Made an app under Zambrano and got a confusing reply!

[mauritania]

Hey all,

It's been a while since I was here. Thanks everyone for helping with my last query.
Anyway I've been following the Zambrano case and whats become of it since. I'm Irish, my 3month old babys Irish and my partner and father of the baby is Mauritanian.
He is currently here on a Multiple Trip C class Visa. Anyway I wasn't sure about making an app what with him on a C class but every where I rang and inquired said go ahead do it, he has full rights to it!
So anyway we put in the app. It included the answer to the criminal convictions questions (none) Copy of babys birth cert where father is named, copy of fathers bio data page, his letter of application stating that he meets the four conditions. Letter from me detailing all the relationship history, photos etc., letter from babys GP and local TD explaining the vital role he plays in babys life and confirming address. We due to financial circumstances reside with my parents so they sent in a letter saying they were happy to have us here and confirming his role with baby and address again. Umm a couple of friends wrote out support letters too. Only thing missing was babys bio data page but we did clearly state this and stated that we have applied for one just waiting its return and as soon as we have it they'd have it.

Anyway within the same week we get a reply stating that if he wants to enter the country he must do so on foot of a valid visa!!!????
He has one and we stated this...

That we must provide proof of address......
We don't have this. He is not resident here. The householder stated he was here and so did the GP/TD.

Then she goes on to rattle of bits of the ministers press release saying that persons from outside the country are welcome to apply.
If they are then how would they have proof of address??

And to top it all off she says you are clearly not like the Zambrano family!

So anyway I get back in touch with all the organizations they all say send them a letter back another copy of his valid visa and another letter from householder and attach a bill with it.
Went to CIC, really nice guy writes me out a letter quoting from the judgement and press releases and stuff. Tells me there just trying to fob us off.

Anyway they never sent us baby babys birth cert or gave us an app number.
Where are we standing on this, do we still have a valid app?

What do you guys think?

[leonex4t5]

Doesnt sound right... and it feels to me an unlawful act, and statements made i the letter... however i can't really contribute to that, because i'm not familiar with how things work in ireland. so i leave it to other members with relevant opinon.

[PIKKA]

I don't know who qualifies the Zamberano CRITERIA?
They are not considering the People who are in the state(on any type of visa) then how will they consider those who are out of the country.

I personally know at least 3 families who are refused or I must say confused that what would happen next.
Family No 1: Husband is unemployed and doing a Fas Course and they are not giving his wife stamp 4 because he is not working.
Family No 2: Husband is on sick leave because of big surgery and they are not giving his wife stamp 4 because he is not working.
Family No 3: Husband has filed a case against his employer and he is waiting for the decision and because of the nature of the case he cannot work until the decision and they are not giving his wife stamp 4.

(All 3 wives are on stamp 3, Husbands have LTR and have Irish Children)

I don't see anywhere in the Zamberano Ruling that both or one of the parents should be working in fact this Ruling is to allow them to work and live in that country.

I must say they are very expert in creating frustration and disappointing people. But at the end they have to accept their RIGHTS.

[mauritania]

Thanks leonex and PIKKA

Here goes the letter:

Dear .........

I am directed by the Minister of Justice and equality to acknowledge receipt of your correspondence dated 22nd June 2011 in relation to permission to remain in the state on the basis that the Zambrano Judgement applies to you.

The position in relation to your application is as follows. If you wish to enter this state you can only do so on foot of a valid visa. You can apply for such a visa at a relevant Irish embassy or online. (Goes on about documentation for visas, wont bore you all)
It is self evident that you will not be in a position to satisfy the criterion set out a point (vi) of our requirements i.e Proof of applicants address and residence in Ireland. However it is open to you to make such a visa application, which if granted, will allow you to enter the state.

Then she rattles on with the zambrano case and ministers press release and clearly were not the same.

She basically states in paragraph three of her letter that applications will be considered from outside the state and that we should seek an entry visa.
My point is that he is here, ok so its just a tourist visa but he is here and I'm talking about a new baby not a older child so therefore he wouldn't have needed to be in the country beforehand. I got to read some of your posts and I've no idea what there at. Especially taking away there information for weeks on end and then sticking up some quick version that I'm sure will be changed again.
Why is every organization related to immigration under the presumption he can apply and then they send us this. I bet if he was outside the state they would say no sorry your not in Ireland!!
Well I'm gonna fight this every step of the way because they are denying our daughter the right to enjoy her citizenship because she cannot have both parents!

[agniukas]

maybe they didnt realise that he is in the state, as he is probably nor registered by GNIB and thus has no registration number. I would advise you to submit the docs and state that he si currently in the state on c visit visa which is valid until (the date). and include the copy of the c visit visa page.

[PIKKA]

Thanks leonex and PIKKA
I bet if he was outside the state they would say no sorry your not in Ireland!!
Well I'm gonna fight this every step of the way because they are denying our daughter the right to enjoy her citizenship because she cannot have both parents!

I am 100% agree with you on this note, they are going to say you the same words.

maybe they didnt realise that he is in the state, as he is probably nor registered by GNIB and thus has no registration number. I would advise you to submit the docs and state that he si currently in the state on c visit visa which is valid until (the date). and include the copy of the c visit visa page.

I would advice you the same thing clear his current status and then see what they say.

[mauritania]

Going to be speaking to a solicitor on Tuesday through the immigration council. Will hold off sending them anything until then.

[riseen]

The ruling to Zambranor- Case C-34/09 - sets out that citizenship of the Union requires a Member State to allow third country nationals who are parents of a child who is a national of that Member State to reside and work there, where refusal to do so would deprive that child of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights attaching to the status of citizen of the Union.

[fatty patty]

I suggest to send the copy of the page of your partner's passport which got stamped at the airport when he was allowed in. As from the letter its becoming clear that the case officer is thinking he is illegally here. As far as the proof of address is concerned its not a big deal sign up for a bill pay phone or sky tv or buy TV license for the house you live in both of your name that is proof of address enough. It doesn't have to be a bank statement.

There is alot of theories flying around regarding Zambrano, but one thing is a fact which is alot of states will try and challenge to the very end is to grant status to all tom dick and harrys who are the parent of an Irish child, at present its pick and choose which won't last for long IMHO, it will be challenged in the court soon by a disgruntled customer and state will alter its policy again. Zambrano is simply to grant legal allowed to work without permit status in the child's citizenry state to his and her active non EU parents wether they are legal/illegal in the state or legal/illegal outside the state.

[mauritania]

Thanks Patty, I got a chance to read this yesterday and tried getting a bill pay phone. I was lucky I got a really decent guy who said he'd do it but as soon as the bill came through that I needed to open a bank acc and give him a bank statement because they too need proof of address. I think he done it because it was coming out of my account.

While in the shop another girl came in exact same problem, no proof of address and unfortunatly for her she got the wrong man.

Anyway bill is coming on the 15th so will have proof then. Gonna spend the rest of the making photocopies on my application to have more spares and trying to get as much reliable info as possible on zambrano

[doc44]

I suggest to send the copy of the page of your partner's passport which got stamped at the airport when he was allowed in. As from the letter its becoming clear that the case officer is thinking he is illegally here. As far as the proof of address is concerned its not a big deal sign up for a bill pay phone or sky tv or buy TV license for the house you live in both of your name that is proof of address enough. It doesn't have to be a bank statement.

There is alot of theories flying around regarding Zambrano, but one thing is a fact which is alot of states will try and challenge to the very end is to grant status to all tom dick and harrys who are the parent of an Irish child, at present its pick and choose which won't last for long IMHO, it will be challenged in the court soon by a disgruntled customer and state will alter its policy again. Zambrano is simply to grant legal allowed to work without permit status in the child's citizenry state to his and her active non EU
parents wether they are legal/illegal in the state or legal/illegal outside the state.

I fully agree they are issuing stamp 4 to only those who are resident in the state with their irish resident child orparents who were deported. They are not counting C visa as a resident visa. It is temp visa so means you are not an irish resident.

I am legally living in Northern Ireland and my daughter is Irish national. Still not eligible because not living in the state. I am told apply for a C visa will not help and there is no visa covering zambrano case. Only way is go to state on a work permit or green card then after at least 6 months of residency in the state come for stamp 4 under zambrano case.

Does not make sense. Anyway may be there will be another change in policy specially to favour northern Ireland because why you give irish nationality to northern Irish child and afterwards say that he is not living in ireland.

[walrusgumble]

The ruling to Zambranor- Case C-34/09 - sets out that citizenship of the Union requires a Member State to allow third country nationals who are parents of a child who is a national of that Member State to reside and work there, where refusal to do so would deprive that child of the genuine enjoyment of the substance of the rights attaching to the status of citizen of the Union.

How can one say that the child is genuinely deprived of their genuine enjoyment of the substance of their rights is they have never resided in Ireland or country of birth for an appreciable amount of time?

It's not a general right. The right was even diluted abit as seen in McCarthy [2011]

It smacks that the parents are more concerned about their ability to get settled and work, than the right of their child

[mauritania]

[/quote]
How can one say that the child is genuinely deprived of their genuine enjoyment of the substance of their rights is they have never resided in Ireland or country of birth for an appreciable amount of time?

It's not a general right. The right was even diluted abit as seen in McCarthy [2011]



It smacks that the parents are more concerned about their ability to get settled and work, than the right of their child[/quote]

It's a baby in this case so no she hasn't lived anywhere for an appreciable amount of time but thats beside the point. The point is she was born here to one Irish Born parent and deserves to have her father with her. Very right that the parents are more concerned about the ability to get settled and find work SO that the child may have a better quality of life than what she would have if we lived in another country.

[mauritania]

DOC44 that surely can't be correct as the reply I was issued with was to go get a visa and enter the state. Once your hear and apply they can't make you leave. Thats the advice I got from every solicitor!

[doc44]

DOC44 that surely can't be correct as the reply I was issued with was to go get a visa and enter the state. Once your hear and apply they can't make you leave. Thats the advice I got from every solicitor!

Thanks Mauritania,

Another solicitor told me the same. When I called Irish embassy in London, I was told that I am not eligible to move to Ireland unless I acquire a work permit. I was told there is no visa category allowing me to move to Ireland with a D type visa on the basis of my relationship with the Irish child.
Zambrano case cover deported residents not the one living in Northern Ireland.

Regards

[doc44]

DOC44 that surely can't be correct as the reply I was issued with was to go get a visa and enter the state. Once your hear and apply they can't make you leave. Thats the advice I got from every solicitor!

Thanks Mauritania,

So it seems that I can apply for D type visa on the basis of my relationship with Irish baby and then can apply for the stamp 4 once I am in the state? Am i right?