Non eea Divorce from eea spouse

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:20 pm

Hello everyone,
Recently I told you about my trip to portugal with my wife. As we came back we are considering divorce. I know it is not a divorce forum but i'll appreciate your help.
Wife wants to divorce in egyptian embassy and I know it is not valid. My question is if we divorce in the egyptian embassy can We still file for divorce in british court or is it a criminal offence to divorce the same person more than once?

Summary of my case:
Married august 2008, wife stayed till october and I filed for family permit in november.
Came to the uk in feb 2009
Have been together in the same house since that date till now. Wife issued with pr card using form eea3 in feb 2011. She has been working for the same employer for the last 6 years till moment.
She is not going to cooperate for my retention and it is almost impossible to get help from her as it looks like being a tough divorce. She said she will go back to france which I doubt but still a possibility.

My questions are:
1- can we divorce twice, once in the egyptian embassy and once in a british court?
2- for retention, does a photocopy of her pr card and letter from permanent migration dept in the ukba will suffice in addition to my payslips and evidence we lived together 2.5 years?
3- we lived together in egypt 3 months but undocumented between august and october 2008, does the marriage still meet the 3 year plus rule or do you have to live in the same house 3 years?

Sorry for being long and unorganised but i'm in a bad state of mind

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:15 pm

Divorce is adversarial in the UK, one spouse files the other defends. In the EU whoever gets their case into court first has effective choice of court (England, Scotland, France, etc). Don't know about an Egyptian embassy being able to divorce or the implications of an Egyptian court. Generally, if you are resident in the UK, you can divorce in the UK.

If you let her initiate the proceedings, you will be stuck with the court she picks, eg France if she moved back there. Ditto if it were the UK.

Your EU spouse status effectively stops on the initiation of proceedings, but you could retain your rights of residence if you qualify (I think you know all this already).

If either you or her starts the proceedings, you will need to get a lawyer. Make sure they understand the immigration implications and talk about a strategy for getting the required documents from her. This could be made part of your settlement agreement, particularly if it is negotiated.

I have no idea how France works.

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:38 am

Divorce in the egyptian embassy is not recognised in the uk. The only recognised type of divorce as I believe is either from a british court or if we go back to egypt and do it together.
I would like to know if we divorce in the embassy which is recognised in egypt only and then file for divorce in a uk court, is it wrong or is it ok?
If we agree on a solicitor she won't cooperate regarding retention, as she said she will inform home office of our divorce/ separation/ marital breakdown.
On a side note, she said she will change address and job. She won't give me her new address as she said and she will be with the same employer but different department in a new address which I believe I won't know. Is it relevant to divorce or not

Punjab · Post by **Punjab** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:33 pm

could I ask both of your countries of origin and religion please?

also are you thinking tio be PR here?

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:02 pm

I'm egyptian wife is french. I want to retain my rights cuz I have different things here now but not sure about pr

Azhaar · Post by **Azhaar** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:31 am

Hi

can i please ask you how did u get married first of all.. was a marriage in egypt or was in the uk according the UK law..
divorce through the embassy is not accepted if both of you are residing in the uk, you can still apply for a uk divorce through the family court.

retention of rights:
have you been married for at least 3 years?
have lived in the uk at least 1 year?
if so you can retain your right as long as you can provide proof of your eea sponser employment until the day of the divorce..
if she was a selfemployed person then all the bank statements plus tax return from HM revenue and all documents prooviing that.

you have to be working at the time you apply for the retention the right of residence.. and then you continue working if you want to apply for PR in a completion of 5 years residing and working in the uk..

...

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:41 pm

@azhar:
I got married in egypt, ministry of justice. I know that divorce in the embassy is not recognised but I want to know can I divorce in the court PLUS uk court?
We married in august 2008 till now. She has pr card and still working for the same employer for more than 6 years. She is not willing to help or give me any paper that belong to her.
I'm working since 2009 till now

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:19 pm

What are your objectives with respect to the divorce? Do you wish to start proceedings or wait for her? Why are you interested in an embassy divorce (even if that's possible)? Normally, a divorce case can only proceed in the place where one of the spouses resides.

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:59 pm

The problem is that SHE wants embassy divorce only. She listens to friends and things like that. She said to me the egyptian embassy should remove her name from my passport (meaning family permit where her name is written) which is not practical.
We are not in good terms to discuss and talk and this really exhausts me.
I'm really confused and don't know what to do

Post by **Greenie** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:54 pm

Guerro wrote:Divorce in the egyptian embassy is not recognised in the uk. The only recognised type of divorce as I believe is either from a british court or if we go back to egypt and do it together.
I would like to know if we divorce in the embassy which is recognised in egypt only and then file for divorce in a uk court, is it wrong or is it ok?

there is nothing 'wrong' with you divorcing in the embassy and then divorcing in the UK court. In fact given that the embassy divorce will not be considered legal in the UK you would need to get divorced in the UK courts if that is where you are both residing. You will not be considered to be 'divorcing twice' Think of it like when a religious ceremony takes place which is not recognised as a lawful marriage in the UK, you would then get married in the registry office - this does not mean you are maried twice.

Azhaar · Post by **Azhaar** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:54 pm

What about getting the UK divorce first then u can take it to egyptian embassy just to legalise it.. so she can have the embassy divorce and uk divorce..

Is she not gonna accept signing the divorce papers??

I understand how it feels but sometimes you have to leave to time just make sure she is always here in the uk and working.

it happend to me as well.. I got divorced from ex in an islamic way cus he refused to proceed with the uk law.. i waited all this time but now he is ok with proceeding with uk divorce, and he is more than happy to provide me all the documents believe me ppl sometimes change with time.

Post by **Obie** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:04 pm

I know the concept of "Proxy Marriage" does exist, but i am not sure if the concept can be used by analogy to divorce.

I suppose if such divorce is acceptable in the country it was conducted, then it will be recognised in the UK, provided either party does not contest to it.

mcovet · Post by **mcovet** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:29 pm

Greenie wrote:
Guerro wrote:Divorce in the egyptian embassy is not recognised in the uk. The only recognised type of divorce as I believe is either from a british court or if we go back to egypt and do it together.
I would like to know if we divorce in the embassy which is recognised in egypt only and then file for divorce in a uk court, is it wrong or is it ok?

there is nothing 'wrong' with you divorcing in the embassy and then divorcing in the UK court. In fact given that the embassy divorce will not be considered legal in the UK you would need to get divorced in the UK courts if that is where you are both residing. You will not be considered to be 'divorcing twice' Think of it like when a religious ceremony takes place which is not recognised as a lawful marriage in the UK, you would then get married in the registry office - this does not mean you are maried twice.

As far as I know, the UK courts will recognise any divorce conducted legally abroad. The bit you are referring to is that in order to divorce in the UK the couple must satisfy certain conditions, but it is not up to the UK courts to hold a divorce illegal if it was conducted legally abroad. I presume for the divorce in Egypt to be legal there are certain conditions as well. Either way, if Egypt recognises an embassy divorce, it will and should be recognised in the UK, I am just doubting if the embassy can divorce a couple who are/were not resident in Egypt, need to check the applicable law of Egypt.

Post by **Greenie** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:00 pm

mcovet wrote:
Greenie wrote:
Guerro wrote:Divorce in the egyptian embassy is not recognised in the uk. The only recognised type of divorce as I believe is either from a british court or if we go back to egypt and do it together.
I would like to know if we divorce in the embassy which is recognised in egypt only and then file for divorce in a uk court, is it wrong or is it ok?

there is nothing 'wrong' with you divorcing in the embassy and then divorcing in the UK court. In fact given that the embassy divorce will not be considered legal in the UK you would need to get divorced in the UK courts if that is where you are both residing. You will not be considered to be 'divorcing twice' Think of it like when a religious ceremony takes place which is not recognised as a lawful marriage in the UK, you would then get married in the registry office - this does not mean you are maried twice.

As far as I know, the UK courts will recognise any divorce conducted legally abroad. The bit you are referring to is that in order to divorce in the UK the couple must satisfy certain conditions, but it is not up to the UK courts to hold a divorce illegal if it was conducted legally abroad. I presume for the divorce in Egypt to be legal there are certain conditions as well. Either way, if Egypt recognises an embassy divorce, it will and should be recognised in the UK, I am just doubting if the embassy can divorce a couple who are/were not resident in Egypt, need to check the applicable law of Egypt.

I was not referring to the fact that the UK couple must satisfy certain conditions to get divorced in the UK courts.

I understood from the OP's posts that his wife wants to get divorced in the Egyptian embassy in the UK. I was saying that I did not think that this would be recognised as a lawful divorce in the UK.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:48 pm

I can't comment on individual's circumstances, but either your wife is not really serious about divorce or is badly advised. Take control of your own destiny either divorce her or wait for her to do it for you.

Better again, reconcile! Best of luck and get some proper legal advice.

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:53 am

Many thanks everyone for your replies which I really appreciate.
As Azhar said, I think it is best to leave wife sometime and then talk again when both parties are calmer, you never know a reconciliation can happen and an agreement can be reached.
Talking about divorce, divorce can be done in the egyptian embassy which is legal in egypt but not recognised by the uk. On ukba website it is stated... that neither marriage nor divorce in a uk based embassy is valid in the uk. If you are living in the uk you should follow uk rules.
Divorce abroad is recognised by the uk if it is legally recognised by the country where it took place and one party of the marriage was a national of that country. So, if I go back to egypt to divorce her it will be done and recognised by egypt and uk ( as far as I understand ukba manual). The problem is that I can't go to egypt at the moment due to the instability and family issues.
Obie highlighted a good point regarding proxy divorce which is logical to the recognition of proxy marriage but ukba doesn't mention it at all.
The only problem I may have with uk divorce is that wife may ( and I think she will) change address and I won't be able to track her, how can I divorce without having her address?
Secondly, I can see little cooperation in divorce and there will be none for retention of rights, she is pr holder, does proof of cohabitation plus photocopy of her pr and evidence that I work will be sufficient for retention or not? I just have her national insurance number and name and address of her employer (but it is a big organisations with lots of depts everywhere)
Appreciate your answers

Azhaar · Post by **Azhaar** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:41 pm

Hi
have you tried call the ukba, because they may just tell you to send a embassy divorce and it might be accepted..

thats what I have done.. because i got married abroad and my marriage certificate was accepted there and here as well so my divorce was according to islamic law although i got it legalised here in the uk and sent it back home to get it legalised by the ministry of justice.. so this is what i sent to the home office because they just said send us anything to show that u r divorced. but because things changed since so i have filed a divorce to the court and im still waiting but my ex he is ok now and he signed everything so im still waiting for the dicri nisi and then few weeks for dicri absloute..

lets see what the experts say..

and i will be updating u with my case because i guess its kind of similar to urs.

thanks

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:01 pm

Azhaar wrote:Hi
have you tried call the ukba, because they may just tell you to send a embassy divorce and it might be accepted..

thats what I have done.. because i got married abroad and my marriage certificate was accepted there and here as well so my divorce was according to islamic law although i got it legalised here in the uk and sent it back home to get it legalised by the ministry of justice.. so this is what i sent to the home office because they just said send us anything to show that u r divorced. but because things changed since so i have filed a divorce to the court and im still waiting but my ex he is ok now and he signed everything so im still waiting for the dicri nisi and then few weeks for dicri absloute..

lets see what the experts say..

and i will be updating u with my case because i guess its kind of similar to urs.

thanks

May I ask you where did you divorce and how did you legalise it here in the uk?

I found this on ukba website which can be beneficial:

DIVORCE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM
The only valid way of divorcing in the United Kingdom and Islands is by obtaining on application a decree from a civil court. A decree nisi is the court's decision to grant a divorce provided that nothing comes to light which may alter that decision within the period of time specified on the certificate. If nothing comes to light, a decree absolute is then issued. A decree absolute is the only acceptable evidence of divorce.
As a foreign embassy, high commission, consulate or other diplomatic premises are for legal purposes regarded as being inside the United Kingdom, a divorce obtained from any such premises in the United Kingdom is not valid here.

An overseas divorce will be recognised if:
* it is obtained by means of judicial or other proceedings in any country outside the United Kingdom; and
* it is valid in that country; and
* either spouse was habitually resident in, or was a national of that country

my own humble understanding suggests that proxy divorce in egypt would be sufficient as it meets all the required criteria. However, ukba can challenge that there is a procedural fault, which is the non existence of both parties. a proxy can act on my behalf but my wife would have no proxy on her behalf. it is still legal and valid in egypt to make what can be called "abscence divorce" where one party is not present but i dont know if the uk will accept that.
any ideas?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:31 pm

Considering try to make the marriage work, or at least give yourselves some time to think it over. Marriage is difficult at times, and then at other times it is a lot easier.

There does not sound like much point getting divorced at the Egyptian embassy. If you are going to get divorced, then do it clearly and simply in a UK court and not in a way that will allow the situation to continue to be ambiguous and confusing.

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:25 pm

@ directive/2004/38/ec:
We will wait for few weeks so she knows how we can divorce. If she realises that a uk court divorce is the best option, that's fine. If not, We will do the egyptian embassy divorce (because it is finalised in one week and thats why she wants it) and then i'll go ahead with the uk court divorce.
Regarding retention, are all the above mentioned documents sufficient to retain my rights, or will ukba refuse my application on the basis I can't prove that ex wife was exercising treaty rights till the day of decree absolute even though she is a pr holder?
Appreciate your help

Post by **Obie** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:48 pm

I very much doubt that an embassy divorce will be recognised in the UK, when you are both domiciled in the UK. The UK will simply not recognise it, because it was carried out in UK territory.

Have a read through the links below.

I believe you will need an Egyptian court proceedings for it to be recognised as you are both in the UK, and as you are an Egyptian, it will be recognised in the UK, provided the divorce is valid under Egyptian Law.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

Your case is shaping up to be so complex in regards, to your divorce, that you may need a lawyer to make representations on your behalf, and possibly argue it in court.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:26 am

If she is a PR holder, then she does not need to be working.

The best thing is to keep photocopies of her passport, and proof that she has PR. Even better is to be able to submit the originals with the application.

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:12 am

@ obie:
I will leave my wife for few weeks or a month and talk to her again regarding what type of divorce we can make. If an agreement can not be reached, i'll file for divorce in a uk court, hopefully she doesn't defend.
@ directive 2004/38/ec:
I just have photocopies of passport and pr. Is it sufficient or not? She is not willing to help or provide me with originals

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:14 am

You have two separate but inter-twined issues, the divorce and your immigration status. Having copies of PR and passport is good.

I suggest you get some legal advice and make sure your lawyer understands the immigration implications.

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:46 am

I have one final question: is the letter from permanent migration team accompanying the pr card can be considered as a proof she is pr holder or only the blue card should be submitted?
Appreciate your help everyone

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Non eea Divorce from eea spouse

Non eea Divorce from eea spouse