Government launches consultation on family route

[MWill]

Really, wine every night? What were you drinking because last time I checked a cheap bottle of vino was circa. £5.00? (I use it for cooking) You also didn't mobile phone bills for 2 people, occassional transport costs, insurance (household I am assuming you dont own!) lunches whilst at work, clothes ( we need to put clothes on our backs, no?) holidays, things for the home, going out to the movies and for dinner (dinner and the movies can cost nearly or over £100)...bowling, enjoying life etc etc.

Your "life" isnt a "life" if you can "exist" off what you do, but maybe life is different in your home countries, this is the UK, not Pakistan or India, dont expect the government to set its standards by yours!

As for splitting up families, there is nothing stopping you from joining your new wife in your home country...It's your choice after to come to the UK..

As for your assumption most couples dont bring in more than 20K outside of London, that must be your social circle, my friends in couples bring in at least £70K and we all live in Manchester which is well outside of London, its more a reflecton of who you know and you are all immigrants, then I doubt you are the "highly skilled migrants" the last government opened its doors to! Thank god it shut them!

People like you make me angry because you give such a false perception of the UK...

"People like me"? By that you mean natural born British citizens, then? I'm the sponsor, a British citizen since birth. My wife is American. Savvy?

And you're still wrong. I earn £17,500 a year at the moment, and we DO have enough money for everything we want, and live happily. Our hobbies and interests are pretty low cost - not everyone WANTS to go to the movies and out to dinner every week. We do have plenty of savings if we need them, but rarely do.

As for your friends bringing in 70k, that certainly explains much about your vision of this country. Remember that the average UK salary is 25k - that means half of people in the UK earn LESS than 25k.

I don't think I'm the one with the perception problem here.

[GrahamD85]

Dinner and the movies costs £100?! Are you eating at Grill on the Alley or Gaucho every night and ordering kobe beef? Manchester doesn't have that many high-end restaurants - I live here too.

I recommend Orange Wednesdays - 2 for 1 at the flicks and Pizza Express, a lot less than £20 each for dinner and a film. Bargain!

MWill is right about the average wage being under 25k. Last time I checked it was actually around 20k. You obviously have a good job, so be thankful you earn more than the rest of us and don't rub it in our faces in a time where having any kind of decent paid job is a minor miracle. It's insulting and unnecessary.

[geriatrix]

Peoples' perception and experience of "cost of living" are different, and is not the subject of the topic.

May I suggest that members posting in the topic restrict their posts to the subject of the topic rather than digressing the discussion to "prove their point / experience / perception", and also refrain from making comments that may be considered inappropriate.

[navalaviator]

Well all of us who are granted spouse visas before the new rules which are due next year are supposed to apply for the ILR after a period of two years and this is what we paid for I mean a heavy Settlement visa fee and we are issued spouse visas with a view of settlement after a two years probationary period not after ridiculous 5 years,if new rules come into force then they will most probably not affect the people who are already en route to Apply ILR because we had paid massive visa fees for spouse settlement visas with a view of ILR after 2 years and not for the FLR after 2 years,in my case I paid Settlement visa fee (Fiancé' visa) and then I registered marriage and applied for FLR which cost me £850(in person) so altogether fiancé visa, marriage registration,TB test certificate, English language test and the Spouse visa etc. has cost me well over £2000 pounds (not including travel costs etc.)

so lets say that if new rules come into force in April next year so will it be fair to press the people who are already on spouse visas granted before the new rule to apply for an FLR for further 3 years to make up a 5 year period before we could apply for ILR??? if yes then it means that we will have to pay for FLR and then for the ILR and then the citizenship!!! and hang on do we have to pass the Life in the UK test to apply for the FLR for 3 years before we become eligible for the ILR?????

David Cameron has already said in his speech that out of 500 sample cases 70% had income less than £20,000 which clearly shows that more than 70% of the people who will apply ILR after the new rules do not fulfil the income threshold requirement so a huge proportion of people automatically become ineligible for ILR if the new rules apply to the people granted visas before the new rules come into force then most of us do not fulfil the required proposed figure of £20,000 after tax.???????
Some body who posted an email from immigration minister on the previous page says that there will be Transitional arrangements for the people who are on visas issued before the new ILR rules which is just a ray of light which suggests that we will escape the new rules.

Any changes to the Immigration Rules arising from the consultation are due to be implemented in April 2012. We are looking closely at what transitional arrangements should be put in place for those granted a family visa or leave to remain before the changes come into force.

But at the same time the following paragraph from the consultation doc says the following which is quite confusing because does it mean do we have to extend visa to 3 years before we can apply for the ILR after the new rules are implemented or does it suggest that the people who will be issued visas after the new rules will have to apply for an extension of 3 years to make up a 5 years period as they would be issued a 2 year visa initially and then they will have to extend to further 3 years to complete the 5 years??????

2.35 This will bring the family route in line with other routes which lead to settlement. We will consider whether the spouse or partner should be required to apply to the UK Border Agency after 2 or 3 years to extend the period to 5 years. We will consider whether any transitional arrangements should apply to this change.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... migration/

So I conclude that the new rules will not apply to the people holding visas issued before the new rule as the spouse settlement visa fee with view of settlement after 2 years+£20,000 income req. which most of us don't fulfil+transitional arrangements hint by immigration boss and in the consultation doc all add up to create a significant doubt that new rules will be implemented to the people with visas issued prior to the implementation of new rules as the above mentioned factors contribute to the probability that we might be lucky to escape the new draconian laws.

Also don't forget that there are talks of ''reforming'' the article 8 of human right act which could be a move to remove the last resort of most of the people who if cannot fulfil the rules will have no support at there backs which could stop the family split up arising due to the new legislation.
So it may be possible that the the new transformed article 8 act might not be as strong to save the people from a split up.

[secretmsg]

When i got my 2years spouse visa,received other few notes in which it stated that:

""WHEN AND HOW CAN I APPLY FOR INDEFINITE LEAVE TO REMAIN?

In order to qualify for settlement you must have completed a period of 2 years in the United Kingdom as spouse..................................""

So even if changes are implemented of 5 Years visa SHOULD be for new applicants and not for existing spouse / partner visa,all i want to say is this letter is of course not an agreement but written note that home office mentioned with other points and guidance,will this letter be any helpful to us to challenge if they change the period from 2 years to 5 years?

[barker]

Well they also state that any application for residency will be judged based on the rules in place at the time that the application is made.

I am hoping that they will make transitionary arrangements for people like us if they decide to extend the eligibility period.

[Aryan2013]

"A minimum salary of between £18,600 and £25,700 before tax should be introduced for UK residents sponsoring a partner or dependent for citizenship, the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) recommended today."

"A salary threshold of £18,600 would reduce settlement through the family route by 45 per cent, the MAC estimates. A minimum of £25,700 would reduce it by 63 per cent."

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... mily-route

As it is clear from the MAC report, poor, disabled, et al should not be allowed to sponser their spouses

I am wondering, where is the fairness in all this??

[Aryan2013]

"Up to half the working population of Britain are to be banned from bringing a foreign-born wife or husband into the country under proposals being considered by the Home Office."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/1 ... spouses-uk

[aosun007]

http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/22232/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... eform.html

[aosun007]

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/arti ... itain.html

[Asgard]

"A minimum salary of between £18,600 and £25,700 before tax should be introduced for UK residents sponsoring a partner or dependent for citizenship, the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) recommended today."

"A salary threshold of £18,600 would reduce settlement through the family route by 45 per cent, the MAC estimates. A minimum of £25,700 would reduce it by 63 per cent."

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... mily-route

As it is clear from the MAC report, poor, disabled, et al should not be allowed to sponser their spouses

I am wondering, where is the fairness in all this??

So myself being on DLA (middle rate care, low rate mobility) and recently put into the support group for ESA means myself and my partner are totally stuffed with no hope of her being able to come and live here with me according to all this?

We haven't got married yet, although we've been planning it. My partner is currently getting the English certificate required for the application, but with a view to getting the business English level one above and beyond what's required to improve her chances of getting a good job here later on. She is in a good job in Hong Kong and plans to buy a house here and then move here after getting married and building up some more funds in the bank but it all seems it's going to be for naught now!


Asgard

[mundauk]

EU Migration: Family life is a right for migrants too - how to ensure it?


Is there a need to change the EU rules on family reunification of migrants? Today, the Commission launched a public debate on the right to family reunification of third-country nationals living in the EU.


Depending on the outcome of the consultation, the Commission will decide whether any policy follow-up is necessary – such as setting up clear guidelines, modifying the current rules or leaving the legislation as it is. Stakeholders and the general public are invited to have their say at ec.europa.eu/yourvoice. The background and contact details can also be found here.

Since 2003, common EU rules specify the conditions under which family members of a non-EU citizen, legally resident in a Member State, are allowed to enter and reside in the EU.

"Family reunification gives immigrants the possibility to have a family life and helps their integration into society", underlined Cecilia Malmström, Commissioner for Home Affairs. "I hope that all stakeholders will participate in the consultation, and share their experiences and opinions on how to have more effective rules on family reunification. Member States are especially invited to outline and quantify the problems they claim to have with abuse of the current rules," she added.

The Green Paper focuses on a number of questions arising from the application of Directive 2003/86/EC. All stakeholders are now invited to reply – before 1 March 2012 - to questions such as:

*

To whom the directive should apply: How to best define the migrants who benefit from the EU rules; whether the right to family reunification should be extended to other family members, outside than the core family; the problems experienced with forced marriages;
*

The conditions for family reunification: Whether the integration measures that Member States are allowed to introduce need to be further specified; whether safeguards should be foreseen to ensure that such measures really foster integration and are not used as barriers to family reunification;
*

Ways of tackling possible fraud and marriages of convenience;
*

The functioning of certain obligations for Member States, such as taking the best interest of children into account when examining an application.

The Commission intends to organise a public hearing after having received written contributions.

The general public are invited to have their say at
http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/news/c ... 023_en.htm

[tier1toSpouse]

Hi

Has anyone heard about any updates on these propoded changes? What chanfes are going to be implemented n when?

Thanks

[GrahamD85]

I think there's a good chance those already enroute to ILR will be affected, such as myself. The government, according to the letter I received on behalf of Damian Green when I wrote to my MP, are considering a transition period. However, in the past they've made big changes to rules and have only issued a transition period of a month or two. We're applying in September 2012 but I think this will affect us.

I earn enough to fall just within the start of the proposed threshold but I doubt they'll actually set it at the lower end of the recommendation - why exclude 45% of the population when you can exclude over 60%? I've got some savings and I'm currently trying to get my girlfriend's name on the account, but I hope the new rules at least take into account the wage of the applicant if they're applying from inside the UK and working. I doubt they could refuse a couple where the sponsor doesn't meet the minimum income but the applicant's wages mean the couple more than meet it.

I do think it's madness though and I wonder how far this will go and whether it actually will become a new rule. I'm not sure how this gets passed, but I presume parliament has to vote on it? If that's the case there'll surely be some disagreement from the Lib Dems. Considering they're all Cameron's slaves and can't seem to make good on any promises though I'm not holding out much hope.

[krs133]

The MAC report does say something like that there is "a case for" including the non-EU partner's income where they are present and working in the UK or have a secure job offer. I'd put it more strongly: there are many aspects of this government's immigration policies which are stupid and vindictive, but excluding the non-EU partner's income in FLR/ILR applications would just be bizarre.

As for the Lib Dems, they seem to be regrettably soporific on this. I would have thought a party with the word liberal in its name could be easily persuaded that these plans are inappropriate. Without a Lib Dem MP, though, who should I write to?

[Asgard]

I think there's a good chance those already enroute to ILR will be affected, such as myself.

Basically if this comes into force, it's the end for anyone who doesn't earn enough. Even if we got married tomorrow for example, with this transition period, it could mean it wouldn't make any difference. Especially as my partner doesn't work here but overseas.

I suppose on reflection would our partners really feel comfortable in country where the government and a fair number of people obviously don't want them and resent them coming? Perhaps the only alternative is for the UK resident to leave the UK and we're the ones who'll need to apply for immigration! How ironic.

Not that I and many others in a similar situation stand much chance even with that given health conditions. We'd probably fail any foreign immigration medical and if there's no NHS type system, then healthcare costs could be prohibitive.

All in all the situation is looking terminal for many of us, employed or not. Let's hope somehow this gets challenged in the courts.


Asgard

[barker]

Hi All,

I was unable to make out for sure if this applied to all routes or to specific routes. I see that on page 30, point 3.12 it states "The family migration route does not include dependants of migrants in other routes (for example, Tier 2)"

But then again if they are talking about the possibility including an applicant's UK income then it could mean that this includes people dependants who are here under FLR and applying for ILR after the 2 year period as well, rather than just apply to fresh applications from April 2012 onwards.

Any thoughts on this

[krs133]

Further to the discussion on whether the applicant's income will be taken into account in FLR/ILR applications, this is from the MAC report:

4.20 A further issue to consider is whether and how to take into account the future earnings of the sponsored migrant, as well as the income of the sponsor, when calculating income to be assessed against the maintenance threshold. In principle, there is a strong case for doing this because it is total household earnings that will determine whether the household is a burden on the state, rather than simply the sponsor‟s earnings.

4.21 Estimating future earnings of the sponsored migrant will often involve taking into account income earned previously outside of the UK. At the time that the maintenance test is applied, members of the sponsor‟s family, including the sponsor, may either be in the UK or abroad. As discussed in Chapter 3, in the vast majority of cases the sponsor resides in the UK at the time of the application, while the applicant is usually outside of the UK. Therefore, in practice, including only income received in the UK will mean that, in the majority of cases, the calculation would include only the sponsor‟s income.

4.22 In such cases as above, taking account of the income of the sponsored migrant would require assumptions regarding the extent to which past income, earned abroad, is likely to predict future income, earned in the UK. As discussed in relation to the Tier 1 General route (since closed to new applicants) in Migration Advisory Committee (2009a) and Migration Advisory Committee (2010), such calculations are subject to substantial risks and uncertainties.

4.23 Therefore, in our analysis, we have assumed that only income received by the sponsor in the UK is included in the calculation of the sponsor’s family’s income when assessing the maintenance threshold.

Clear as mud, but I take it from this that if the couple are both currently working in the UK, MAC thinks it reasonable that both their incomes be taken into account.[/i]

[mundauk]

When will this become law?

[GrahamD85]

Further to the discussion on whether the applicant's income will be taken into account in FLR/ILR applications, this is from the MAC report:

4.20 A further issue to consider is whether and how to take into account the future earnings of the sponsored migrant, as well as the income of the sponsor, when calculating income to be assessed against the maintenance threshold. In principle, there is a strong case for doing this because it is total household earnings that will determine whether the household is a burden on the state, rather than simply the sponsor‟s earnings.

4.21 Estimating future earnings of the sponsored migrant will often involve taking into account income earned previously outside of the UK. At the time that the maintenance test is applied, members of the sponsor‟s family, including the sponsor, may either be in the UK or abroad. As discussed in Chapter 3, in the vast majority of cases the sponsor resides in the UK at the time of the application, while the applicant is usually outside of the UK. Therefore, in practice, including only income received in the UK will mean that, in the majority of cases, the calculation would include only the sponsor‟s income.

4.22 In such cases as above, taking account of the income of the sponsored migrant would require assumptions regarding the extent to which past income, earned abroad, is likely to predict future income, earned in the UK. As discussed in relation to the Tier 1 General route (since closed to new applicants) in Migration Advisory Committee (2009a) and Migration Advisory Committee (2010), such calculations are subject to substantial risks and uncertainties.

4.23 Therefore, in our analysis, we have assumed that only income received by the sponsor in the UK is included in the calculation of the sponsor’s family’s income when assessing the maintenance threshold.

Clear as mud, but I take it from this that if the couple are both currently working in the UK, MAC thinks it reasonable that both their incomes be taken into account.[/i]

Yeah, from what I could gather from that, and from flicking through it today, it seems MAC is advising that a household income should take into account both sponsor and applicant if they're both working in the UK. In the points below it they're basically saying the majority of applicants will be applying from outside the UK and therefore the income they're advising on will take only the sponsor into account as this situation will be the most common when these rules first come in.

As you said earlier, not counting the income of both sponsor and applicant if they work in the UK would be insane!

[beatboy]

Today I am going to write an email to my MP and try to show how the new income levels will make many people unable to come back to the UK with their non EU wife and I suggest all UK residents do the same. It surely can do no harm.

[mundauk]

Today I am going to write an email to my MP and try to show how the new income levels will make many people unable to come back to the UK with their non EU wife and I suggest all UK residents do the same. It surely can do no harm.

Send me a copy of the letter please.

[krs133]

I would especially encourage people to write if they have a Lib Dem MP as they have been rather quiet on the family migration issue but would, I suspect, be susceptible to pressure as the proposals are so obviously illiberal. The plans would need a vote in both Houses of Parliament so if enough noise is made at least the LDs will know that people are watching how they vote.

[beatboy]

I have sent a copy of my letter to my local MP. If anyone wants to use parts of it for there own use please PM me. I'm not sure its a good idea to post it live on this forum but if people think it is OK I will do it. Also, I have quite a lot of experience in formal letter writing so if anyone needs a letter to their PM checking I will try and help them.

For anyone who doesn't know how to write to their MP (like I didn't 2 hours ago!) here is the process:

1) Write your letter in a polite and formal tone and try to make it as brief and to the point as possible. In your letter I think its a good idea to ask for something. In my case I asked my MP to contact the Home Secretary with my concerns.
2) Visit http://www.writetothem.com and type in your postcode and follow the links to find your MP.
3) Write your message and then preview it before you send it (I always think its a good idea for someone else to check it first).
4) Press send. The writetothem.com website will them email you to ask for confirmation via a new link (check your junk box as that is where my confirmation email arrived). You must do this process or it will not be sent.

I know that I am new on here but I am incensed by yesterday's announcement and want to do anything I can to create a groundswell and make the people who work for us (i.e the politicians) realise that these changes are unacceptable for hard working, genuine families. I think we should consider all avenues to get the message across and any ideas on here of a campaign of action would be welcome. I am currently thinking of contacting my local press but unsure of the best way to go about it. Any ideas?

[geriatrix]

beatboy, you may post the template here (preferably with any personal details omitted).

Keep a note of the page no. within the topic when you post the template. Whenever someone asks for it, direct them to the page no. (rather than posting the template time and again).