ILR REFUSED UNDER EEA 4 APPLICATION

fouzi · Post by **fouzi** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:05 am

HI,

Please help, i have received a refusal letter for ILR,

I AM IRISH

WIFE IS ALGERIAN ( NON EEA)

WE HAVE 2 CHILDREN BOTH BRITISH CITIZENS AGES 4 (HE GOES TO SCHOOL), AND 18 MONTHS OLD

MY WIFE APLIED FOR ILR UNDER EEA 4 APPLICATION, BUT WAS REFUSED AND UKBA TOLD HER TO START GETTING READY TO RETURN TO HER COUNTRY THEY HAVE KEPT HER PASSPORT AND REFUSED TO SEND IT BACK TO HER.
THEY REFUSED HER ILR ON THE BASIS THAT I AM NOT WORKING. MADE REDUNDANT IN 2008. PLEASE HELP AS WE DONT KNOW WHAT DO TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM AND WHAT ARE MY OPTIONS, SOLUTIONS ETC... MANY THANKS [/u]

toni34 · Post by **toni34** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:49 am

tell them to do their worst.they can not remove her simple.i will be brief and will give you 2 reasons.
1.if you r redundant ,you can claim self-sufficient if she is in any economical venture.you will need a comprehensive health insurance for this.
2. they will be breaching your right to family.
There is no precedence whereby a family member of an eu member state was deported simply because the eu member is out of work or sick.
The worst that can happen is that she will restart her eea2 again,maybe the eu member will need to requalify again either tru work,schooling, self-sufficiency etc

Kitty · Post by **Kitty** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:18 am

How long have you and your wife been living in the UK together?

What are you living on at the moment? Is your wife working?

Are you sure that what you have is a refusal letter and not a request for further informaton? What does the letter say?

fouzi · Post by **fouzi** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:06 am

hi kitty,

i have been in the uk for 20 years, we got married me and my wife in december 2005 and came to the uk /entered in january 2006, i have been made redundant in 2008, to date (after nearly 20 years of working in the uk), she just got a part time job about 3 weeks ago, i am looking after the kids at home. i am not claiming benefit out of principle, so we are living on child tax credit and child benefit and her little part time job income and we are happy and grateful with that. your advice will help a lot please. thanking you all in advance,,,,,cheers

fouzi · Post by **fouzi** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:18 am

hi kitty just to answer all your questions.

How long have you and your wife been living in the UK togethether
since january 2006 to date we are still married

What are you living on at the moment? Is your wife working?

my wife working i am looking after the kids, we are living on child benefit, child tax credit, and part time job income (My wife part time job)

Are you sure that what you have is a refusal letter and not a request for further informaton? What does the letter say? yes it is a refusal letter and they are holding her passport, ukba refusing to send her her passport as thy are getting her case ready for deportation. many thanks

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:24 am

fouzi wrote:i have been in the uk for 20 years, we got married me and my wife in december 2005 and came to the uk /entered in january 2006, i have been made redundant in 2008, to date (after nearly 20 years of working in the uk)

So you are Irish and have been in the UK for 20 years. Over exactly what periods have you been working between 2000 and 2008?

You likely have permanent residence under the EU rules. It may also be that you have a similar status under other non-EU rules for UK/Ireland (though I do not know that area well).

What exactly did the refusal letter from UKBA say?

It is also worth noting that your wife is applying for a PERMANENT RESIDENCE CARD (using EEA4). This is similar to, but different from ILR.

Post by **Obie** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:24 am

Fouzi i am quite surprised that she was refused. If you have been in the UK for over 20 years then you would have secured permanent residence. In such circumstance, there are no formalities attached to your residence. You should explain this to them or get a lawyer to it.

Don't get worried or stressed, they will not deport her, just get the appeals form sorted and it will all be alright once a judge get to see it.

I wish you all the best for the future.

Kitty · Post by **Kitty** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:26 am

If you are an Irish national and you were living and working in the UK for at least 5 years (and you say 20, so that seems to be the case), then in all likelihood you have already acquired a right of permanent residence (PR) yourself.

If you have PR now, then your wife is entitled to a Residence Card on that basis. You don't need to be a owrker or self-sufficient or anything else, other than being able to show you have PR.

If you acquired PR before you were made redundant, then your wife herself probably has PR as well.

The question is proving it. Can you get together evidence of a continuous period before 2008 when you were working? P60s, wage slips, bank statements, a letter from your employer?

Edited: beaten to it by Obie! fouzi, what did the refusal letter actually say? And have you always lived in the UK or were you born in Ireland and moved here?

Post by **John** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:32 am

If you are an Irish national and you were living and working in the UK for at least 5 years (and you say 20, so that seems to be the case), then in all likelihood you have already acquired a right of permanent residence (PR) yourself.

In fact the UK accepts that, as regards Irish Citizens living in the UK, that they have PR status as soon as they start living here, without any need to live here for five years.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:40 am

John wrote:In fact the UK accepts that, as regards Irish Citizens living in the UK, that they have PR status as soon as they start living here, without any need to live here for five years.

Does that mean an Irish citizen can apply immediately on arrival in the UK for confirmation of their EU-law Permanent Residence?

Or do Irish citizens have a automatic right to a different type of permanent residence?

Post by **John** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:57 am

I suspect that it is a different type of PR. After all there is definitely a special arrangement for Irish Citizens living in the UK, for example they have the right to vote in all elections, which does not apply to other EU Citizens, who can't vote in UK Parliamentary elections.

fouzi · Post by **fouzi** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:04 pm

hi all, i am very gratefull to you all and your posts, just to answer some of your question regarding my PR as irish citizen:

i have sent the ukba my p60s, up until 2008.

I SENT them letter from my previous/last employer stating that i have worked for the company since 2000. until 2008 my last job.

I SENT THE EEA4 APPLICATION
I SENT MY PR LETTER WITH THE HOME OFFICE LETTER STATING MY PERMANENT RESIDENCE.

I SENT ALL BANK ACCOUNTS, COUNCILL LETTERS, RED BOOKS FOR MY 2 KIDS, BILLS, DOCTOR LETTERS, HOSPITAL LETTERS, CAR INSURANCE, BILLS, MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE, ETC,,,,EVERYTHING THEY HAVE ASKED FOR AND MORE FOR THE PAST 5 YEARS TO PROVE WE ARE MARRIED AND LIVING TOGETHER AS HUSBAND AND WIFE, BOTH MY TWO KIDS BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND PASSPORTS ( BOTH MY KIDS HAVE BRITISH CITIZENSHIP) BORN IN THE UK.

AND WITH ALL THE ABOVE THE REFUSAL LETTER SAID BECAUSE I WAS MARRIED IN DECEMBER 2005, MY WIFE ENTERED /CAME TO UK JANUARY 2006, I WAS MADE REDUNDANT 2008 SO I DID NOT EXERCICE MY TREATY RIGHTS FOR FULL 5 YEARS( I DID NOT COMPLETE MY 5 YEARS TREATY RIGHTS UNDER EUROPEAN LAW AS MARRIED COUPLE SO WE ARE REFUSING ILR TO YOUR WIFE AND THEY HAVE ADDED SHE NEEDS TO START MAKING ARRANGEMENTS TO LEAVE THE UK, THEY HAVE KEPT HER PASSPORT AS WELL.

Post by **Obie** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:21 pm

I believe there is strong force in John's argument, a Irish citizens have a special status in UK. But i believe the OP has already secured a PR . The other downside of using thatavenue is the UKBA will argue that such privilege are under national law and has no place in the EEA regulations. Although the recent advocate general opinion has stated that lawful residence under national law is good enough for PR under community law. This is another area that could be left for another day. OP could also apply for British Passport for his children, which they are entitled to and fight under Zanbrano too. Although i see no reason why it could be argued that Zambrano does not apply to other EU Citizens

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:55 pm

fouzi wrote:I SENT them letter from my previous/last employer stating that i have worked for the company since 2000. until 2008 my last job.

I SENT THE EEA4 APPLICATION
I SENT MY PR LETTER WITH THE HOME OFFICE LETTER STATING MY PERMANENT RESIDENCE.

I SENT ALL BANK ACCOUNTS, COUNCILL LETTERS, RED BOOKS FOR MY 2 KIDS, BILLS, DOCTOR LETTERS, HOSPITAL LETTERS, CAR INSURANCE, BILLS, MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE, ETC,,,,EVERYTHING THEY HAVE ASKED FOR AND MORE FOR THE PAST 5 YEARS TO PROVE WE ARE MARRIED AND LIVING TOGETHER AS HUSBAND AND WIFE, BOTH MY TWO KIDS BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND PASSPORTS ( BOTH MY KIDS HAVE BRITISH CITIZENSHIP) BORN IN THE UK.

AND WITH ALL THE ABOVE THE REFUSAL LETTER SAID BECAUSE I WAS MARRIED IN DECEMBER 2005, MY WIFE ENTERED /CAME TO UK JANUARY 2006, I WAS MADE REDUNDANT 2008 SO I DID NOT EXERCICE MY TREATY RIGHTS FOR FULL 5 YEARS( I DID NOT COMPLETE MY 5 YEARS TREATY RIGHTS UNDER EUROPEAN LAW AS MARRIED COUPLE SO WE ARE REFUSING ILR TO YOUR WIFE AND THEY HAVE ADDED SHE NEEDS TO START MAKING ARRANGEMENTS TO LEAVE THE UK, THEY HAVE KEPT HER PASSPORT AS WELL.

You sent a lot of stuff. Too much actually!

When was your PR LETTER issued? Did you refer to it anywhere in the application? It could be they just overlooked it.

fouzi · Post by **fouzi** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:33 pm

You sent a lot of stuff. Too much actually!

When was your PR LETTER issued? Did you refer to it anywhere in the application? It could be they just overlooked it.

HI,

I APPLIED FOR MY PR ON 24/02/2005 AND MY PR LETTER WAS FINALLY ISSUED 25/10/2005, STATING THAT I HAVE BEEN GRANTED PERMANENT RESIDENCE IN THE UK.

PLEASE COMMENT

CHEERS

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:01 pm

What exactly does the UKBA issued PR letter say? Does it refer to you being a European citizen?

fouzi · Post by **fouzi** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:04 pm

URGENT URGENT URGENT

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME IF THERE IS A SUCH LAW OR LINK ON UKBA SITE STATING IF THE EEA PERSON HAS A PR (PERMANENT RESIDENCE) AUTOMATICALLY HIS NON EEA SPOUSE WILL BE GRANTED PERMANENT RESIDENCE (PR) OR INDEFINITE LEAVE TO REMAIN (ILR) ETC...

I NEED TO PREPARE FOR THE APPEAL AS I ONLY HAVE 10 DAYS TO DO SO. SO I NEED SOMETHING TO BASE ON UPON SENDING IT TO THE APPEAL DEAPRTEMENT.

ALL SUGGESTION WELCOME. WHAT TO DO AND NOT DO. CHEERS
THANKING YOU ALL , FOUZI

fouzi · Post by **fouzi** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:09 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:What exactly does the UKBA issued PR letter say? Does it refer to you being a European citizen?

HI, THANKS FOR REPLYING BACK TO ME .

THE LETTER SAYS:
RE: MR FOUZI (SURNAME) IRELAND, 24TH JULY (YEAR OF BIRTH)

I AM WRITING TO SAY THAT YOU HAVE BEEN GRANTED PERMANENT RESIDENCE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, IF YOU HAVE A VALID PASSPORT YOU MAY ASK US TO STAMP IT ETC,,,,,,.....CHEERS

Post by **Obie** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:52 pm

REGULATIONS 17(1) provides for the issuing of residence card to the family members of a qualified person or someone with a Right of permanent residence.

Regulations 15 provides that if you have lived in the UK for 5 years in accordance with the regulations,.then you qualify for Permanent residence as an EEA national or a family member.

As you have not lived outside the UK for more than 2 years since your PR was issued, you are classified as a person who has been residing in the UK in accordance with the Regulations. Therefore your spouse should qualify for PR.

You wife has to simply fill in the appeals form and state that the decision breaches her rights under the community treaties and secondary law and also her right under the Human rights acts.

fouzi · Post by **fouzi** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:59 pm

Obie wrote:REGULATIONS 17(1) provides for the issuing of residence card to the family members of a qualified person or someone with a Right of permanent residence.

Regulations 15 provides that if you have lived in the UK for 5 years in accordance with the regulations,.then you qualify for Permanent residence as an EEA national or a family member.

As you have not lived outside the UK for more than 2 years since your PR was issued, you are classified as a person who has been residing in the UK in accordance with the Regulations. Therefore your spouse should qualify for PR.

You wife has to simply fill in the appeals form and state that the decision breaches her rights under the community treaties and secondary law and also her right under the Human rights acts.

OBIE, THANKS FOR YOUR ADVICE, FOUZI, DO YOU THINK IT IS A GOOD IDES TO DO THE APPEAL MYSELF WITHOUT A LAWYER OR SHOULD I GO FOR ONE? CHEERS

Post by **Obie** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:12 pm

FOUZI it all depends on how strong you fell, and how eloquently you can express these facts to a judge.They are claiming that since you secured PR before you got married then your wife cannot secure PR, except she can show you have been exercising treaty rights. I believe this is totally wrong.

Get the appeal form sent before the deadline and you can work on preparing you case, which is not required right now. You have about 4-6 weeks before you will appear in court. Don't worry about the letter that states she has to go. It is a standard letter.

Try and apply for your children's British Passports if you have not already done so, as this will give you an extra area of argument.

fouzi · Post by **fouzi** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:32 pm

Obie wrote:FOUZI it all depends on how strong you fell, and how eloquently you can express these facts to a judge.They are claiming that since you secured PR before you got married then your wife cannot secure PR, except she can show you have been exercising treaty rights. I believe this is totally wrong.

Get the appeal form sent before the deadline and you can work on preparing you case, which is not required right now. You have about 4-6 weeks before you will appear in court. Don't worry about the letter that states she has to go. It is a standard letter.

Try and apply for your children's British Passports if you have not already done so, as this will give you an extra area of argument.

OK I LL GET READY FOR THE APPEAL, AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR ADVICE AND SUPPORT, VERY MUCH APPRECIATED. I WILL LET YOU KNOW OF THE OUTCOME. CHEERS TO ALL OF YOU ON HERE, ANY MORE SUGGESTIONS ARE VERY WELCOME. THANK YOU ALLLLLLL,,,,FOUZI

fouzi · Post by **fouzi** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:07 pm

Kitty wrote:If you are an Irish national and you were living and working in the UK for at least 5 years (and you say 20, so that seems to be the case), then in all likelihood you have already acquired a right of permanent residence (PR) yourself.

If you have PR now, then your wife is entitled to a Residence Card on that basis. You don't need to be a owrker or self-sufficient or anything else, other than being able to show you have PR.

If you acquired PR before you were made redundant, then your wife herself probably has PR as well.

The question is proving it. Can you get together evidence of a continuous period before 2008 when you were working? P60s, wage slips, bank statements, a letter from your employer?

Edited: beaten to it by Obie! fouzi, what did the refusal letter actually say? And have you always lived in the UK or were you born in Ireland and moved here?

hi kitty, i am sorry i just want to ask few questions if i may?
first one is is there some sort of link or law for me to look into and perhaps print so i can get it ready to support my appeal regarding: if i have my pr as an irish citizen so therefore my wife will be automatically entitled to pr as well, or anything else you might think of which might be of help to to support our appeal case? thank you very much for all your comments and help, fouzi

Post by **John** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:00 pm

fouzi, please stop shouting! On the internet posting in block capitals is equivalent to shouting, and on this board such posts are liable to be deleted without warning.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:03 pm

Obie, the kids both have British passports already. And they were submitted with the application.

fouzi wrote:BOTH MY TWO KIDS BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND PASSPORTS ( BOTH MY KIDS HAVE BRITISH CITIZENSHIP) BORN IN THE UK.

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