Problem with proof of exercising treaty rights

[Polindia]

Hi there

I feel incredibly confused and dreading applying as I am not sure whether I can prove exercising my treaty rights. I am Polish, I have register with WRS in Feb 2006 so it's been 5 years this year. I got married to Indian citizen in April 2006 so we just been married 5 years this April. He has Family Member Residence Stamp which expires October this year. I was unemployed since January as my contract was not extended and I was 25 weeks pregnant then. I haven't looked for a job as my husband salary was enough to cover our expenses and I didn't think at the time it will become an issue. We do not claim any benefits. I've been enrolled onto full time course in September 2009 and studied for a year but when I found out I was pregnant I was depressed at the time, I left University but not officially and still enrolled. My course officially finished this September but I wasn't attending for last year. I only worked from Sep 2010 till Jan 2011. My problem is.. how can we apply now for PR for him and me and our child born in April? Shall I register as a job seeker? Shall my husband employ me ? As he is self employed. Or shall I become self employed prior to application to increase our chances? Is maternity any exemption from exercising treaty rights? I dont have a job to go back to as my contract ended so I am not on maternity leave but could prove by registering as a job seeker that I intend to go back to work, what do you think would be the best option for us? Please, help.
Also, with regards to comprehensive sickness insurance. Will it be sufficient if we buy one now? Does it need to cover all family or just me as a EEA national who was/is studying.. and our dependant child?
Just to add I've undertaken some jobs while studying but they dont cover the whole period of studies.. so not sure if I should state them in my application. What do you think would be the best route?
Ps. Can he apply on his own and I would apply afterwards as I am going away for a month... he cant wait as his visa expires in just over 30 days.. and i have holidays booked. Just wondering what would happen to the documents.. as they would be already submitted with his application so could I ask to join them?
Many thanks in advance. And good luck with your applications.

Sep 2005 - Aug 2009 worker (registered with WRS in Feb 2006)
Sep 2009 - Sep 2011 student BUT
working Oct 2009 - March 2010
June 2010
Sep 2010-Jan 2011
Fell pregnant July 2010, gave birth in April 2011 didn't leave the country for that.

[Polindia]

Anyone, please??

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

First off you need to relax a bit. You do a lot of worrying in your email and do not lay out detail in a way that is easy to understand.

Couple of things:
(1) Having children is not a problem.
(2) Your husband has a Residence Card that is expiring. Not is not a big deal. He can renew it if he wants, or leave it unrenewed. It is pretty optional, especially if he is self employed.

Can you please fill in this timeline:

April 2006 married
Sep 2005 - Aug 2009 worker (registered with WRS in Feb 2006)
Sep 2009 - Sep 2011 student and
Oct 2009 - March 2010 working
June 2010 ???????
Sep 2010-Jan 2011 worked
Fell pregnant July 2010, gave birth in April 2011 didn't leave the country for that.

Were all the periods you worked real and substantial work for which you were paid?

[Polindia]

thanks.
he has a Family Member Residence Stamp which is expiring. Im assuming he won't be able to work if he doesn't renew it or does not get PR?
I don't have PR myself - if it matters.
Sep 2005 - arrived to UK
Feb 2006 - registered with WRS
Sep 2005- Aug 2009 worked full time
April 2006 got married
Sep 2009 - Sep 2011 - full time student plus casual/part time work in a meantime (between October 2009 and March 2010, June and July 2010)
Sep 2010 - Jan 2011 - working part time, contract expired
Jan 2011 - till date unemployed as was pregnant and gave birth in April 2011

Yes, it was always paid work. For first three years full time then mainly part time.
Sorry for the trouble!

Few questions are:
- Am I right in thinking it's not enough to prove excersing treaty rights or is it enough I prove exercising them between Feb 2006 and Feb 2011 which is 5 years? Do I just omit current period then?
- If I cannot omit current situation what would be best solution - register as a job seeker or get into self employment or be employed by my husband?
- I haven't had a comprehensive sick insurance as a student, what can I do about it? Is it enough that I worked for some period of time as a student plus purchasing one now?
- Is it ok for me to apply for EEA3 approximately one month after my husbands EEA4 application as I am away? What would happen to the documents? Would I just ask for joining the applications together..?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

he has a Family Member Residence Stamp which is expiring. Im assuming he won't be able to work if he doesn't renew it or does not get PR?

He is self employed. That means that nobody will ask him for his proof that he is allowed to work in the UK. Correct? So I do not see why he "will not be able to work" even after his current RC expires... Please correct me if I am wrong. Be clear: Legally the UK does not require that he have either a RC or PR card.

Does he need to prove to anybody particular that he can work in the UK? Does he need to travel soon?

If not, I would personally tend to no apply for anything for either of you until you come back from your trip.

I don't have PR myself - if it matters.

I think you may have PR already. (It is not something you need to apply for, but you can apply for a card that confirms the PR if you want).

Sep 2005 - arrived to UK
Feb 2006 - registered with WRS
Sep 2005- Aug 2009 worked full time
April 2006 got married
Sep 2009 - Sep 2011 - full time student plus casual/part time work in a meantime (between October 2009 and March 2010, June and July 2010)
Sep 2010 - Jan 2011 - working part time, contract expired
Jan 2011 - till date unemployed as was pregnant and gave birth in April 2011

Yes, it was always paid work. For first three years full time then mainly part time.

I think the only issue UKBA may have is whether you had CSI (Comprehensive Sickness Insurance) in the period you were a student and not working.

Few questions are:
- Am I right in thinking it's not enough to prove excersing treaty rights or is it enough I prove exercising them between Feb 2006 and Feb 2011 which is 5 years? Do I just omit current period then?
- If I cannot omit current situation what would be best solution - register as a job seeker or get into self employment or be employed by my husband?
- I haven't had a comprehensive sick insurance as a student, what can I do about it? Is it enough that I worked for some period of time as a student plus purchasing one now?
- Is it ok for me to apply for EEA3 approximately one month after my husbands EEA4 application as I am away? What would happen to the documents? Would I just ask for joining the applications together..?

As long as you exercised treaty rights for some period of 5 years and generally met the qualifications, then you automatically got PR on day (5 years plus one day). You will loose that PR only if you leave the UK for more than 2 years.

[Polindia]

Thank you so much for your response. I thought that because he is Indian national and requires visa and his stamp expires on 09/10/11 we would need to apply before that date and if we do this afterwards it will be looked upon unfavourably as he would overstay in my understanding. But I am ignorant when it comes to immigration law so please forgive me if I ask about things which are obvious for you!
I have not had a CSI at all, we are thinking of buying one now just to be clear. I am not sure if it's needed just for me or for the whole family?
I hope it doesn't become an issue as the law shouldn't work backwards in my opinion...

We want to apply for PR to make for ourselves easier way into getting citizenship. Am I wrong in thinking it will be easier if we both have certified PR or it does not matter? The law changes "every day" so we want to be on a safe side with all the paperwork/legal status in UK.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/eucit ... ts-family/

Do you need to apply?

You do not need to obtain documents confirming your right of residence in the UK if you are a family member of an EEA national.

However, you may be inconvenienced if you do not obtain this confirmation, as:

- you may have difficulty proving that you are lawfully resident in the UK;
- if you leave the UK, you will usually need to obtain an EEA family permit before returning here, in order to guarantee readmission as the family member of a qualified EEA national; and
- you may find it difficult to obtain or change employment.

[Polindia]

yeah, i read that before. i think it would be too inconvenient NOT to apply..

big thank you for you help and reassurance though!

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I just quoted UKBA so it is really clear to you that your husband can relax. Definitely eventually get a RC, but it is optional.

[toni34]

polindia,your husband need to take out csi for you,ur baby and imself,then you can claim to be self sufficient tru ur husband income

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

polindia,your husband need to take out csi for you,ur baby and imself,then you can claim to be self sufficient tru ur husband income

If the EU citizen already has PR, then CSI is not relevant for either the EU citizen or for their non-EU family.

[Polindia]

Directive, is it relevant if PR is not certified? Meaning: I obtained it after 5 years and 1 day - back in Feb - but didn't get the paperwork - does the CSI requirement is invalid in that case too?

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The certification is intended as a thing of convenience for the applicant. It is a way for them to prove to the outside world that they have PR, namely that they have a right of permanent residence. It is easier than them carrying all the different bits of proof around with them when they apply for a job or want to travel.

So once you have PR you are set.

But... If there is any question about whether you have PR it is better to apply for it.

You may think you have it, but UKBA takes a strict interpretation of the rules and they may say you do not have it. Imagine they "correctly" say you do not have PR today because, for instance, you did not have CSI for a 6 month period 4 years ago. But you will qualify for PR in one years time from now if you have maintain CSI for the next year.

But this is not an issue if the EU citizen has been working continuously for the last 5 years. No CSI required. Clear work history. EU and non-EU both have PR. Might as well apply for the PR card, but you can safely assume they have it.

[Polindia]

Thanks for detailed response. I think I better pack my small carry case and head to Dover ..
We will apply. I guess I've been hoping for some miracle.. and making my application process easier!

[Einarr]

Dear Directive/2004/38/EC,

as you wrote:

polindia,your husband need to take out csi for you,ur baby and imself,then you can claim to be self sufficient tru ur husband income

If the EU citizen already has PR, then CSI is not relevant for either the EU citizen or for their non-EU family.

I am curious where this information comes from? It is exactly my case and I want to know do I need to have CSI as I am a student and already have PR (permit of residence).

Regards.

[86ti]

It's simple: a permanent resident does not need to exercising treaty rights anymore. The only requirement to keep PR are that absences must not exceed 2 years (and the usual caveat of convictions of serious crimes, etc.). See 15.(2). The ECIS should mention that as well.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

So as a PR you can be working or not working or be a student or not or be self sufficient or be quite dependent on the state. Just like a British citizen! And as long as you do not leave the UK for more than 2 years (in one go) you retain that PR.

[Jambo]

IIt is exactly my case and I want to know do I need to have CSI as I am a student and already have PR (permit of residence).
Regards.

PR is not permit of residence but it is Permanent Residence. If you have not lived in the UK for 5 years exercising treaty rights, then you don't have a PR and you will need CSI if you are a student.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Good spot.

Specifically PR is Permanent Residence for the family member of an EU citizen