Ireland and UK CTA: no visa required to enter the other?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I used to think the CTA was primarily about UK/Irish citizens moving about without passports. But now it seems that if you have leave to enter one of the countries, you can then use it to visit the other without an additional visa.

My understanding used to be in line with what the wikipedia article says:

Other nationalities

While the Common Travel Area has, for most of its history, involved an open or relatively open border, this has never meant that someone who legally entered one part of the area was automatically legally entitled to enter another part. The Area, unlike the Schengen Agreement, provides no mechanism for a common visa system. The United Kingdom and Ireland operate entirely separate visa systems with distinct, though similar, entry requirements.[citation needed] A United Kingdom visa or work permit will not allow a traveller entry to Ireland, nor vice-versa. The Channel Islands and the Isle of Man allow entry to holders of United Kingdom visas (with some exceptions).

But then I saw a small paragraph in a BBC news report about a Brazilian who was killed in the UK after entered from Ireland:

The court heard how as a person entering Britain from Ireland, he would have had an automatic three-month leave to remain which at the earliest would have run out on 23 July, the day after he was killed.

A recent UKBA FOI answer confirms the previous quote:

Travelling from Ireland would make matters slightly more complicated in that there is no routine immigration control between there and the UK, due to what is called the common travel area (CTA). The CTA operates on the principle that once a person has been granted leave to enter in one part of it, they will not normally require leave to enter another part of it whilst that leave is still valid and provided that they do not leave it. Consequently, so long as you are [not] subject to one of the exceptions to this general principle (excluded, previously deported etc.), you would not need to [do] anything further in order to travel [to the UK] from [Ireland] for a visit.

Interestingly UKBA page on the CTA is very general but says something different:

However, there are exceptions to this principle - for example, a visa national will need to have a visa if they enter the UK from another part of the CTA. You can find more information about visa nationals under 'More information' below.

Does anyone understand how exactly this works? Does it only apply to (e.g.) Brazilians (who do not require UK visa), or does it also apply to a Russian citizen who has entered Ireland legally and who does not have a separate UK visa?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

More detail from a UKBA report on the CTA and Northern Ireland Sea Ports

Section 2: Background

The Common Travel Area (CTA)

2.1 ...

2.2 In respect of non-CTA/non-EEA nationals there is a general presumption that a person granted leave to enter as a visitor in one part of the CTA will not normally need permission to enter another part while that permission remains valid and provided that they do not leave the CTA at any point. However, if the non-CTA/non-EEA national was admitted on another basis to the first CTA member state, they may need permission to move between states and may also require a visa before travelling.

...

[simmo]

My understanding was as yours - i.e. that the CTA is an immigration arrangement that is (primarily) only aimed at facilitating travel of UK and Irish citizens. However, from what I have read and in my experience the whole thing is a bit of a minefield...

Travelling to RoI from UK - at least by air - engenders full passport checks as if you had arrived from anywhere else. One imagines therefore that anyone who is a visa national for the ROI would struggle to pass without the requisite visa. This transcript from the Irish Parliament - http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie ... 60027.html - shows the case of a Ghanaian Lady who was denied entry into Ireland without a short-stay visa despite apparently being legally resident in the UK. Ireland has however spoken recently of a 'Visa Waiver' program with quite strict qualifying criteria to allow visa nationals holding UK visas and visiting the RoI from the UK to visit Ireland for short visits without the need for a separate visa. This is currently still in a pilot phase. See http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP11000005

Coming into the UK it is even more of a minefield as there are no immigration checks travelling RoI - UK. This flowchart from the UKBA - http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary - seems to suggest that Visa Nationals coming into the UK without a valid UK visa do require Leave to Enter. I'm not sure how this would be enforced as an IO would not be seen upon arrival into the UK. I do recall however that a few years ago coming home from Dublin there being a couple of plain-clothed officials (not ostensibly UKBA officers, but who knows...) pulling across people for further checks (these tended to be non-white people in my observation - anyone white and with a British/Irish accent passed straight through, but that's another story...). This document from the UKBA - http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary - may also interest you and suggests in section 1.2 that a visa national without visa falls to be refused entry, although it does beg the question how this would be enforced.

However, I am by no means an expert on these matters - this is just my two-pence, so to speak...

[mulderpf]

My understanding is that CTA is mainly for UK and Irish nationals to easily travel between the two countries. Except for visitors to Ireland who are exempt of visas if they entered via the UK first, there are no other exemptions in terms of visas. The only benefit that non-UK and non-Irish nationals get, is the more relaxed border controls between the two countries at times.

My experience though is that arriving in Dublin by air, you don't get the benefit of no border controls, the only way to do that is to enter via ferry or road. However, from Ireland to the UK it seems more relaxed (you'd actually think it would be the other way around!)

[Ben]

The confusion arises from a lack of legislation. There is no legal definition of the Common Travel Area and it's rules and regulations.

The CTA was originally termed hundreds of years ago, when virtually everybody who lived within the CTA was either British or Irish. No thought was given to what future implications would be, when non-nationals would live in and visit the CTA.

As has been mentioned in a previous post, the status quo is that the UK authorities treat every passenger arriving in the UK from Ireland as though they have arrived domestically, and so not subject to immigration control. The Irish authorities, on the other hand, treat every passenger as if they have arrived internationally (notwithstanding the recent pilot scheme).

So while the CTA provides that "British and Irish citizens may move throughout the CTA without the need to carry a passport", in practice it's implementation is curious, with the two sovereign states acting very differently. You could say that one is over-liberal, applying CTA provisions to all passengers regardless of nationality, while the other state is over-restrictive, ignoring CTA provisions almost completely.

There has been talk in the past of an overhaul of the CTA agreement. One suggestion was that Great Britain would require passports from every arriving passenger from the island of Ireland. This is extremely unlikely to happen though, as it would mean that passports would be required for domestic travel within the UK. Another idea was for a common Schengen-style visa system for the CTA.

[ca.funke]

...he would have had an automatic three-month leave to remain...

This whole CTA-thing is a joke. It´s too complex for anyone to reasonably understand it. Maybe lawyers and specialists can, but immigration law needs to be applied everyday, and this should be possible without ambiguity.

It´s certainly too complex for the borderguards, let alone travellers who don´t seriously get into the details...



In the mentioned case, I see the reason for "automatic three-month leave to remain" in the following:

• The guy was Brazilian, and as such not visa required in the UK.
  • Would be a different story if he was visa required.
• He then enters the UK from Ireland, hence he doesn´t see any immigration official in the UK, hence he gets "automatic three-month leave to remain".

No idea what would happen with any visa-required national...? He´d have to make sure that he is in possession of a visa, and then it´s not stamped??

I just don´t know?

[mulderpf]

It's not that complicated.

Entering the UK via Ireland, the same rules apply as if you saw an IO and they let you in (e.g. if you are a visa national, you need a visa; if you don't need a visa, you are granted 90 days entry).

The only exception is that people who would normally require a visa for Ireland is exempt if they hold a visit visa to the UK and have visited the UK already.

Easy...

(Unless I have it completely wrong).

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Easy...

That does not match the contents of the quotes above... Not so easy for me. And hence this thread!

[simmo]

As ca.funke points out - the whole thing is a joke and a bit of a mess.

It's not that complicated.

Entering the UK via Ireland, the same rules apply as if you saw an IO and they let you in (e.g. if you are a visa national, you need a visa; if you don't need a visa, you are granted 90 days entry).

True - as a visa national you do require Leave to Enter - however it becomes a bit of a vicious circle as to how you are meant to obtain this. Would a visa national therefore entering RoI without a UK visa technically be an illegal entrant, therefore. Maybe one of the (ex-) IOs on the board can advise?

The only exception is that people who would normally require a visa for Ireland is exempt if they hold a visit visa to the UK and have visited the UK already.

Are you sure? I thought the new visa waiver program - as per my above link - only provided for visa-free entry for certain nationalities within a clearly-defined qualifying framework.

Easy...

I'm not so sure...

Of course, the whole thing gets even more messy when you consider that you can generally cross the land border unchecked in both directions...

[Mr Rusty]

@ simmo:-
"True - as a visa national you do require Leave to Enter - however it becomes a bit of a vicious circle as to how you are meant to obtain this. Would a visa national therefore entering RoI without a UK visa technically be an illegal entrant, therefore. Maybe one of the (ex-) IOs on the board can advise?"

The visa itself constitues "Leave to Enter", and is merely validated (or cancelled) by an IO. Therefore as long as a visa national holds a valid visa, he/she is within the law.

A non-visa national (such as the Brazilian originally quoted), as long as she/she was legally present in Ireland, automatically has 3 months leave to enter as a visitor on entry to the UK.

The advice in either case would be for the traveller to retain ticket stubs etc to prove their method and date of entry (although for a visa holder this is not really vital).

I recall a case of a Brazilian whom I removed as an overstayer/illegal worker; several months later a colleague in Liverpool reported that during an exercise monitoring the traffic from Dublin at Holyhead, which they did on occasion, probably still do, they encountered this chap. He admitted his previous removal, but as he had, for reasons unclear, been granted entry as a visitor by the Irish, he therefore under the Act automatically had three months as a visitor to the UK. (I later heard he had resumed illegal working but was killed in a car accident). - the essential point is that his leave to enter was automatic, he didn't require the IO at Holyhead to stamp his passport.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The visa itself constitues "Leave to Enter", and is merely validated (or cancelled) by an IO. Therefore as long as a visa national holds a valid visa, he/she is within the law.

So is your understanding that the following is correct:

(1) A Russian citizen has an Irish visa and was in Ireland legally. They would however only be able to travel through the CTA to the UK if they had a separate UK visa.

(2) A Russian citizen is in Ireland legally with their German wife. They would be able to travel through the CTA to the UK because they do not require leave to remain (as family member of an EU citizen).

[mulderpf]

True - as a visa national you do require Leave to Enter - however it becomes a bit of a vicious circle as to how you are meant to obtain this. Would a visa national therefore entering RoI without a UK visa technically be an illegal entrant, therefore. Maybe one of the (ex-) IOs on the board can advise?

They should apply for their visa as they would normally do. The only difference is that there will be no entry stamp against that visa.

Of course, the whole thing gets even more messy when you consider that you can generally cross the land border unchecked in both directions...

The fact that there are no checks doesn't change any of the rules, the rules remain in place, they might just not be enforced as strictly. If you are a visa national and you are found in the UK without a visa, you are here illegally, regardless of your method of entry. The fact that there wasn't border control where you entered, doesn't change this.

[Ben]

So is your understanding that the following is correct:

(1) A Russian citizen has an Irish visa and was in Ireland legally. They would however only be able to travel through the CTA to the UK if they had a separate UK visa.

(2) A Russian citizen is in Ireland legally with their German wife. They would be able to travel through the CTA to the UK because they do not require leave to remain (as family member of an EU citizen).

My understand is that both points are correct.

[Ben]

Common Travel Area

15. The United Kingdom, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and the Republic of Ireland collectively form a common travel area. A person who has been examined for the purpose of immigration control at the point at which he entered the area does not normally require leave to enter any other part of it. However certain persons subject to the Immigration (Control of Entry through the Republic of Ireland) Order 1972 (as amended) who enter the United Kingdom through the Republic of Ireland do require leave to enter. This includes:

(i) those who merely passed through the Republic of Ireland;

(ii) persons requiring visas;

(iii) persons who entered the Republic of Ireland unlawfully;

(iv) persons who are subject to directions given by the Secretary of State for their exclusion from the United Kingdom on the ground that their exclusion is conducive to the public good;

(v) persons who entered the Republic from the United Kingdom and Islands after entering there unlawfully or overstaying their leave.

[Mr Rusty]

The visa itself constitues "Leave to Enter", and is merely validated (or cancelled) by an IO. Therefore as long as a visa national holds a valid visa, he/she is within the law.

So is your understanding that the following is correct:

(1) A Russian citizen has an Irish visa and was in Ireland legally. They would however only be able to travel through the CTA to the UK if they had a separate UK visa.

(2) A Russian citizen is in Ireland legally with their German wife. They would be able to travel through the CTA to the UK because they do not require leave to remain (as family member of an EU citizen).

Yes, that is my understanding. Indeed, in case (2), by virtue of the 'Metock' judgement, even if the Russian was in Ireland illegally, as long as the marriage was genuine and he was travelling with his wife, he could not be deprived of his rights as an EEA Family Member.

[docteurbenway]

The visa itself constitues "Leave to Enter", and is merely validated (or cancelled) by an IO. Therefore as long as a visa national holds a valid visa, he/she is within the law.

So is your understanding that the following is correct:

(1) A Russian citizen has an Irish visa and was in Ireland legally. They would however only be able to travel through the CTA to the UK if they had a separate UK visa.

(2) A Russian citizen is in Ireland legally with their German wife. They would be able to travel through the CTA to the UK because they do not require leave to remain (as family member of an EU citizen).

Yes, that is my understanding. Indeed, in case (2), by virtue of the 'Metock' judgement, even if the Russian was in Ireland illegally, as long as the marriage was genuine and he was travelling with his wife, he could not be deprived of his rights as an EEA Family Member.

Hello Mr Rusty,

as far as i understand from your quote "I recall a case of a Brazilian whom I removed.." that you are either a police or immigration officer am i correct? That is great that you mentioned EEA Family members, i have always been wondering what would happen if:

- a Russian wife of a lets say an Italian citizen living in France and her husband want to travel from Ireland to the UK (CTA zone)?

Now the wife holds an EEA Family Member residents card issued by France by virtue of Directive/2004/38/EC and she and her husband fly together from Paris to Dublin. We know Ireland has recently started applying the directive correctly http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=78980
so the couple would have no trouble entering Ireland.

Now you agree that based on the directive the Russian wife now in Ireland (inside the CTA) has a full right to enter the UK with her husband as well.
To quote you: "They would be able to travel through the CTA to the UK because they do not require leave to remain (as family member of an EU citizen)".

So if they cross the border into Northern Ireland de jure they are well within legal limits. Yet de facto they might be stopped by an IO (very rare random checks do occur despite the border being open) and/or the wife might be deported, since the UK interprets the directive wrongly, in this case forcing all EEA Family Members who are UK visa nationals to apply for and have an EEA Family Permit(which is a mystery wrapped in an enigma, a visa like document which is at times stricter than a visa, but conveniently not called a visa) before entering the UK.

This is despite the fact that they hold an EEA Family residents card which substitutes the need to apply for or have any visa type document for travel within the whole of the EU which overlaps with the CTA.

So if you are indeed an IO i would like to hear from your experience if you ever faced this kind of situation? What did you do? I would also love to hear your opinion about the issue in general.

We now know that the EC has opened a formal investigation against the UK on 9 counts of violation of Directive 2004/38/EC, see:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... ight=funke

Would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks in advance.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

the wife [who has a Residence Card issued by another EU member state] might be deported, since the UK interprets the directive wrongly

No way.

The wife can be deported only in a very limited number of circumstances. Public security, public policy, and public health. Not having her passport with her, or not having the right kind of visa is not one of those.

While I understand your frustration that the UK has used a very strict narrow interpretation surrounding Residence Cards, even the UK is very aware of the impact of the MRAX decision and has incorporated it into UK procedures. You can see extracts in http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/

[docteurbenway]

the wife [who has a Residence Card issued by another EU member state] might be deported, since the UK interprets the directive wrongly

No way.

The wife can be deported only in a very limited number of circumstances. Public security, public policy, and public health. Not having her passport with her, or not having the right kind of visa is not one of those.

While I understand your frustration that the UK has used a very strict narrow interpretation surrounding Residence Cards, even the UK is very aware of the impact of the MRAX decision and has incorporated it into UK procedures. You can see extracts in http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... to-travel/

Hi Directive,

okay maybe not deported per se, but prevented from entering the UK or detained or just given a hard time.

This would be an even worse hard time if the couple in question flew from Paris to London (together and holding the EEA Family residents card) only to continue by car to the Republic of Ireland and then take a plane back to Paris from Dublin.

The wife would most probably be denied entry at the airport without the EEA Family Permit(UK).

I am reading a whole lot of relatively contradictory statements about this.

On one hand a member of the forum that goes by username "alekos" said they give you a hard time if you have and EEA Family card by a state other than UK and traveling with EU husband/wife and then let you, but that only happens when you are at the port of entry in the UK, lets say at an airport or ferry from Ireland to Britain (like the case with the Russian-Italian husband and wife mentioned in my previous post ).

Another member of the forum (forgot the username, sorry), a UK citizen living in France with Tunisian husband and a French EEA Family card.

They tried to travel to the UK, were given a hard time at check-in in France, managed to talk their way to the door of the plane, at which point the husband was grabbed by security and taken back to the terminal, since he did not have an EEA Family Permit (the one that the UK likes). The airline staff then called the UKBA office at the airport destination in the UK and the IOs in the UK said not to let him on the plane and that they will not make any exceptions Directive 2004/38/EC or otherwise.

So it looks like a game of nerves that costs money, time and humiliation and there is only a 50% chance it will work.

That is why i was asking Mr Rusty (who i think could possibly be an IO), to share his views, or experiences on the matter.

The thing is this situation is complicated by the fact that CTA and Directive 2004/38/EC collide when dealing with such cases. I do understand the IOs, i mean a normal person can only memorize a limited quantity of millions of pages of laws and regulations, but it is the little man (the proverbial Russian wife and Italian husband) who pay the price.

Cheers.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

This is getting off topic for this thread. I am happy to discuss this with you offline if you want. Send me a PM.

Back to the CTA!

[docteurbenway]

This is getting off topic for this thread. I am happy to discuss this with you offline if you want. Send me a PM.

Back to the CTA!

Hi,

i just edited the my post above. And this is about the CTA.

To keep it simple, the point i am trying to make is:

CTA and Directive 2004/38/EC, friends or enemies? How does the CTA affect non-EEA family members of EEA citizens traveling within it?

[Kitty]

As Directive2004/38 confirmed upthread, the UK Border Agency should allow entry to the UK for the non-EEA family member of an EEA national, even where there is no Family Permit (and as far as I'm aware they do, even if they need a bit of prompting).

Difficulties with travel may be encountered with carriers (who rightly or wrongly fear being punished for bringing illegal entrants to the UK). It may be possible for them to be better informed, but in the end they are private companies and can refuse boarding if they like.

Usual advice is to travel by ferry/tunnel if you're a non-EEA family member going without a Family Permit from continental Europe to the UK.

There was a discussion in another thread with Rolfus, about the possibility of an extended family member without a Family Permit entering the CTA via Ireland (as Ireland now admits persons with Residence Cards from other member states). I think the conclusion was that the CTA would not assist because a visa national still requires "extensive examonation" of their circumstances before they have a right of entry to the UK, and does not have the same right of entry that an immediate family member does.

I suppose the CTA might be of assistance if you were a family member with an RC from another member state, but to whom the UKBA had refused to issue a Family Permit (and you therefore feared that relying on MRAX would not assist you entering the UK directly). But that's a pretty specific set of circumstances!

[jms_uk]

I went through proper immigration control on arrival to Dublin port from Holyhead. Got a nice chat and a lovely green stamp.

I find this visa waiver a bit of a joke, in respect that it applies to visitors but not to long term residents...

My experience though is that arriving in Dublin by air, you don't get the benefit of no border controls, the only way to do that is to enter via ferry or road.