?

UPD: Sorry, did not notice this topic http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=8925

[scrudu]

I have actually never been told how long the Residence Card is valid for. I had assumed 1 year and you had to apply for an extention at the end of that period. But to be honest, that was a presumption based on the info I read on Student and other visa types.

http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/ ... eeMvmt.pdf does not specify how long the Residence Card is valid for. But as you pointed out the actual Irish Legislation http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039E882/ ... of2006.pdf says

8. (1) Subject to Regulation 20, the period of validity of a residence card shall be equivalent to the
envisaged period of residence in the State of the Union citizen of whom the recipient of the card is a
family member, or not less than 5 years from the date of issue of the card, whichever is the lesser
period.

So I would expect that this is the information you should work off. If you can show that you expect to remain in the State for at least 5 years (indefinitely), then in accordance with Irish Law, you should get up to a 5 year residence permit. That said, the Dept of Justice have surprised me on many an occasion so until someone actually gets issued with a permit based on the EU_1, I guess we dont know for sure. The legislation only came into law in May, so it should be a few months before anyone is actually issued with a residence card under these laws.

Regarding how a person stays longer than the 3 months if they are only issued a 3 month Visitors Visa. Good question

I guess, this is the Dept of Justice's (DOJ) way of not allowing these people apply to stay. Basically in theory a non-EEA spouse should have applied for a "D Spouse Visa", i.e. a visa to join their Irish/EU spouse in Ireland. D Visas can be extended from inside the State by either the GNIB or DOJ.

If the spouse has only been issued with a "C Type Visitors Visa", this cannot be extended and the spouse will have to leave the country at the end of the maximum 3 month period.

Note that neither a D-Spouse nor a C-Visitor visa entitle the bearer to work! To get entitlement to work, the bearer must do the following:

If married to an EEA spouse who is exercising their EU Treaty rights: Apply via form EU_1, wait up to 6 months, get stamp, go to GNIB to get Residence card, start work

If married to an Irish national: apply to DOJ, wait up to 18 months, get stamp, go to GNIB to get Residence card, start work

Regarding how long it takes, as I said, the EU_1 process is new and only came in in May. According to the form it will not take longer than 6 months (EU Law), but considering how long it takes DOJ to process applications, it could be longer.

[dnt]

Hello,
My husband (Dutch citizen) and I (Turkish citizen) have been dealing with a similar problem since we started living together in Ireland this June. I entered the country with a D-spouse visa. At the border, the officer told us to go and register with the Garda in Galway. So we went to register only to find out that we had to show a certificate of insurance along with our marriage cert., and passports. So we had to wait couple more weeks to get insurance and we went back. He said "EU citizens and their spouses used to register at Galway Garda without having their information sent to Dublin and now we have to send this to Dublin because these are the new rules". He wrote down all this information by hand and said that he'd send them to "Dublin" along with that general Garda form you fill out there. I showed him the EU-1 for and he looked blank and noted that he has never seen that before. The lady at the immigration council asked me "didn't you fill out an EU-1 form at Garda?". This guy has not even seen one before. Anyhow, he said it could take 1-5 days. Yeah right!

It has been a month and a half and there's no news from Garda to make an appointment to get the greencard. Meanwhile we found out from immigration council and EU-treaty rights section of Dept. of Just. that we need to send the EU-1 form first before we can register with Garda. One of you guys say that EU-1 form should be completed after residing here for more than 3 months which conflicts with the information given from the above sources. so what's the real deal? when should it be sent?

I guess our question is where did Garda send this information? It is definitely not the GNIB in Dublin because we called them (even though the officer in Galway threatened us that if we did that we'd never see the greencard again) and they said they don't receive information from Galway Garda for that. We called the EU-treaty rights section and they said they haven't received anything either. So why is this so messed up? What are the steps we should take? Can someone break it down for us and everyone in our situation?

Should we go ahead and send the EU-1 form (although I have not been living here for more than 3 months yet) to EU-treaty rights section? However as you all know that means not being able to leave the country for as long as it takes them to process it, and not being able to work. Thanks to Galway Garda we lost 1.5 of our time, that is if we should have applied with the EU-1 form asap. Did anyone get their passports back after applying for the residence card or do they keep the applicant's and their EU spouse's passport for 6 months?

We have no idea what we should do and Galway Garda keeps saying "call back next week". Where do they get the orders from, for instance the fact that we needed to show proof of insurance, and to where do they send the information of couples like us?

If anyone has any input or advice that would be greatly appreciated, for we feel lost in all this unknown and confined that we can not go outside the country. (We were told that I would get in trouble if I left without a re-entry visa).

Thanks a lot and good luck to you all!

D and T

[scrudu]

hmmmm .. i honestly can't help you as I amn't fully clued on on the rules for EEA residents and their spouses. I do empathise with your situation

I was told by a very helpful Garda in Naas Garda Station (Immigration Division) that if I (irish Citizen) was joined by my non-EEA spouse after he had entered the country on a D-Spouse visa, that we could be issued with a GNIB Card. She told me that we would have to bring the following

• 1. Original Marriage Certificate:
  2. Original Passports
  3. Proof of Address (utility bill)
  4. Birth Certificate

We would have to sign an affidavit/form in front of the garda, and have an interview. If the garda (GNIB Rep) was happy with us, they would apply for a GNIB card to be issued which would take 6-10 working days as this had to be issued by GNIB in Dublin. If the Garda was not happy (whatever that means!), we would have to apply through the DOJ normal process which could take 16-18 months.

As my husband is on a C-Type visa we could not go for this option.

[Eire]

From my experience of wandering through immigration officers,citizen infos and DOJ web info the only exit for a Non-Eu to obtain his/her residency is to send out EU-1 form (less than 60months stayed in Ireland or just arrived after 3 months of residing in the State).
I have a gap in my residence in Ireland,but am still residing in. I booked tickets for honeymoon with my EU spouse and explained that in the letter to the Dep.of Justice. I hope that they will issue a temporay residence as I have a former procedure run with them,so I would be able to return and finish the procedure. But at the end I doubt the whole of it,because upthere they don't give a shyte about a number of thousands of applications.
I thought about obtaining second passport from my Embassy in order to exit the country and wait outside untill they resolve the EU-1 form application.
Do you folks think that it could be salvation of the problem once they retain the original passport upon EU-1 form receipt??????

[mik]

Form EU 1 states : 'This form is to be completed by each family member of a European Union , EEA , or Swiss citizen who is not a national of a Member State and who intends to be resident in Ireland for more than three months.'

So , surely you apply within 3 months of arrival .
The form must be sent to EU Treaty Rights section at Dept. Justice , not GNIB .

[AIBO]

hi,

You've Got To Fight For Your Right

Good news for non-EU spouses of EU citizens, read here:
http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/factsheets.htm
and here

Highlighting the fact that some groups have more rights than others to family reunification, Denise Charlton, CEO of the Immigrant Council of Ireland, said ‘While EU citizens working in Ireland have an automatic right to be joined by their non-EU spouse and children, Irish citizens do not enjoy the same rights and are not guaranteed that their application for family reunification will be successful if their spouse is from outside of Europe. This is not acceptable’.

(c)http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/family-matters.htm
and

STAMP 4
Permitted to remain in Ireland until a specified date. The above stamp is given to EEA nationals, spouses of EEA/Irish nationals, parents of Irish citizens (who have been granted permission to remain on that basis), persons granted refugee status under the terms of the 1951 Geneva Convention, former asylum seekers granted humanitarian leave to remain, refugees here under Government decision. This stamp is also issued in respect of the holders of Work Authorisation / Work Visas. No work permit or business permission is required by holders of this stamp

(c) http://www.dit.ie/DIT/admissions/intern ... es2006.doc
I believe non-EU spouse goes to ROI with D(spouse) Visa,

Where to make the application

1) When the family member is residing outside the State:

If there is an Irish Embassy in the country where your family members are they should apply for the visas there. The Irish Embassy will then send the visa application to the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin.

If your family does apply for a visa outside of Ireland, they must make it clear, on the form, that the application is for family reunification*, not simply a tourist visa. Although there is no specific place on the visa application form, you should write “Family Reunification” on the top of the form so that the Department of Foreign Affairs knows to send the application immediately to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

If there is no Irish Embassy in the country where your family members are or if it is not possible for them to go to the Irish Embassy, you can apply in Ireland for your family. The visa application forms are collected from the Visa Office of the Department of Foreign Affairs on Burgh Quay and must also be returned to the same place.

You must fill out a separate visa application form for every member of your family whom you wish to join you in Ireland, except when children are included on a parent’s passport.

2) When the family member is present in the State:

Applications should be directed to the Family Reunification Section, Department of Justice, 13/14 Burgh Quay, Dublin 2.** (c) http://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/advic ... ation.html
* the application for EU spouse (so You dont get C-Visa, w not allows you to change status w/o reentering the State?
** Current Irish Situation
The current legal situation in relation to family reunification rights for Irish and non-EU nationals is unclear and incomplete. While people are allowed to make an application for family reunification, there is no law in Ireland that enshrines the rights of Irish people and non-EU nationals to family reunification. This means that all decisions taken are subject to Ministerial discretion, inconsistencies in decision-making are therefore common and no one knows in advance if their application will be granted or not. And im not sure, them are responsible for handling this applications in regard to EU nationals applications.

next day gets stamp 4 in passport (GNIB Registration Cards (Green Card)),

Anyone from outside the EU who intends to stay in Ireland for more than 3 months must register with the Garda Siochana and obtain a GNIB (Garda National Immigration Bureau) card – commonly known as a “green card”. In order to apply for a green card you must have permission to remain in the country, e.g. as a student, with a work permit, or being married to an Irish or EU citizen. You may be asked for a green card by a Garda in the street or in the airport when you are entering the country (apart from first time entry). Asylum applicants get a temporary residence card, known as a RAC card, from the Refugee Applications Commissioner. For further information contact the Immigration section at Garda... Station.

starts working and applies Residence Permit (EU_1).

And if im wrong, who can explain what does it mean

EU citizens working in Ireland have an automatic right to be joined by their non-EU spouse and children. However, there is no legislation dealing with the rights of non-EU nationals who want their family members living outside the EU to join them here.

that is declared on every and every corner?

[scrudu]

Mik

So , surely you apply within 3 months of arrival .

If a spouse of an Irish/EU national has entered the country on a D-Spouse visa, in theory, they can get the period of this extended for longer than 3 months and can then apply visa the EU_1 for long term permission to Remain and Work Rights.

I do find the wording quite confusing though. The EU_1 says you need to apply "if you wish to stay longer than 3 months", but the EU_1 laws say "you need to be living here 3 months before applying".

Eire: I'm not sure I see how having a 2nd passport would solve your problem. How would you re-enter the country with no visa stamp on your 2nd passport?

AIBO: From my understanding, the GNIB can in theory, extend the stay of a D-Visa holder. This visa type is given to spouses of Irish/EU nationals. They can also give the Stamp 4 which entitles the holder to work. If the GNIB refuse the application, then the person must apply visa EU_1 for their rights.

You asked about the following quote:

EU citizens working in Ireland have an automatic right to be joined by their non-EU spouse and children. However, there is no legislation dealing with the rights of non-EU nationals who want their family members living outside the EU to join them here.

This means that because EU citizens come under EU law (European Directive 2004/38/EC - http://www.justice.ie/80256E010039C5AF/ ... eeMvmt.pdf) , they are entitled to have their spouse join them in any EU country that has ratified this Treaty. But because non-EU citizens, do not benefit from this law, they come directly under Irish law. Irish law does not not guarantee the rights to family reunification to non-EU nationals, therefore any application is considered at the discretion of the Minister and the Departmetn of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

[AIBO]

scrudu
But why is it named "automatic right", if non-EU spouse of EU-national has to follow the same procedure as spouse of non-EU national residing in Ireland to enter the State and join the EU-national spouse (apply for D-Visa (6-8 weeks to proceed) and EU_1 form for residence permit (6 months) with no guarantee against being refused to be granted)? Even im not discussing discrimination of Irish people and their non-EU spouses, the rights of EU-nationals are infringed too.
What is automated anyway?

PS this is a real pain for some of us http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=9232

[scrudu]

AIBO: I got a bit confused reading your first sentence, so hope I have answered your question correctly!

Non-EU spouses of non-EU nationals, do NOT follow the same procedures as non-EU spouses of EU nationals! The EU_1 form is only for non-EU spouses of EU nationals, that have moved to another EU country for work. See below for the different situations. Note that none of these processes are written down anywhere. And I have been reading every piece of information I can get my hands on. It also seems that cases are dealt with on an individual basis, so it's really hard to figure out what the proper process is. As JAJ said in one post, the best way to get information from the Departments is to write to them as I have received conflicting information every time I have telephoned.

non-EU spouse (from visa required country, e.g. Indonesia) to enter Ireland to join Irish spouse
- Apply for a D-Type Spouse visa to enter the country
- On entering, go to GNIB to get Stamp
- GNIB may grant "permission to reside and work" for period of time between one and five years (note: unlikely)
NOTE: This is unlikely to happen for "visa required nationals"
- If refused, apply to Department of Justice (takes 16-18 months approx)

non-EU spouse (not from visa required country, e.g. Hong Kong) to enter Ireland to join Irish spouse
- Apply for a D-Type Spouse visa to enter the country
- On entering, go to GNIB to get Stamp
- GNIB may grant "permission to reside and work" for period of time between one and five years
NOTE: This is more likely to happen for non "visa required nationals"
- If refused, apply to Department of Justice (takes 16-18 months approx)

non-EU spouse (from visa required country, e.g. Indonesia) to enter Ireland to join EU spouse
- Apply for a D-Type Spouse visa to enter the country
- On entering, go to GNIB to get extension of "permission to reside and work"
- GNIB may grant "permission to reside and work" for period of time between one and five years
NOTE: This is less likely to happen for "visa required nationals"
- After 3 months residence, apply via form EU_1 for permission to stay and work (6 months)

non-EU spouse (not from visa required country, e.g. Hong Kong) to enter Ireland to join EU spouse
- Apply for a D-Type Spouse visa to enter the country
- On entering, go to GNIB to get Stamp
- GNIB may grant "permission to reside and work" for period of time between one and five years
NOTE: This is more likely to happen for non "visa required nationals"
- After 3 months residence, apply via form EU_1 for permission to stay and work (6 months)

non-EU spouse to enter Ireland to join non-EU spouse
- Family reunification for non-EU refugees/work permit holders/work auth holders is not a guaranteed right/

The only people that have the "right" to be joined by their dependents are EU nationals, as they come under EU Law which states they should be allowed be joined by their family if they are economically active in another State, and have moved there for work.

On the other hand, all other people (e.g. Irish citizens, non-EU immigrants, refugees etc.) have no "automatic" right to reunificaion with family. Any applications are considered at the discretion of the Minister and his Department. Hence the term "automatic". It means that EU nationals have a recognised legal right to be joined by their family.

To enable to the Dept of Justice to process such applicaions, the EU_1 form was brought out. If the non-EU national succeeds in proving (via EU_1) that they are a legitimate family member of the EU National, they should be "automatically" granted permission to reside and work.

[AIBO]

Thanks scrudu,

The info you gave seems to be absolutly correct and complete, just one more notice to give. As You've mentioned here and i also came to the same conclusion:

The EU_1 form is to allow non-EU nationals who are legally residing in one EU member State, to join their EU spouse in antoher EU State if the EU national is moving to another member State for the purposes of work.

And even in that case according to this

(3)(a) Paragraph (2)(a)(iv) and (2)(b) shall operate to allow only a qualifying family member of a
Union citizen to whom paragraph (2)(a)(iii) applies to remain in the State.

the decision to let remain or not is up to Minister.

Actually im more interested in procedures for non-EU spouse residing in EU memberstate to join EU-national residing in Ireland. And in this case it's very important that officer in GNIB likes persons charisma much and grants "permission to reside and work" asap. Have to a lot or whatever it takes to make a good impression to obtain a Garda officers subjective positive view on my right for residence in Ireland!

Also Please share any info if appears on legal ground for acquiring "permission to reside and work" at GNIB.
Hope to see the real inside instructions for authorities on subject demystified someday , before i come to believe that the truth out there.

[post editted 2006 08 09]