Non eea Divorce from eea spouse

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:08 pm

Guerro wrote:I have one final question: is the letter from permanent migration team accompanying the pr card can be considered as a proof she is pr holder or only the blue card should be submitted?
Appreciate your help everyone

Every little bit helps. It is not "proof" in itself, but UKBA also has the details on their systems, and this is motivation for them to look it up!

ribena · Post by **ribena** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:53 am

Hi

I am not able to answer everything else as I am in the same predicament myself!

From my divorce experience:
I have my Decree Absolute from a UK court a few months ago, and I was told that I need do dissolve my marriage at my country embassy or go back home and do it. If I don't, then I am still 'married' on paper for my home country! So yea, got married once but twice divorced! Mad I tell you.

Good luck

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:58 am

ribena wrote:I have my Decree Absolute from a UK court a few months ago, and I was told that I need do dissolve my marriage at my country embassy or go back home and do it. If I don't, then I am still 'married' on paper for my home country!

Who told you this? And what is your home country?

There are certainly some countries where you register your marriage if you are a citizen and living abroad. Colombia and France and maybe Germany come to mind. I am not sure what you need to do if you divorce. And even the UK allows British citizens who have married abroad to "deposit" their Marriage Certificate with the GRO. Again not clear what happens if you subsequently divorce.

Post by **Obie** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:56 am

ribena wrote:Hi

I am not able to answer everything else as I am in the same predicament myself!

From my divorce experience:
I have my Decree Absolute from a UK court a few months ago, and I was told that I need do dissolve my marriage at my country embassy or go back home and do it. If I don't, then I am still 'married' on paper for my home country! So yea, got married once but twice divorced! Mad I tell you.

Good luck

Certain rules applies under under Islamic Talaq (divorce). A civil divorce may not be be sufficient to dissolve such marriage, as there are cases were the female spouse has to return Jewellery, and family members of the spouse may need to be consulted. However under international law, a civil divorce recognised in one memberstate, should suffice for any nation in the world.

Azhaar · Post by **Azhaar** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:23 pm

Hi.. just let her know that the embassy divorce is not recognised and thats for her right.. which means that she cant re-marry if she wants to do so..

another thing she will still be married so its pointless..

court divorce is better try again she might accept that.

Azhaar · Post by **Azhaar** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:27 pm

i have my divorced finalised back home as well i sent my divorce here in the uk to my country and they stamped on it and now im in my country divorced as well because i had to give up my dowry to my ex.. it was Â£10000 cash money to paid in case of divorce so i said i dont want it and as well i sent all the recipts showing that i gave all my gold to my ex. as i had to leave everything behind when i flee from his house due to the domestic violance..

divorced was issued and finalised in yemen as Khula..

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:14 pm

I'll wait a month to let wife settle down and then tell her about uk court divorce followed by registering it in the egyptian embassy.

mcovet · Post by **mcovet** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:52 pm

just wondering. Do YOU want a divorce? My suggestion is that since you need to apply to retain the right to reside after divorce, you demand that before you agree to the divorce, she makes a certified copy of her PR card with the passport, worker registration scheme, p60s and other documents necessary to make your life easier when applying.

Truthfully, it is not possible to divorce in the UK as easily if one of the spouses objects/hasn't committed a so called "foul". See this page for an explanation http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentc ... /DG_193734

If you haven't cheated on her and she just wants a divorce, she would have to rely on your "unreasonable behaviour" and that it caused your marriage to irretrievably break down! Unless she proves your behaviour (to which you can object at the hearing) she cannot just wish to divorce cause she doesn't like you anymore! Think about this and as I said, you can satisfy her requests only after she has provided you with the CERTIFIED (at the solicitor's office/commissioner for oaths) copies of the above docs.

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:45 am

@mcovet:
This is the main reason why she wants divorce in the egyptian embassy, as it is quick and no reasons should be provided. Whatever happens, she is not going to help she even said I will make your life tough!
I'm so fed up with her attitude and that's why I want to find a way without her help

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:11 am

Guerro wrote:@mcovet:
This is the main reason why she wants divorce in the egyptian embassy, as it is quick and no reasons should be provided. Whatever happens, she is not going to help she even said I will make your life tough!
I'm so fed up with her attitude and that's why I want to find a way without her help

I think mccovet's point is that she wants it (1) quick and easy but (2) does not want to help. If she realizes that it can only be quick and easy if she does help, then she might be more cooperative.

ribena · Post by **ribena** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:14 am

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:
ribena wrote:I have my Decree Absolute from a UK court a few months ago, and I was told that I need do dissolve my marriage at my country embassy or go back home and do it. If I don't, then I am still 'married' on paper for my home country!
Who told you this? And what is your home country?

There are certainly some countries where you register your marriage if you are a citizen and living abroad. Colombia and France and maybe Germany come to mind. I am not sure what you need to do if you divorce. And even the UK allows British citizens who have married abroad to "deposit" their Marriage Certificate with the GRO. Again not clear what happens if you subsequently divorce.

Hi
My country embassy(Malaysia), the Ministry of Marriage and National Registration, Ministry of Foreign Affairs ( If I were to initiated my divorce in Malaysia - to get whatever paper ended to be legalised etc) and solictors back home.

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:22 pm

I forgot to tell you something about my situation as I don't know if it is relevant or not:
My family in egypt dishonoured and disinherited me because of my marriage. A court order announcing their decision was issued in Cairo in 2010.
Is it relevant to either divorce or retention of rights?
Many thanks to everyone

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:37 pm

Guerro wrote:I forgot to tell you something about my situation as I don't know if it is relevant or not:
My family in egypt dishonoured and disinherited me because of my marriage. A court order announcing their decision was issued in Cairo in 2010.
Is it relevant to either divorce or retention of rights?
Many thanks to everyone

Not clear. It is definitely worth mentioning to your divorce solicitor and/or your immigration solicitor if you eventually need them.

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:53 pm

@directive/ 2004 /38 /ec:
How is it going to help with either divorce or retention?
On a side note, you mentioned solicitor! Do I really need one or things can be done without any need for a solicitor?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:09 pm

Guerro wrote:@directive/ 2004 /38 /ec:
How is it going to help with either divorce or retention?
On a side note, you mentioned solicitor! Do I really need one or things can be done without any need for a solicitor?

I have never gotten divorced (and really know very little about the process), but I believe that generally you need a solicitor.

For subsequent immigration applications, I persoanlly think it depends on what you are doing and how complicated it is. A simple RC or EEA FP application very rarely needs a solicitor, though some people use one even for those. A RoR application is a little more complicated, but I would personally do my own because I think I know enough. But people who do not have the knowledge will often find it easier to have help. And I would probably usually recommend appeals be done with a Solicitor, unless somebody is very knowledgeable or does not have the money for a professional help.

mcovet · Post by **mcovet** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:13 pm

Guerro wrote:I forgot to tell you something about my situation as I don't know if it is relevant or not:
My family in egypt dishonoured and disinherited me because of my marriage. A court order announcing their decision was issued in Cairo in 2010.
Is it relevant to either divorce or retention of rights?
Many thanks to everyone

The above info in now way, shape or form can affect any of your rights even if half the Egypt dishonoured you.

As regards getting a solicitor. Getting divorced in UK is easy and doesn't require a solicitor if both the parties agree and also have no issues with the financial provisions. Even then, you can get divorced and after that start dealing with the financial aspects of the marriage. This is called an ancillary hearing, which is separate from the actual fact of divorce. So, you can get divorced without the need for a solicitor and then employ one should you have assets to divide etc.

I just googled this and found basic info on ancillary relief for you. http://www.sharingpensions.co.uk/marbreak4.htm

As I said, divorcing is straightforward but for financial matters you may need the help of a professional to get you the best possible deal (although most of the time it's "50/50" division or as they call it a fair division between the spouses).

And as I said before, don't worry about the egyptian embassy divorce, you tell her that if she wants the real divorce, she must cooperate and provide certain docs for you to make certified copies of and then you would consent to divorcing her in UK courts.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:47 pm

Forget the Egyptian divorce. If you are resident in the UK you or your wife could initiate proceedings (your retained residence rights would start from then).

What do you want to do? If you want a divorce, best start it yourself and you can choose which court suits. If you don't and she does, then letting her make the move buys you time towards PR, but risks her picking the court. If it's a court in the EU, then first in has jurisdiction, many may well have residence requirements as well.

If you both want to divorce, then sit down and decide how best to do it. Co-operation will result in a quicker less messier outcome and you can ask for the required documents.

Do you have children? If yes, this will complicate the divorce as the court will want to ensure that their needs are met.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:56 pm

mcovet wrote:
Guerro wrote:I forgot to tell you something about my situation as I don't know if it is relevant or not:
My family in egypt dishonoured and disinherited me because of my marriage. A court order announcing their decision was issued in Cairo in 2010.
Is it relevant to either divorce or retention of rights?
The above info in now way, shape or form can affect any of your rights even if half the Egypt dishonoured you.

The question was marked in bold. And I have to say that I do not know.

I think what mcovet says is that it will not have any negative effect in the UK, and I suspect that is correct. If might possibly be that being "dishonored and disinherited" could in some circumstances be useful positive evidence in some immigration applications.

In any case, it is unlikely that it can be used positively, and is not worth talking more about right now.

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:05 am

We don't have children at the moment and no financial disputes, thanks God. We will discuss divorce in details end of november as agreed, but as I know her she is not going to give me original or certified copies of her documents.
I have proof of cohabitation for 2 and half years, proof of me working, photocopy of her pr and passport, the original letter sent with the pr to prove she is now a permanent resident. I believe her pr grants her status as qualified person for two years and it was issued in feb 2011. If divorce is not finalised in feb 2013, ukba can argue that I have to prove she continues to be a permanent resident. So, I believe if divorce is finalised in few months, the letter confirming her pr should suffice.
Did I get it right?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:40 am

Guerro wrote:We don't have children at the moment and no financial disputes, thanks God. We will discuss divorce in details end of november as agreed, but as I know her she is not going to give me original or certified copies of her documents.
I have proof of cohabitation for 2 and half years, proof of me working, photocopy of her pr and passport, the original letter sent with the pr to prove she is now a permanent resident. I believe her pr grants her status as qualified person for two years and it was issued in feb 2011. If divorce is not finalised in feb 2013, ukba can argue that I have to prove she continues to be a permanent resident. So, I believe if divorce is finalised in few months, the letter confirming her pr should suffice.
Did I get it right?

Very impressive! This sounds convincing to me at least!

UKBA has their own records of your wife's PR status, and she would only loose if she is away from the UK for two consecutive years.

The letter from UKBA is in itself not proof, but you should include a copy of it and indicate that they have in their files the details of her PR status.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:03 pm

Have your plan of action in place. A negotiated settlement could include her providing the required evidence on demand for the purposes of your PR application. At the end of the day, you'll most likely end up negotiating.

Remember that it's the commencement of proceedings that starts the retained right of residence clock, though you would be in limbo until divorce is actually finalised (they don't half make it easy, eh).

Post by **Obie** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:28 pm

EUsmileWEallsmile wrote:
Remember that it's the commencement of proceedings that starts the retained right of residence clock, though you would be in limbo until divorce is actually finalised (they don't half make it easy, eh).

I am not sure this is correct , as far as the UKBA interpretation and Diatta Judgement are concerned anyway.

The directive says prior to the commencement of divorce, but the Regulations considers that the person is a family member, in accordance with diatta, up until the decree absolute is passed.

They express it as restrictively as they want. On the one hand, you cannot claim retained rights unless the marriage has lasted for three years, however you are considered a family member until the decree absolute is passed.

Why they don't count the duration of the marriage from the start to the Decree absolute, is beyond me.

If you are going to abide by the directive, you either do it entirely, or not at all, you don't pick what suits you, and drop the one that doesn't.

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:35 pm

I'm just trying to make divorce in a uk court first, as she listens to friends and non professional advice. Last night, we were talking and amongst the noise she mentioned court and unacceptable behaviour which is good news!
If I speak about settlement and documents she will see a solicitor and ask him what is the best way to HARM ME. As I know her, she will back up to france for a couple of years to lose her pr status and then file for divorce and I will be in a legal vaccum.
That's why i'm trying to make a quite divorce and then apply for retention with the documents I have. As directive 2004 38 ec said that my explanation sounds impressive, which I hope to impress the caseworker, my main concern now is to get divorced while she is in the uk as a pr holder/ qualified person.
Then, I start my journey with ukba and try to impress them

What do you think?

Guerro · Post by **Guerro** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:38 pm

Talking about dates, do I meet the condition of three years plus for retention or not?
Please check my first post in this thread

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:53 pm

Guerro wrote:If I speak about settlement and documents she will see a solicitor and ask him what is the best way to HARM ME. As I know her, she will back up to france for a couple of years to lose her pr status and then file for divorce and I will be in a legal vaccum.

Impressive! Both that she knows so much about EU free movement law, and that you mean so much to her that she would go out of her way for years to "hurt you".

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Non eea Divorce from eea spouse